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Unread 12/03/2017, 04:26 PM   #9551
stage3-s4
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For some reason on my setup I cant seem to get the thing to run quiet. It seems that the open channel is very noisy. Lots of air and water mixed in the line (I can hear the water flowing through the Pipes). Also I have to keep the pump output down because as soon as I turn it up the emergency drain starts draining water and never stops. Turning the ball valve on the siphon line does nothing as well. I checked for to make sure there were no air leaks in the siphon line just be to be sure (none found).

Any advice on whats going on? I have attached a picture of my setup for reference. Its all 1" piping and I have a DCS-7000 Return pump.


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Unread 12/03/2017, 09:29 PM   #9552
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I figured it out. I guess after I turned my pump off a few times a giant air pocket formed in the standpipe. I had to remove it from the bulkhead to purge the air. Now it works perfectly.


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Unread 12/03/2017, 10:29 PM   #9553
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Originally Posted by John McGahern View Post
Thanks again. I should have mentioned that my new tank was drilled for a Beananimal set up but through the bottom, so my overflow AND plumbing will both be internal. With this in mind wouldn't I be able to just drill into the top of the 90 of the open line without the use of the airline and fitting? Would this not work the same way with the hole serving the same purpose as the open end of the tube. If a blockage occurs in the first Siphon line then wouldn't the water rise, cover the hole and then turn the open line into a full siphon much the same way? I would assume the only reason a tube line is used is because of the plumbing being external.
The open channel (the one with the airline) isn’t supposed to syphon unless both the syphon & emergency get clogged. So it is basically the last line of defense on a flood. So the end of the airline is supposed to be above the emergency drain. Without the airline the hole would be below the emergency drain so it wouldn’t work like it is intended to.

U can try & run it without the airline first & see if u have any issues. One issue that can happen is on startup the open channel may syphon because the hole gets covered before the actual syphon line can purge the air for the syphon to kick in. If it does this then the open channel would kick in & out of syphon as the water rises & falls in the overflow & cause the syphon line not to get going.

One way I suppose U could get around using the airline is by using a tee for the standpipe & extend from the top of the tee to where the cap is close to the top of the overflow box & above the emergency. That way the hole would be above the emergency, but it would need to be close to the top of the overflow box


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Unread 12/03/2017, 10:47 PM   #9554
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Originally Posted by stage3-s4 View Post
For some reason on my setup I cant seem to get the thing to run quiet. It seems that the open channel is very noisy. Lots of air and water mixed in the line (I can hear the water flowing through the Pipes). Also I have to keep the pump output down because as soon as I turn it up the emergency drain starts draining water and never stops. Turning the ball valve on the siphon line does nothing as well. I checked for to make sure there were no air leaks in the siphon line just be to be sure (none found).

Any advice on whats going on? I have attached a picture of my setup for reference. Its all 1" piping and I have a DCS-7000 Return pump.


In your picture the open channel is taking to much water. Eighther the water level inside the overflow needs to be lowered or the open channel raised. The open channel is supposed to only take a trickle of water. The larger the pipe the more it can handle but with 1” pipe it can’t take much more then a trickle & be silent. U want the water level to be right at a 1/4” or so above the bottom of the inlet on the tee. The inlet where the 90 attaches to the tee, about 1/8” to 1/4” above the bottom of the inlet.

Btw, a 1” syphon can handle between 1,500 to 2,000 gph. So u should be able to run that pump full blast after head loss on the pump & the syphon should be able to handle it. If u have to keep the pump turned way down then something isn’t right. I don’t know the size of your system or the head loss on the pump, but u more then likely don’t need to have the pump wide open, but it should be able to handle it if everything is working correctly


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Unread 12/04/2017, 07:30 AM   #9555
stage3-s4
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Originally Posted by Lsufan View Post
In your picture the open channel is taking to much water. Eighther the water level inside the overflow needs to be lowered or the open channel raised. The open channel is supposed to only take a trickle of water. The larger the pipe the more it can handle but with 1” pipe it can’t take much more then a trickle & be silent. U want the water level to be right at a 1/4” or so above the bottom of the inlet on the tee. The inlet where the 90 attaches to the tee, about 1/8” to 1/4” above the bottom of the inlet.

Btw, a 1” syphon can handle between 1,500 to 2,000 gph. So u should be able to run that pump full blast after head loss on the pump & the syphon should be able to handle it. If u have to keep the pump turned way down then something isn’t right. I don’t know the size of your system or the head loss on the pump, but u more then likely don’t need to have the pump wide open, but it should be able to handle it if everything is working correctly
yea that is exactly what was happening. The problem was I couldn't adjust the water level inside the overflow box due to the full siphon not working properly. I had to purge out some air stuck in the siphon standpipe by disconnecting it from the bulkhead and letting all the water drain out of the over flow box. Once I replaced it back in, it worked fine. Hopefully this doesn't happen every time I turn off my pump. would I be better off just using 2 90s for the siphon instead of a 90 and a T fitting?


