A warning about toxicity. A MUST read.

[kmk2307]

fmuakkassa,
I think you would be suprized with how much work has already been done on palytoxins. Check out the book I posted info on above if you are interested.

Kevin

[ez1ez]

Well I went to the MD because my hands were stiff and swollen. I thought it could be hypertension or high bloodpressure. I checked out fine the MD said if it doesn't go away in a few days go back. wel for the last month I have been handling about 100 zoo frags and glueing them to rocks. I have cut on my hands from Liverock. I'm wondering if zoo's have different potencies of toxins... hmmm. I just ordered some gloves from my neighbor who is a vet. So if my hands get better then I know... I will continue to read up on the toxins and possibly get a blood test to see if it shows up.

[Fido]

I've been using mid-forearm length nitrile (or some other glove compound)/rubber gloves for awhile whenever I stick my hands in the tank to touch anything. Learned my lesson after stocking my tank with LR with bare hands and had little cuts/sores from just about everything on em

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by Shlou
I've seen a lot on how dangerous this toxin is, but is there any danger of this toxin affecting other corals or fish in the tank? Just curious. If my zoos get upset one day and release toxin could it cause a system crash?

Are there any cases where 'fragging' these corals inside a reef aquarium have caused harm to fish or invertebrates?
{I realize that the 'proper' way to frag Zoanthids is outside the main display tank.}

[Los]

Folks-

Hold on a second. I think we need a quick Salinity check... er, I mean sanity check.

If these things were anywhere NEARLY that toxic, don't you think a few of us would be dead?

Sorry for the skepticism, but I wash my hands BEFORE handling my Zoos, so as not to poison them. I then gladly grab a bite of my Blimpee sandwhich or whatever else I'm snacking on and go on with my life. Sure, I wash my hands at some point, but not religiously and not right away. Do I have cuts on my fingers? Yup. So do most of you guys, especially after handling live rock. Do I have fish in my tanks that are still alive? Yup. So do most of you guys. Am I alive? My wife would argue about this one, but I can assure you...

Oh, and if you could "trip" off of these things, I would have learned about that one in Berkeley. Heck, as humans we consume all sorts of toxins for recreation - even licking toads. I'm not speaking from experience, but trust me, at Cal they have tried EVERYTHING.

All of the above reasons aside (and my being alive is pretty compelling evidence, imho), the most compelling reason that these things don't kill people is that they are sold without warning and have been for years. If they were that dangerous, this would be litigious dinamite and fish stores would be out of business.

Things that kill you when they are used in a normal manner tend to generate lawsuits. Seriously guys, think about it. Lawyers are suing places that sell things as toxic as... food (Burger King, etc).

Now, if you went and munched on a handfull of these suckers, or if you decided to turn your puffer fish into sushi, then I could understand people dying. So, let's agree not to eat our pets.

Sorry for being a skeptic, but this has all the signs of being urban legendish. Myself, I will continue to be more concerned about cleaning my hands BEFORE handling my zoos than AFTER handling them.

That being said, I will make sure not to have any zoo salad and if those little suckers do turn out to be that toxic, I sheepishly request that someone feed my fish while I'm gone.

Cheers,

LOS

[Aaron1100us]

I agree with you. I wash my hands before putting them in my tank and I've touched my zoos with cuts and nothing has ever happened. I think I read on an earlier post on here about how zoos that one of the most deadly or potent toxins there are ( think thats what I read). I highly dought that their toxins are more deadly than say a Black Mamba. There is enough toxins in a Black Mamba to kill 100 men. My zoos can't even kill me I've even saw my bicolor angel pick at one once and he is still kickin

[Los]

I agree. But, we still agree NOT TO EAT our ZOOS until further study. My wife isn't likely to volunteer for such an experiment. But, in the interest of science, the experiment would likely have to be "blind" anyway - so it's probably best that she's unaware of this whole nonsense .

To be fair, I'll serve as the beneficiary... er, I mean "control". I won't eat the zoos.

If one of us dies and the other doesn't, well then we'll have advanced science.

Although, what do we do if I get sick and she doesn't? That brings up an interesting point, my friends: cause and effect. I don't doubt that someone lost a dog (which all kidding aside, I know is one of the worst experiences on earth), but as far as some of the other stories... I mean we all have some sort of maladies that we could attribute to those damned zoos. In fact, everyone who is concerned should send a sample of them to me and I'll gladly "test" their suitability for aquarium use. I'll even give you regular "I am still alive" posts!

I'm betting I don't get many takers.

