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Unread 03/30/2014, 01:26 PM   #1
Balletomane
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Cuprisorb for dinoflagellets??

I've been battling dinos for about six months. We had a major ice storm back in early December. I had to evacuate all that wasn't glued down. The dinos were knocked down with five days w/o lights, but came back. I siphon weekly and try to do as little change of water as I can, having read that that water changes can add fuel to the fire

I spoke with one of the elder statesmen at the LFS yesterday and his recommendation was Cuprisorb. The store only had a mega container and I was not pressured to buy that quantity. My question is whether this product can be helpful for dinos. I've never dosed copper. I don't think heavy metals are an issue (never dosed, I buy my SW from the LFS).

Is this a valid recommendation? Any experiences would be appreciated. I'm awfully close to shutting down and bailing....Ugh!


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Unread 03/30/2014, 01:49 PM   #2
billsreef
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Sounds like an odd recommendation. As for water changes adding fuel to the fire, only if your replacement water is high in nutrients, which it shouldn't be if your using RO/DI for your fresh water source.


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Unread 03/30/2014, 03:22 PM   #3
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I'm not sure what CupriSorb would do, either. Did he explain what it was going to do?

CupriSorb wouldn't hurt, so the worse case is wasted money.


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Unread 03/30/2014, 03:32 PM   #4
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Salt mixes are high in heavy metals. High heavy metal levels from rain run off cause increased growth (blooms) of micro-organisms near land. The CurpriSorb removes heavy metals. That's the logic I see for using this product to try and control dinoflagellates. You want to decrease the dissolved and suspended organics in your water column to help make this work. Whether or not you can kill the dino's by limiting the heavy metals they need in a reef tank is debatable. Studies on heavy metal levels in reef tanks show quite a range in heavy metals, so it may help in your case, especially if your tank is high in them.


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Unread 03/30/2014, 03:56 PM   #5
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Interesting. I'll have to look at what metals encourage dinoflagellates.


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Unread 03/30/2014, 04:31 PM   #6
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Iron appears to be #1 and perhaps copper #2.

Research has shown that the dinos uptake heavy metals to produce their toxins, like other microbes.

HEAVY METALS CONTAMINATION IN TWO BIOLUMINESCENT BAYS
OF PUERTO RICO
Yadira Soto Viruet and Fernando Gilbes Santaella
Department of Geology, University of Puerto Rico, Mayagüez, PR

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...c26ml8QkZjDOPw

Dino's can tolerate higher levels of heavy metals than some other organisms, the blooms that appear in the oceans throughout the world do seem to correspond with higher levels of run-off contaminates from shore.


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Unread 03/30/2014, 05:23 PM   #7
Balletomane
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First, let me thank the most awesome folks for responding. I could only ask for Boomer and Randy to complete the chem orgasm. Maybe Disc1 as well. As is, I'm sure I won't sleep tonight.

I wish I could confidently scoop the garbage out w/o feeling that I've left all manner of dino young'uns behind. Truth be told, the stuff seems to be slowing down. But I thought the same after the days w/o power. I'll gladly put up any one who can rid me of the dinos. Bear in mind we wake up seriously early to feed cats and a Husky.


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Unread 03/30/2014, 06:18 PM   #8
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I didn't know that CupriSorb would remove iron, but that might in theory help with photosynthetic pests, although I'm not sure what the iron source would be.


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Unread 03/30/2014, 06:29 PM   #9
Balletomane
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If I were topping off with our well water I would say with total confidence that the sourece of any metals, heavy or otherwise, was our well. But I buy R/O water from commercial sources that are <0.10 TDS. Our R/O system is pretty good, but yields TDS values of 0.25 and above, so I don't use it in the tank..only dog/cat/human consumption.


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Unread 03/31/2014, 06:08 AM   #10
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You may want to try Fauna Marin Ultra Algea X. It seems it's working for quite a few hobbyists for dinos from what I've read in forums.


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Unread 03/31/2014, 08:44 AM   #11
Balletomane
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I didn't think to ask for it when I was at the LFS. I've seen a few references to it here. I don't think I can get back to the store until the weekend. They do have an email system. I'll put a message out to them to see if they carry it.


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Unread 03/31/2014, 11:51 AM   #12
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The biggest difference I saw in fighting Dinos was blowing off rocks with powerhead, and catch everything with a filter sock. I think alot of people skip this step.


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Unread 03/31/2014, 07:04 PM   #13
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I tried to find ultra algae x, but it looked online like it had been discontinued. Is it still available??


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Unread 04/01/2014, 07:44 AM   #14
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The only place i can find it is a fish store in washington state called barrier reef aquariums. I am not sure why but they are the only ones to have it HTH-Kieth


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Unread 04/01/2014, 07:54 AM   #15
HighlandReefer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crna View Post
I tried to find ultra algae x, but it looked online like it had been discontinued. Is it still available??
Apparently, They can't keep this stuff on the shelves, it sells as quick as they get it. BRS sells it, but are waiting for it to arrive back in stock.


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Unread 04/01/2014, 12:22 PM   #16
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Sorry, didn't mean to high jack the thread! Thanks guys! I've had a Dino battle going for a little over a month, and as expected, it's getting frustrating. I'll keep an eye out for it!


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Unread 04/06/2014, 05:14 AM   #17
Balletomane
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My LFS doesn't carry Ultra Algae X and they don't have experience with it. They have strongly latched onto Seachem and their products. One of the reps suggested Cuprisorb for dinos and tried it with success on at least four occasions in tanks they maintain in professional offices. No mechanism of action is known. They are relying solely on the results to date.

So yes, I'm taking the plunge. I hope it ain't snake oil. I also have a bag of Phosgard in the sump. The #1 guy says that there shouldn't be any interaction problems. He says I should start to see results in about a month. Fingers are crossed!