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Unread 12/04/2017, 08:17 AM   #9556
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your full siphon outlet pipe is probably too deep underwater - preventing it from operating correctly. It cannot purge the air pocket if it's more than an inch underwater at normal operating levels.

This can be caused by the actual length of the pipe. it can also be caused by other variables like running the outlet into a filter sock and the filter sock is running higher than normal because it's clogged.


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Unread 12/04/2017, 09:07 AM   #9557
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your full siphon outlet pipe is probably too deep underwater - preventing it from operating correctly. It cannot purge the air pocket if it's more than an inch underwater at normal operating levels.

This can be caused by the actual length of the pipe. it can also be caused by other variables like running the outlet into a filter sock and the filter sock is running higher than normal because it's clogged.
Thats interesting.I thought the whole Idea of the valve was to control the water level in your overflow box. If I can not control the level how can I control how deep the siphon intake is? I guess I can raise the height of the siphon intake to be closer to the height of the bulkhead in the side of the tank. I don't run filter socks at all so that is deff not the problem.


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Unread 12/04/2017, 09:15 AM   #9558
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He's referring to the drain end of your siphon line. This needs to be no more than 1" underwater


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Unread 12/04/2017, 10:04 AM   #9559
stage3-s4
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He's referring to the drain end of your siphon line. This needs to be no more than 1" underwater
That makes sense. Yes I did adjust the length of that pipe because it was well below the 1 inch mark. Now it is 1-2 inches below the water line.


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Unread 12/04/2017, 10:30 AM   #9560
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still might be too far. 0.5" to 1" below is all you really need/want


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Unread 12/04/2017, 12:42 PM   #9561
stage3-s4
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still might be too far. 0.5" to 1" below is all you really need/want
Ill have to find the sweet spot for sure. This is a trition setup so it drains directly into the fuge. Now that I know what the issue was its easier to dial it in. So far seems to be working fine.


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Unread 12/04/2017, 03:50 PM   #9562
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Okay, the more I talk with you the more I'm getting my head around it. Tell me if I'm getting this right here...The full siphon obviously is the first in line. The emergency upturned 90 is second and the water if it rose due to the full siphon being blocked would hit that opening first. Then lastly the open line, although the down turned 90 would be at the same depth as the full siphon line, the end of the air line is placed slightly higher than the emergency opening and should only turn into a full siphon if both of the others are blocked?


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Unread 12/04/2017, 04:09 PM   #9563
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Originally Posted by stage3-s4 View Post
Ill have to find the sweet spot for sure. This is a trition setup so it drains directly into the fuge. Now that I know what the issue was its easier to dial it in. So far seems to be working fine.
I wouldn’t submerge the pipes any more then 1” into the sump. If u have 90’s or something else in the lines that makes it harder to purge the air out of the lines then u may be only able to submerge it 1/2” into the sump. Like they mentioned above, if it submerged to far into the sump it won’t purge the air for the syphon to kick in.

If I had to guess your syphon wasn’t actually syphoning because it had air & that is why the adjusting the valve wasn’t doing anything. That is why I brought it up in the last post. It sounded like the syphon wasn’t working correctly.


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Unread 12/04/2017, 04:13 PM   #9564
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Okay, the more I talk with you the more I'm getting my head around it. Tell me if I'm getting this right here...The full siphon obviously is the first in line. The emergency upturned 90 is second and the water if it rose due to the full siphon being blocked would hit that opening first. Then lastly the open line, although the down turned 90 would be at the same depth as the full siphon line, the end of the air line is placed slightly higher than the emergency opening and should only turn into a full siphon if both of the others are blocked?
That sounds about right. The open channel will always have a trickle of water going through it but u don’t want it to syphon unless both other drains get clogged.

I don’t know if u saw it in my last post but one way u may be able to get away with using the airline is by extending the top of the open channel standpipe up to where it is close to the top of the overflow box & above the emergency.


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Unread 12/04/2017, 05:24 PM   #9565
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That sounds about right. The open channel will always have a trickle of water going through it but u don’t want it to syphon unless both other drains get clogged.

