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Old 09/13/2017, 12:24 AM   #26
TimmyD16
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Any newer LED boards out there similar to the Luxeon K16? I like that setup but not too sure about buying randoms off of flea-bay...


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Old 09/13/2017, 12:51 AM   #27
lingwendil
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Sort of... Citizen makes one that is similar, but I can only find it at RapidLED (and their sister sites) that should prove pretty good-

http://www.rapidled.com/citizen-roya...8-1212cf-b455/

At four times the price (nearly) I haven't been in a hurry to grab any, especially considering that outside of rapid/menari or COBkits I can't find any sources in the US that stock them. If the quality is like the other chips from Citizen they should be a great choice though.


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Old 09/13/2017, 12:16 PM   #28
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www.lumileds.com/uploads/600/DS162-pdf


Listed replacement series for k16 but don't see any Royal Blue..


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Old 09/13/2017, 12:44 PM   #29
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Royal blue (and colours) is just not where the main development interest is at the mo

Tim


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Old 09/13/2017, 03:10 PM   #30
lingwendil
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Unfortunately. I've got a couple K16 on the way to play with. The Citizen Royal blue is supposed to be a current production part, but it's hard to find for some reason outside of the sources listed earlier. I might shoot them a line asking for stocking distributors.


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Old 09/13/2017, 05:49 PM   #31
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I was surprised when Cree did the XP-G3 royal blue, but you can tell it was only because they could, not that they wanted to (poor level of info in the datasheet and not on the PCT)...

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Old 09/13/2017, 10:46 PM   #32
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For sure, it seems like colors are more of an after-thought currently...


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Old 09/14/2017, 12:26 AM   #33
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Yup. The last couple years it seems that high CRI or specialty whites (geared towards specific products and displays) have been the big push, and finding ways to increase efficiency and thermal performance. Remote phosphor stuff is slowly scooting along as well.


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Old 09/14/2017, 01:40 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perkint View Post
Tried to find the performance data for the Luxeons the other day, but as they don't seem to list it on their site, I failed Doesn't help that I didn't/don't know which is the best performer (in light output per watt terms)...

Tim
Luxeon Rebel color line Datasheet-

https://www.lumileds.com/uploads/265/DS68-pdf

Quote from StevesLEDs-

- Radiometric Output - 1,300mw @ 700ma and 1,755mw @ 1000ma! (Datasheet, Figure 12)




Some sort-of-on-topic opinions, since we are on the topic of cluster-based builds still...

Personally, I love the Luxeon Royal blues, and no longer use Cree for royal blue at all, due to the rather nontrivial difference in efficiency/output. I like the Colors that cree do (the regular blue 475nm from them is more "blue" and less cyan looking than the usual available blue bins from places like steves) but with some work you can get similar offerings as far as desired color bins if you ask around. Steves will do an alternative blue bin that specs around 475-480nm (bin 4) versus the listed 470-480nm (H4E?), but it doesn't help much, so for regular blues I like Cree, but I like the Luxeon Cyans a little better at the usual 495nm-500nm, versus the Cree cyan ("turquoise")at 495 having a sharper peak and less spread... Cyan and Blue will help level out the pink/purple tone that LED setups get when based on royal blue and neutral/warm white (or cool white with added red) alone. They also help with coloration, fluorescence, and photosynthesis. If you look at the graphs for most white LEDs you will see a big dip right in the area that blue/cyan cover, so It's a good idea to fill it in.

Deep red can be useful for some, and many will buy into the (IMHO) myth that they promote algae growth (I haven't experienced it, but many claim they do) but I believe they aren't necessary for growth of corals unless your base white is lacking in this area to begin with, IE when your whites are 6500K or any other Cool White nonsense from some random seller (like the 10,000-20,000k whites sold as bridgelux/epistar or in the cheap chinese multichips on fleabay) or generic stuff. Use a good neutral white (or certain warm whites) with high CRI and you will usually be covered pretty well in this area, and get much better color to go with it. I would however add that reds can be useful for tuning color, and any well-rounded fixture that can fit another channel for controlling them should at least entertain the idea of adding them at least in very small numbers. On larger fixtures they blend easier, on smaller fixtures they are harder to mix well.