Come on guys. Don't eat your inverts (or other pets, for that matter); don't mainline aquarium water enriched with recently crushed organisms; and definitely don't feed them to your wife until we've proven efficacy. Within those guidelines, I'm pretty sure you'll be OK.

Cheers,

LOS

[musicsmaker]

I'll even give you regular "I am still alive" posts!

Don't bother. Instead, you could ask one of the experts that moderate forums here on RC. The coral forum or the reef chemistry forum would be a good start. If the toxin is make believe, then why was it such a great accomplishment to have synthetically reproduced it?

I read on an earlier post on here about how zoos that one of the most deadly or potent toxins there are ( think thats what I read). I highly dought that...

Have a look at one of the links at the top of this thread. It talks about all different sorts of toxins. Better yet, do a Google search on "palytoxin".

Perhaps most zoas don't contain high concentrations of the toxin, and yes it is likely that some don't have any at all. But they can, and some surely do. You can't tell by looking, so it is best to assume that all do.

[Los]

I'm not saying the toxin is make believe, its just that there are all sorts of things that we shouldn't be eating and drinking (pets definitely being high up on my list).

What I do question, however, is that handling these things and then eating a bite of sandwhich or getting our faces splashed with aquarium water or even having cuts on our hands is of any risk at all.

You know the greasy mechanic who eats a sandwhich while working on your car (at $60/hr)... he suffers no ill effects either. I am sure that should he start drinking gas martinis, getting his fix from transmission fluid IVs, engine oil and vinegar salads, or finishing off the hot day with coolant-cool-aid... well, he'd probably start having problems. All those things are toxic if consumed (at least I assume so - having not yet done the wife test with them), but are perfectly safe if used in a reasonable manner.

The thread is a good one and I'd welcome more evidence. I suspect it will turn out to be kind of like cyanide being in almonds. Sure, it's there, but in aweful low quantities.

I just wanted to have a quick sanity check before everyone starts flushing their zoos down the toilet.

I think the best post/idea was where someone mentioned doing a controled animal study with mice or rats (I happen to like both my wife and mother in law - so they are not really options).

For starters, however, they sure don't seem to do much damage to any animals in the tank.

Cheers,


LOS

[Shoestring Reefer]

The link below has this quote:

"Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin."

I don't know how reputable the site is, but here is the link:

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

[Shoestring Reefer]

Another link has this to say:

"At least some Palythoa are considered toxic. References normally cite that Palythoa toxica and Palythoa tuberculosa are the two most toxic species. I do not think that these two species are normally found in the hobby."

http://www.reefcorner.com/SpecimenSheets/sea_mats.htm

***************

But this link said the complete opposite:

"First, all members of Zoanthus and Palythoids contain the highly potent neurotoxin known as palytoxin. It is found in their mucus and in their mesenteries. This toxin does not seem to affect neighboring colonies in the same way as some of the other noxious chemical secretions of corals. Rather, it appears to serve as an anti-predation defense. Delbeek and Sprung note that several predators of zoanthids are not only unaffected by palytoxin, but actively store it in their bodies and shells."..."Irrespective of its use to the zoanthid, palytoxin is a very dangerous substance, and anyone handling zoanthids of any species should be very careful not to allow the polyps to contact any area of broken skin. Handwashing to remove mucus after handling zoanthids is absolutely required in the interest of safety. Palytoxin is also denatured by heat, and hot water hand washes will further act in loosening and solubilizing and mucosal remnants. " (third paragraph ftom the bottom)

http://www.aquarium.net/0198/0198_1.shtml

[Shoestring Reefer]

Do a search on this page for "Protopalythoa grandis", or scroll down to the "Zoanthids?" heading.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/zoanthid1.htm

"...We went and bought some polyps this weekend that look like giant button polyp zoanthids that are a brown and white marble sort of color. They are very large and we were told at the LFS that we bought them at that they are called cinnamon polyps.
< I know them very well. I poisoned myself three times in ten years as a coral farmer with them. They are potentially fatally toxic, but know that many corals are that you don't know about. Besides not eating your corals , you often hear that one should wear gloves in the aquarium to protect your corals from contamination on your hands and to protect your of course from these stinging animals. This is a good reason. Just do not handle them with cuts on your hands or propagate them without wearing gloves . The worst that you are likely to encounter is a metallic taste in the mouth if you work in the tank without gloves. The creature is also known as the Giant Sun Polyp, Protopalythoa grandis. A beautiful creature that also occurs marbled with pink and green! as well as with radiating red and white stripes>"

This site sells them:
http://www.thesea.org/captivesystems...?page=paly.asp

Numerous sites have said that people have gotten sick, some people numerous times, from some of these animals. I did not find any site that said someone died, but no one said they ate them, either.