I don’t know if u saw it in my last post but one way u may be able to get away with using the airline is by extending the top of the open channel standpipe up to where it is close to the top of the overflow box & above the emergency.
Yes I saw that and may consider doing that, thank you. One other thing I wondering is how do I know I'm getting the perfect amount of trickle in the open line. Bean mentions in his post that anything more than a 1/4" of the cross section of the pipe and you'll start to get gurgling as it starts to "pull" down air. If the 90 is turned down in the overflow box and the exit point is below the water line in the sump, how can one tell if you've got it set right. Is it done by adjusting the valve on the full siphon line until I here minimal noise and that's it?


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Unread 12/04/2017, 09:09 PM   #9566
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Yes I saw that and may consider doing that, thank you. One other thing I wondering is how do I know I'm getting the perfect amount of trickle in the open line. Bean mentions in his post that anything more than a 1/4" of the cross section of the pipe and you'll start to get gurgling as it starts to "pull" down air. If the 90 is turned down in the overflow box and the exit point is below the water line in the sump, how can one tell if you've got it set right. Is it done by adjusting the valve on the full siphon line until I here minimal noise and that's it?
Basically what he meant was if u connect two 90’s together to make a upside U. Where the two 90’s attach to each other is what he is referring to as the cross section. If u have a tee with a 90 attached then it would be about 1/8” to 1/4” above the bottom of the inlet on the tee where the 90 attaches to it. To tune it in perfect then yes, u will judge it by the noise & the bubbles exiting the pipe into the sump. I find u start to hear it when it gets more then about 1/8 of the cross section & really loud once it gets above 1/4

The valve on the syphon will actually adjust the water level inside the overflow box, but the hieght of the open channel standpipe will actually determine where u want the water level to be. U don’t want the water level inside the overflow to be way lower then the tank & have the water falling to far over the wier on the overflow box because that would get loud. Usually u want the water level inside the overflow to be less then 2” below the tank waterline so the waterfall going into the box is less then 2”. That is one reason not to glue anything inside of the overflow box, sump u can adjust the heights of the standpipes if u see that u need to once u get everything going.

Byw, if u google - Beananimal Bar & Grill - that is beans website. If u look at his silent & failsafe overflow he gives a good rundown of the system. It may be helpful & give u a better understanding so when u do ask a question u may understand the answer better. I don’t mind at all helping but I know I’m not great at explaining things in text sometimes & bean explains things better then me. Sometimes I read what I type & it doesn’t come out how I mean it to, I’m better with words then typing.


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Unread 12/05/2017, 08:07 AM   #9567
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I wouldn’t submerge the pipes any more then 1” into the sump. If u have 90’s or something else in the lines that makes it harder to purge the air out of the lines then u may be only able to submerge it 1/2” into the sump. Like they mentioned above, if it submerged to far into the sump it won’t purge the air for the syphon to kick in.

If I had to guess your syphon wasn’t actually syphoning because it had air & that is why the adjusting the valve wasn’t doing anything. That is why I brought it up in the last post. It sounded like the syphon wasn’t working correctly.
Yes the siphon was not working properly. It had a giant air pocket in the line that i had to purged out. There are 3 90s in the line between the overflow box and sump. The water level in my sump is currently in flux is what I meant for figuring out the actual length of the pipe that will be below the water line. Thanks for the help though.


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Unread 12/05/2017, 04:21 PM   #9568
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On the contrary! I have read the article several times and although I had a basic understanding of what was going, speaking to someone like yourself is INVALUABLE as you're able to answer questions that can't be found just by reading the article. Thanks again!


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Unread 12/05/2017, 05:47 PM   #9569
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What do you think of this set up. This is sort of what I was talking about without the use of an air line on the open channel, but just by making sure it's set higher than the emergency..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oya6X3aLUOo


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Unread 12/05/2017, 05:55 PM   #9570
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That will be fine. With your type of overflow the water level inside the overflow box will just be higher so the standpipes will be higher in the overflow box. If u can get the hole in the top above the emergency it should work fine.

In the video that is actually a 1.5” ptrap. The hole they are using is a cleanout. It has female threads so if u use something like that then u can always add a airline to it if u find u need it. With the female threads u can get the right size John Guest fitting & it would screw straight into the p-trap



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Unread 12/10/2017, 03:17 PM   #9571
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Just checking to see if my posting is working


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Unread 12/21/2017, 09:34 AM   #9572
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Question on doing a herbie with one 3/4" bulkhead (1 1/2" hole) and one 1" bulkhead (1 3/4" hole). I have a pre-drilled tank (All Glass), so those are the bulkhead options available to me. I'm planning on running 1" pipe to both. For the 3/4" bulkhead, I'll just use 3/4" to 1" adapters above and below the bulkhead. It's my understanding that this will still function as a 1" drain, with the difference being the water velocity and pressure will be a little higher through the 3/4" section. If my assumptions are valid, I'm wondering which one I should use as my emergency drain? Any thoughts? I apologize if this had already been answered. I started to go through this thread, but there are too many posts to scan.