Far red I put in the same category as deep red. While useful, pick a good base white and the same reasoning applies. Could easily add it to the same channel as deep red and use it for tuning.

Lime is an awesome addition to most any fixture, especially blue heavy ones. in conjunction with regular blue and cyan, it will completely counteract that pink/purple undertone some setups get from a base of neutral/warm white with a bunch of royal blues. It is also a great way to increase visual brightness of the fixture without affecting the perceived color temperature/tone of the light, while also having a minimal impact on PAR. Particularly useful on tanks that need a crisp white look when already blue heavy.

And as earlier, I think a high CRI neutral or warm white (my preference is to a 4000k neutral) is what your setup should be based on. Cree an LumiLEDs both offer decent high CRI options, with LumiLEDs leading Cree in this regard, but there are better options at better price points in the stuff from Citizen, Bridgelux, and Luminus Devices for our uses.



All that having been said, next fixture I'm putting together (for a budget "display" frag setup dual PAR cannon!) will be (tentatively)

Two clusters each of-

Citizen 4000k 97CRI CLU028 (running at 300mA, for about 10w) (I may do a 90CRI 4000k Vero on the other side, just for experimenting, or possibly a 3000k white)
Luxeon K16 Royal blue array (running at 500mA-1000mA depending on how it all does)
Luxeon Rebel Lime
Luxeon Rebel Cyan
Cree Blue x2 (maybe 3)
SemiLEDs Violet U70 x2
SemiLEDs Violet U60 (may replace all SemiLEDs violets with a single Luxeon "UV" 420-430nm, or a single 3-up from StevesLEDs)

Should work great on a 20 Long or similarly shaped tank! Probably even enough for LPS and some less demanding to moderate SPS in something like a 30 Breeder or 40 Breeder if I crank those K16s up to 1 amp!



Last edited by lingwendil; 09/14/2017 at 04:35 PM. Reason: edit
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Old 09/14/2017, 03:15 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lingwendil View Post
Luxeon Rebel color line Datasheet-

https://www.lumileds.com/uploads/265/DS68-pdf

Quote from StevesLEDs-

- Radiometric Output - 1,300mw @ 700ma and 1,755mw @ 1000ma! (Datasheet, Figure 12)
Thanks for that

The datasheet suggests the highest output royal blue is 1100mW at 700mA (slightly less than an XT-E (1178mW) although the Cree chip would be slightly higher fV (3.2V vs about 2.95V) so slightly more power). Wish Cree would put the XP-G3 into the PCT!

Tim


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Old 09/14/2017, 04:11 PM   #36
lingwendil
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Looking from the graphs the Luxeon Royal Blue sits about 1350mW output or so at 1A (assuming proper/adequate cooling) with a 3.00V drop, and I like them around 700-1000mA assuming your heatsink can take it. The lower voltage drop is worth it for a bit better efficiency.

Also, In my experience the Luxeon can take higher temperatures before output suffers, but they are less tolerant of overdriving them the way the Crees are, which is a non issue usually if you design your rig right.



Last edited by lingwendil; 09/14/2017 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Edit
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Old 09/15/2017, 01:07 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by lingwendil View Post
Some sort-of-on-topic opinions, since we are on the topic of cluster-based builds still...
Some AMAZING information lingwendil! Thank you for offering you knowledge and experience!


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Old 09/15/2017, 06:42 AM   #38
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Also, In my experience the Luxeon can take higher temperatures before output suffers, but they are less tolerant of overdriving them the way the Crees are, which is a non issue usually if you design your rig right.
I did notice the drop off from temp was quite flat. The thermal efficiency of them is nowhere near as good as the Crees but then it doesn't need to be when it has less effect!

As you say, overdriving (by accident) shouldn't really happen

Tim


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Old 09/15/2017, 09:46 AM   #39
lingwendil
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Originally Posted by TimmyD16 View Post
Some AMAZING information lingwendil! Thank you for offering you knowledge and experience!
No problem. I've been building my own rigs since before there were any commercial offerings, and have worked with testing and repairing units for years. I keep getting told to write up a guide, but the industry is always changing so I just lay down some info now and then, and I'm always learning new things too. I may be opinionated, but I think I have a good knowledge base to form my reasoning, and have had a ton of experience finding what does and doesn't work. Recently I took up the freshwater side of lighting, and its just as fun.