So, based on who you believe:
A) ALL have this toxin to varying degrees
B) Some have the toxin, and are avalable in the aquarium trade
C) Some are toxic, but not sold in the aquarium trade
D) They are never toxic, it's a different species all together and we are paranoid for even reading this thread at all.

Personally, I plan to have them in my tank. They look great! I will regard all of them as potentially dangerous, and keep my kids out of the tank, and post a warning on the top of my hood to warn people.

[luvtolean]

Originally posted by Los
You know the greasy mechanic who eats a sandwhich while working on your car (at $60/hr)... he suffers no ill effects either. I am sure that should he start drinking gas martinis, getting his fix from transmission fluid IVs, engine oil and vinegar salads, or finishing off the hot day with coolant-cool-aid... well, he'd probably start having problems.

Err...try again. Mechanics have abnormally high levels of cancer in their trade. Most long term mechanics I know of, die of cancer. Even the ones that don't drink or smoke.


I had no idea these guys were toxic. I always wash my hands after working around the tank, but this is good info. Sure, reefers may not drop like flies, but it's not a bad idea to take preventitive measures.

The daddy long leg spider also has a very potent toxin, but it's not able to deliver it to humans, only its prey. I'm guessing however a Zoo is set up to utilize the toxin, means it normally can't hurt a human.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by Los

You know the greasy mechanic who eats a sandwhich while working on your car (at $60/hr)... he suffers no ill effects either. I am sure that should he start drinking gas martinis, getting his fix from transmission fluid IVs, engine oil and vinegar salads, or finishing off the hot day with coolant-cool-aid... well, he'd probably start having problems. All those things are toxic if consumed (at least I assume so - having not yet done the wife test with them), but are perfectly safe if used in a reasonable manner.
...
For starters, however, they sure don't seem to do much damage to any animals in the tank.

LOS

Good point about mechanics and cancer, luvtolean. In the oil shipping business, merchant marines are required to take benzine (sp?) tests to track the accumulation of cancer-causing benzine in their bodies. Their employer can then show by (hopefully) low levels in their body that it was not the cargo (ie, oil) that caused cancer, if anyone gets it.

I'm sure that wasn't Los's point, anyway. One of the sites listed above (at least, I THINK I listed it) states that the toxin in these little guys is NOT an offensive toxin; rather, it is a defensive toxin and that is why EATING the animals will be lethal. It also said that some preditors appear immune to the toxin.

I don't know why contact with the mucus, etc would cause non-lethal problems if the dose really is as small as is claimed. Maby MORE THAN ONE toxin is at work. Some types of venemous snakes have over 10 toxins and chemicals in their venom (anti-coagulants, parylizers, flesh digesters, etc) .

[Alice]

All of the above reasons aside (and my being alive is pretty compelling evidence, imho), the most compelling reason that these things don't kill people is that they are sold without warning and have been for years. If they were that dangerous, this would be litigious dinamite and fish stores would be out of business.

I see lion fish at SW stores everytime I make the rounds, and have yet to ever see a disclaimer on them. Granted, for most people the sting is no more life threatening than a bee sting, but for some people, they can be deadly. I know someone who wound up in a coma from lion fish venom. Heck, I've seen Stonefish for sale in stores and have heard no more disclaimer than "Nope, you don't want to pet those ones." So I doubt we'll be seeing disclaimers on zoos anytime soon.

Alice

[Scopaeniform]

I am going to have to side with the skeptics on this issue.

I first got into the reef keeping hobby a few years back when I was working at a LFS. Part of my responsibilities while working there was to take the live rock that had arrived in the morning (the 50lb. cardboard boxes of rock) and place it in our live rock holding tank to be sold. This would mean innumerable cuts on my hands from jagged edges and dead corals. Our corals would usually come in on the same day and I would put those away in our huge reef tank as well.

Now being that the Zoo's we had were imported they would most likely have built up a fairly high concentration of palytoxin in the bags where they had remained for several days. Because we didn't mix our water with that of incoming corals; I poured the water from the bag over my hands and then placed the coral (being held in my hand) in the aquarium. I didn't always get the chance to wash my hands after handling the zoo's before helping a customer that would walk through the door.

The palytoxin is suppose to cause constriction of the myocardia in a sudden and violent fashion (with constriction on the arteries as well I am sure) if a toxic dosage is achieved. With that said, my heart muscles should have clamped up tighter than Enron in a congressional hearing a long time ago.