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Unread 12/21/2017, 11:10 PM   #9573
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The bulkhead itself is the limiting factor, but upsizing the pipe does help to a extent. It still won’t be able to handle the same amount of flow as the 1” bulkhead. I would use the 1” bulkhead as the emergency. Using the 3/4” as the emergency is taking a risk because it can’t handle as much flow as the 1”. So if the 1” syphon gets clogged the emergency may not be able to handle the flow. Always use the larger bulkhead as the emergency that way there is no question that it can handle all of the flow.


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Unread 12/22/2017, 06:53 PM   #9574
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Clowning around, I have a setup very similar to yours. I find that the pass through holes need to be about half way submerged to be silent. The amount of flow will somewhat dictate this & I do have close to 1000 gph going through my pass through holes. I have all my holes drilled in the bottom of the box , so my open channel has a sanitary tee with a street 90 installed into the tee. The bottom of the inlet on the tee where the 90 slips into the tee is set just below halfway on the pass through bulkheads. That way only a small amount of water drains through the open channel & the water level in the box is halfway up on the pass through holes.

How bean said to have your drains setup with the open channel in the middle hole really does make the most sense. By doing it that way the holes in the side of the box only need to have a 90. The syphon would have a 90 facing down & the emergency facing up with a short piece of pvc in the 90 to set the height. So the open channel would be the only drain that would need to have a u tube.
Sorry for bring back up an old section of the thread but my issues where previously discussed in threads #9481-9496 (not sure how to hyperlink that section). Basically, I was not able to return right away to he hobby due to a surgery and recovery, hence my delayed post. At any rate as of recent I'm back at it and have one more question now that things are in the works. The above is post #9495 and references Bean's reply in #9486.

Here's my current situation. Most of my assembly was difficult to contend with/access and all permanently affixed. I ended up keeping the siphon where it was given there was no issue with it. The emergency also was basically fine, except I did raise it some for extra height before emergency kicks in. Lastly, I have changed the Open to have an upturned elbow followed by 2 more forming an inverted "U". I then also placed a vertical section on the inlet of that U extending down in the box, close to the glass to limit livestock access. (I'm thinking I should have omitted that piece now). So now, noise is no longer an issue its dialing in the system. I had previously thought having the airline on the open channel would break siphon/vacuum and be ok with the vertical but that doesn't appear to be whats occurring. Here's an example, I have to fully close my siphon line before the water level rises to the horizontal part of that U before it stops rising. If I have my siphon open as it should be even if only slightly the water level never raises in the overflow box up to the U making it silent, like it is when closed instead it surges up and down. I'm assuming I should just cut off that leg on the open channel and be golden but wanted to check before I go hacking away at it given its easier to remove then to add. I've spent a lot of time and continue to make mistakes, so I'm asking for feedback first this time. Because at this point I would really like to have my system up and running properly to enjoy it rather than getting discouraged by it. Thanks in advance for your help. Let me know if any of the above is unclear or if you have some other question about my specifics I need to outline.

Here's a quick crude diagram of what I have now:


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Unread 12/22/2017, 11:33 PM   #9575
Lsufan
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The extension on the open channel really isn’t doing anything to affect the drain that I can think of. Basically on the open channel the water has to get to the point where the two 90’s join together to make the U for it to drain any water. Basically where u have the dotted line drawn. The water would have to get over that point before the open channel takes any water being it isn’t a syphon.

Is the open channel taking any water when the water level is flunctuation in the overflow box or is it never getting to that point?

If the water in the overflow keeps fluncuating to where it raises & then all of a sudden completely drains the overflow box, then eighther the syphon is kicking in & out of syphon or the open channel syphons & empties the overflow before the syphon kicks in on the syphon drain. That is one of the reasons the output of the airline is supposed to be above the emergency drain.

It sounds like u are just having trouble getting the syphon tuned in, so when the syphon kicks in it just empties the overflow box until the syphon sucks air. When the syphon sucks air the water will build up again until the syphon purges the air again & when it does it just empties the overflow again.

When u get the system going the first thing u want to try & achieve is to get the water in the overflow box stable to where it doesn’t flunctuate. Once u get to that point is when u can fine tune it to get the water level to where u want it. In your case u are going to want the water level right where u have the dotted line drawn on the open channel.

I would start with the valve fully open. Let the system get going & close the valve half way & see what happens. If the water level still doesn’t rise & isn’t steady then u will need to close the valve even more. Depending on flow & size of the plumbing u may end up having to run it with the valve halfway to 3/4’s of the way closed.


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