Oh, adding to the above... run violets. Often erroneously referred to as UV (even the manufacturers do it, but whatever) you want 400-430nm on these, with the common and most useful being in the 415-420nm range. The most common and probably easiest to source is the popular "hyper violet" from LED g r o u p b u y, or the ones from Steve's LEDs. The 415-420nm SemiLEDs U70 bin is the most common, and works great in 95% of builds, although you see 400-410nm U50 bins, they have less output. Run one per each white is a good starting point for larger arrays, especially considering that you run less white than other colors. Also, some people really load up the violets, and while it works, I personally wouldn't get to crazy as it can really blast your tank with PAR, so for clams and SPS I would, but not for a moderately lit setup. Like my example for my next build posted earlier, I think 2-3 per array would be plenty, but if doing SPS dominant I would probably go 4-5. I've never noticed a huge difference in running a whole pile of them, but have noticed a difference when adding them to an existing array in low numbers.



Last edited by lingwendil; 09/15/2017 at 10:26 AM. Reason: Edit
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Old 09/15/2017, 03:47 PM   #40
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Good advice

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Old 09/29/2017, 01:23 PM   #41
lingwendil
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Slightly excited so I'm reviving this to show some testing-

Citizen CLU028 97CRI 4000k Neutral White (11.4 watts at 38volts, 300mA)

Luxeon Lime

Luxeon K16 Royal Blue (easy to find all over FleaBay, AliExpress, and similar sites, these are the real deal, just surplus) (for Toshiba remote phosphor fixture) these can do 45 watts of dissipation, for 23,000+mw of radiance!

Lashed up really quick on a RapidLED Premium Heatsink, white/lime driven in series at 300mA, royal blue at 700mA.




These suckers are very, very powerful, and the colors are fantastic. It has a very subtle hint of that pink/magenta look that will be easy to counteract with the other colors I will be adding to the array. The overall look is pretty close to a 12,000k halide, and much less pink than the picture shows-



Pardon my potato quality picture, it ended up very dark for some reason, and the color isn't true at all...


The plan is so far to add 2x violet, 4x cool/regular blue, 1 or 2x cyan, and build two total clusters, and it will end up over a 40breeder or similar size setup for a "display" frag setup. Even as a standalone setup it looks phenomenally better than the basic cool white/royal blue combo, and would do very well as an array on its own for a warmer desired look. This also blows away the "dream chip" types of multichips in cost and efficiency, as well as having nicer color, even unsupplemented.

The best part? Those K16 arrays are only $5 each shipped, and the Citizen whites are less than $8, although you could do similar quality with less CRI if you went with a Bridgelux Vero for $3.75 each, and end up with a very economical base set to build on with your other colors.


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Last edited by lingwendil; 09/29/2017 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 09/29/2017, 08:25 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lingwendil View Post
Slightly excited so I'm reviving this to show some testing-

Citizen CLU028 97CRI 4000k Neutral White (11.4 watts at 38volts, 300mA)

Luxeon Lime

Luxeon K16 Royal Blue...


...The plan is so far to add 2x violet, 4x cool/regular blue, 1 or 2x cyan, and build two total clusters, and it will end up over a 40breeder or similar size setup for a "display" frag setup. Even as a standalone setup it looks phenomenally better than the basic cool white/royal blue combo, and would do very well as an array on its own for a warmer desired look. This also blows away the "dream chip" types of multichips in cost and efficiency, as well as having nicer color, even unsupplemented.

The best part? Those K16 arrays are only $5 each shipped, and the Citizen whites are less than $8, although you could do similar quality with less CRI if you went with a Bridgelux Vero for $3.75 each, and end up with a very economical base set to build on with your other colors.
How is the blending on this smorgasbord when its all together?

I always thought this would make a super inexpensive build for really big tanks where you want to push out lots of light per LED grouping.


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Old 09/29/2017, 10:56 PM   #43
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How is the blending on this smorgasbord when its all together?

I always thought this would make a super inexpensive build for really big tanks where you want to push out lots of light per LED grouping.
Well, 6" above the waterline, and over my 12" tall 20 long it blends well. Once the other colors are added I can comment further, but I may end up using a diffusion panel of some sort so I don't have to hang the light so high.