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Unread 04/06/2014, 07:06 AM   #18
tmz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rog2961 View Post
The biggest difference I saw in fighting Dinos was blowing off rocks with powerhead, and catch everything with a filter sock. I think alot of people skip this step.
I've had success eradicating them from my friends tank by carefully sucking them out with a turkey baster every few days for a week or two, a tedious but worthwhile step and raising pH.

This article by Randy H Farley is informative and may be of interest :

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php This is from it:

"...In one study that supports the general idea that some marine dinoflagellates may respond negatively to pH increases, Japanese scientists were investigating the effects of dumping steel-making slag into the ocean.1 The slag apparently contains substantial amounts of nutrients, and can drive the growth of organisms such as diatoms. In fact, in their studies the slag increased the growth of the diatom Skeletonema costatum considerably. The growth of the dinoflagellate Alexandrium tamarense, however, was reduced by the slag's addition and the researchers attributed this effect to the increased pH that came along with the slag. .."

Steel slag contains mostly CaO,caclium oxide and siilcate with some iron and other elements. It's ph increaes to 10 to 12 when it reacts with water. So, given the added iron, I'm not sure reducing iron has much to do with reducing dinoflagellates generally given the context of the noted study . Perhaps increased diatom growth offers competition for an unidentified limiting element or as the researchers suggested the elevated pH is the key variable with some types of dinos.

http://www.slg.jp/e/slag/character.html

FWIW,In my tank any dinos that sneak in with a coral or piece of rock disappear in a day or two ;incidentally, iron is chronically low;NO3 and Phosphate are also low and pH runs 8.15 to 8.35.


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Unread 04/06/2014, 07:49 AM   #19
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One thing you mentioned was purchasing RO from commercial sources. Whether or not this is suitable for your tank isn't a given - lots of commercial water purification outfits don't necessarily produce water that's highly pure, just pure enough for domestic/industrial uses.

But you noted that you have an RO system fed from a well (presumably whole-house). If that's the case, all you need is a DI unit to hook to the faucet, and you'll get water that you can have confidence in.

API, for example, makes a convenient standalone DI resin unit that comes with a faucet adapter and is only $40. If you wanted to assemble it yourself, you could probably buy the housing, plumbing parts and resin from BRS for about the same money, but be able to refill the cartridge yourself when exhausted.


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Unread 04/06/2014, 09:26 AM   #20
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I had a killer case of dines on the rocks, glass and when I turn off the power heads it would start to form in the water column. Along with that I had cyano on my sand bed in thick mats.

I was running Bio pellets for a year before hand an I took it off line for a month before I used the my method in the following.

Again, I did all the research and have the same understanding with dines as you appear to have. This is what I did since I was going to do a system restart anyways.

I used all of the methods to reduce dino all at once and was very aggressive since I didn't give a f&% anymore lol.

Started with dosing redslime remover for the cyano. Removed all of my sand bed(sugar grain) blower off rocks.
Lights off.
Shut off skimmer.
24 hours later, performed 80g worth of water changes within 2 days (200g system)
Dosed peroixde
A week later, bingo! dinos and cyano beat. No lose of sps, loss of colour though. Which bounced back a few weeks later.

This method worked for me, but I didn't care if i nuked the tank anyways as it was a disaster anyways. I backed up all my Sps before I did it though.

Good luck as this was the nasties pest I've ever dealt with in 9 years of the hobby.

HTH

-dan


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Unread 05/03/2014, 05:42 PM   #21
Balletomane
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Ok, it's been a month or so with the Cuprisorb....

I do believe that there is recession of the plague. Far from eradicated but it seems to be slower to recover after siphoning. Fingers are crossed...

I just don't dare introduce anything new until this stuff is gone.


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Unread 05/03/2014, 10:20 PM   #22
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Balletomane

I too seem to be getting positive results using cuprisorb to kill my dino. I have been fighting mine since Jan. I put cuprisorb in a few weeks ago when I discovered a rusting pump. I found a few older threads about iron and dino which lead me to cuprisorb. So far it seems to be working better than all the other treatments for Dino I have tried.

I wonder if you have excess iron in your tank from rust or maybe it's the type of salt you use. What brand do you use?


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Unread 05/03/2014, 10:54 PM   #23
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Hmm interesting I had got a pm about me recommending cupisorb along time ago because I thought iron might help fuel dino's.. People in the area where there was large amounts of iron in their water had suffered with dino's.. Lowering nutrients never seemed to to get rid of dino's just made them worse.. Dinos seem to be able to survive in very low nutrient water where other algae seem to die off.. Growing algae that out competes dino's for what ever it needs seems to work really well for them... That could be iron..

Julian (two little fishies) has a new product out called...MetaSorb... Wonder how that stacks up!


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Unread 05/04/2014, 07:28 AM   #24
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Do either of you grow macroalgae? That may be a good way to strip out iron, if iron is actually an issue.


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Unread 05/04/2014, 09:15 AM   #25
shred5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley View Post
Do either of you grow macroalgae? That may be a good way to strip out iron, if iron is actually an issue.
That is the only way I and others were able to deal with them.. We started to raise nutrients enough for green algae to grow and started refugiums with macros and they went away...

I have not had to suffer with them for probably 15 to 20 years or so though but I have not had a fuge in a long time either.....

I figured it out because in the early days of reef keeping I never had them and we used to grow macros in our tanks.. Yea I have been in this hobby a long time.. It wasn't till skimmers started getting more efficient and we removed the macros from the tanks that dinos reared its ugly head.. As skimmers and more nutrient export stuff became available they got worse..

So what ever it is that they need green algae can out compete them for it...


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