The palytoxin may be there, but the consintration levels have to be EXTREMELY weak. I am talking a several ten-thousanths of what it takes to acheive toxicity in the human body. The toxin of the zoo's may be the most lethal known to man but it doesn't mean squat if the concentration is extremely low. Dogs use their mouths for everything and there are any number of toxins that he could have come into contact with (antifreeze, poop, insectacides, etc.).

P.S.- If you ever wonder what it feels like to have extreme myalgia from toxins in an aquatic friend, you should try a being stung by a Billroute (freshwater relative of the Stonefish, also from Australia). I was stung in the middle knuckle of my middle finger and within ten minutes I was in the worst pain of my life (and I have broken several bones). My left arm had swollen to twice the size of the right one and I seriously thought I was going to die. It made my sting from a pincushion urchin a few weeks earlier feel like a nice back rub. The Billroute that stung me was a baby half the size of my thumb nail.

[Los]

Scopaeniform-

Thanks for being our guinea pig!

LOS

[Runner]

Originally posted by Los
Hold on a second. I think we need a quick Salinity check... er, I mean sanity check.

If these things were anywhere NEARLY that toxic, don't you think a few of us would be dead?

Just a snide comment from the peanut gallery:

If one of us was killed by a zoathid, we wouldn't be posting about it, would we?

[Los]

OK, while I know it's not absolute evidence...

Yesterday, I was at an aquarium store nearby Sacramento. It's a great place, btw, called Aqualife Aquarium. Awesome animals, knowledgeable, good value, etc...

Anyway, the lady who was working there had a toddler splashing his hands in the tank containing various corals, including zoos. I inquired about this, pointing out that kids always stick their hands in their mouths and she laughed. If they were anywhere near that poisonous, that little kid wouldn't be here, since that wasn't the first time he's played in that tank.

Before people get up in arms about a kid sticking his hands in, the lady was right there next to him, watching him carefully, and I'm sure made him wash his hands BEFORE sticking them in the tank. He wasn't making a mess, disturbing the animals, or (on the subject of this post) killing himself.

I think as long as we don't make zoo salad, we're OK. And, when I get a dog, I'll be sure to keep the doors around my sump closed. That being said, I'm not overly worried about any of this. I remain more concerned about me hurting my animals than vice versa.

Cheers,

LOS

[tgreene]

Just to be on the safe side, everyone here should immediately bag up all of their Zoo's, and ship them to me for safe disposal...

[na1paj]

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
[B]Another link has this to say:

"At least some Palythoa are considered toxic. References normally cite that Palythoa toxica and Palythoa tuberculosa are the two most toxic species. I do not think that these two species are normally found in the hobby."

http://www.reefcorner.com/SpecimenSheets/sea_mats.htm

Hey thanks for the pics. but how can you tell if my zoos are palythoas? i mean what's the difference? as far as i know, one of my zoos is colored like the orange/green ones on that site
I've never had problems w/ swelling after handling the zoos w/ cuts on my hands. Could it be an allergy thing? i know my friend would itch and swell after touching a rose anomone but my fiance wouldn't (i never tried myself.. too scared) and my fiance would swell up very very badly after touching bristle worms (he said it's allergy... who knows)

[SLKs reef]

Well.. These have made me think over in getting frags of zoo's. I am going to a frag swap in Oct. and planned to get some zoo's but i dont think i will now.. Just seems to cautious to have colonies of zoos in your tank. esp cause i have a bunch of cuts and stuff on my hands. Then if I want to have zoos i would be parinoid about wearing gloves when i have my hands in the tank. I am always fraging my xenia. Does anyone know if that carrys any type of toxins that can be harmful. When I cut my xenia or pull a piece off a rock with my bare hands my fingers will tend to have a weird smell after from handling the xenia from its slime coat or tissue. I will always wash off my hands after I touch it. But sometimes I will throw a few pieces away and some might drop on the patio and I have a 10 month old yellow labrador that would probably lick/sniff the xenia.. and if he ate it im sure he would get sick? please correct me if I am wrong.

[kmk2307]

Hi SLKs reef,


To Reef Central

You might want to check out this link as far as xenia goes: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=140276. I wouldn't be that worried about the zooanthids. As long as you don't eat them and are moderately careful, I think you should be ok.

HTH,
Kevin

[SLKs reef]

Thanks for the welcome and if I did add some zoos to my reef should i always where are pair of gloves when working thw the corals esp the zoos? Would regular latex wrist hight gloves w/ maybe a rubberband around the top so no water gets inside the glove? Or would I want the full arm ones?

[musicsmaker]

If I were to get some gloves, then I would get the full arm ones. KMK gives good advice though. Just be careful and wash your hands. We should be doing this anyway whenever we are finished working in the tank.