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Last edited by lingwendil; 09/29/2017 at 11:14 PM.
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Old 10/22/2017, 10:34 PM   #44
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Another bump here with a tidbit/teaser of the build mentioned earlier-


image uploader


Just need to wire up the drivers and associated bits. Getting there slowly! Can't wait to test it out!


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Old 10/22/2017, 11:21 PM   #45
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That's looks like a legit light! what are the final diode selections?


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Old 10/22/2017, 11:43 PM   #46
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Heatsink- RapidLED 20" premium enclosure

Two clusters of the following emitters each-

1x Citizen CLU028 4000k, 97 CRI neutral white
1x Luxeon K16 royal blue
4x Luxeon Rebel ES true cool blue (470-480nm)
2x Luxeon Rebel ES cyan (one each from rapidLED, one from Steve's, not that it makes much difference)
2x SemiLEDs Hyper violet 3.0 (U70 bin, 415-425nm)
1x Luxeon Rebel lime

Total LED cost is just under $100 or so for both clusters, not factoring in shipping.

The plan so far is to drive most everything at 700mA, and the Citizens at 300mA.

The funny thing is, that I don't really have a tank in mind for it yet! I've got a 20 Long reef that I've been toying with upgrading to a 40 breeder, and I might just do it now. I'm thinking one of these rigs would be perfect over a 40 breeder or maybe even something bigger?

Maybe a 57? Those weird things with the 36x18 footprint? No idea. Either way I'll dim it down and run it on the 20 long and see how it does.


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Old 10/23/2017, 11:54 PM   #47
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What do you expected the consumed wattage to be?


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Old 10/24/2017, 12:06 PM   #48
lingwendil
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Ignoring the drivers, control, fan, etc, the LEDs themselves on both channels will pull-

Royal blue- 61.6w (700mA, 44v, x2 strings)
White- 22.8w (300mA, 38v, x2 strings)
Blue- 18.3w (700mA, 13.08v, x2 strings)
Cyan- 8.1w (700mA, 11.6v)
Violet- 5.2w (700mA, 14.8v)
Lime- 3.78w (700mA, 5.4v)

All combined is 108w total, and 84.4w will be on the white/royal base colors. White/royal will be on a 48V PSU with LDD-H drivers, everything else will be on a 19V PSU and run off of LDD-L drivers. This is of course assuming everything is running full blast, and it's not likely that I would run everything that high other than a few channels for tuning color. Each color is split out into its own channel, for six channels of adjustment. Should be pretty rad

Might get a little tight for wiring, I really could use a PCB that had 8 drivers on it that are functionally compatible with the LDD series, but the only source I know (O2surplus) has gone dark, so I'm trying to shoehorn everything in the fixture as is.

I'll try to tally up a parts list with prices soon. It's surprisingly cheap so far.

Should I start a new thread? This kind of snowballed into it's own project!


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Old 10/24/2017, 06:31 PM   #49
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That's up to you man! I'll gladly tag along if you do!


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Old 10/24/2017, 08:40 PM   #50
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5 pennies from designing a LED fixture:
1. make it is in standard way:
all drivers should be the same, like all of them 1000mA or all of them 700mA. It will save tons of time when one channel burn out.
2. About spectrum: somewhere here it was a nice article, in a short: usually 80% royal blue, cyan +red + white = 20%.
I'm actually constantly changing the spectrum because all day blue water is boring - we are enjoying the color of corals, right? So let's change the light to make it nice.
3. From datasheet they usually note the maximum current. So if it says 700mA - that means 700mA maximum if temperature of heatsink less then 60%. In other words if I have driver for 700mA I will chose LED for 1000mA just to have some buffer.
4. Heatsink should be big enough to release the heat from LED. So the heatsink should stay warm. Trying to minimize the size will require active air movement, that means noisy cooler.
For each cooler they usually note a nose in dB. Would say > 20dB is unacceptable. Also the size of cooler - the bigger the size the more air flow and less nose.
5. They recommend 5W per gallon. to reduce the light by dimming it is a 5 minute job, but to add some power is a big trouble. So it is better to have a buffer -the bigger the better. At least to make picture - nobody likes blue picture, so this 20% of red+cyan+white should be enough to make a nice daylight picture.


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