Refugiums and Macroalgae-the Good, the Bad, the Ugly

[Tswifty]

Also I have a 3-4" sand bed, LR rubble, and Cheato in my fuge.

[Aquarist007]

Jefe and tswifty thats for the pictures of your designs--this is exactly what I hoped would happen--your inputs are going to make this thread a great reference point

Paul--I am honoured that one of my original mentors on this site who I hold in high esteeem, would give their input--thanks so much

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by jnewman
great thread started I hope to see how people set up there sump/fuge. I have been playing at a sump/fuge as i am limited on funds. Will post pics as well.
Once i Figure out how.

glad you asked jnewman--would love to see more pics

to post pictures
go to www.photobucket.com and take out an album account--its free
you will be able to upload your pictures from your computer there

once you upload a picture you will see four codes under it

pic the fourth code the "img' as you click on it with your mouse it will flash copied

when you need the pic in your post use the paste feature of your brower or computer and the code will be pasted in to your message

once you submit your post the code will change to the picture--

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

Paul Whitby's Spraybar
OH... when I first saw that I thought he was talking about tumbling the sandbed for pods or something. Only thing is.. in his pic I don't see much macroalgae at all. So basically you just used another pump in your water... something light like 10-20 gph... and drilled holes in pvc to create a sprabar?

What are some other good things to add to a FUGE? I read that someone was using... brittle stars in there (probably for detrius), camel shrimp?, etc. I would like to have a seahorse, pipefish. Stuff I can't have anywhere else. But I'm afraid they'll eat all the pods. And how can I culture pods in an environment like that. How do you feed them?... once a week Phytoplankton?... couple times week?

Originally posted by Jefe12234
I recently set up a tank with Chaeto, Ulva, Gracilaria, and Caulerpa growing in the sump/refugium. I came up with a spraybar to keep the macroalgae tumbling so that it doesn't have the problems some people have already mentioned. Here's some pics and a link to the thread where I first posted it.

It works very well, the algae just rotates end over end all day long. I keep my rock in the next compartment so that it doesn't stop the algae from rotating. My Chaeto has yet to take off, but it's still pretty early. The Ulva has been growing the best (going to have to remove some soon) and the Gracilaria just recently took off.

[mash2k]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
Thanks for your prompt and detailed repy Mash
I'll present the other side of the coin er algae

first of all caulerpa can go sexual unlike chaeto algae--given that possibility it rules it out for me
This article might sway you a bit--I was
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...nftt/index.php


Contradictory to Mash--chaeto does grow well with the lights on 24/7--if you fully rotate the ball once a week.

Also quoted from Mr Wilson:

Originally posted by mr.wilson
Plants react to darkness. They can switch off with a nanosecond of darkness.

Algae and terrestrial plants both require a respiratory period of darkness. The photoperiod also dictates the plants reproductive cycle, signaling seasonal changes.

Macro algae will cease to grow in a 24 hour photoperiod. It will also cease to reproduce.

This is basic biology. When I lived in Alaska (Fairbanks), we got nearly 2 hours of dusk in the summer. I was cutting my grass 3 times a week.

[mash2k]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
nalbar--thanks for the good read--it actually helps make my point above with using caulerpa algae:
quoted from Eric Borneman
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/eb/index.php

"I am not in any way condemning the use of macroalgae in refugia. I am very fond of many of them, although many have quite numerous and toxic secondary metabolites, like soft corals and sponges. In particular, I am very unfond of Caulerpa (Figure 5). It is invasive and very difficult to eradicate. It is toxic to fish and has many metabolites - and releases them when the organism degenerates during spawning. Acidic rhizomes etch carbonate (Figure 6) and these algae can kill other more desirable species by overgrowth. I have had it grow right through the stalks of soft corals. Many aquarists say that it has not been a problem for them. My response? Just wait. It will. I guess my big question regarding Caulerpa is why use it at all when so many more desirable species of macroalgae exist, like Chaetomorpha species, or others (Figures 7 & 8)."

I haven't had it happen to me yet, but it it does, I am going to eat a huge piece of humble pie...)

[Jefe12234]

Originally posted by SCIFI_3D_zoo
Paul Whitby's Spraybar
OH... when I first saw that I thought he was talking about tumbling the sandbed for pods or something. Only thing is.. in his pic I don't see much macroalgae at all. So basically you just used another pump in your water... something light like 10-20 gph... and drilled holes in pvc to create a sprabar?

There isn't much algae in those pics because they were taken when I first set it up. It's starting to fill in now. The spraybar is powered by a MJ 1200 (290gph I think), and it pushes water against the flow of the sump to achieve circular flow. There's a longer description in the link I posted with the pics.

[mash2k]

Originally posted by nalbar
I have never been sold on the concept.


scroll down to #13 here;

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/eb/index.php




I have always been nagged by the feeling that a properly set up (and 'aged') main tank should not need the extra export, particularly if it has a skimmer, and if more export is needed a simple water change schedule could do the same thing.


nalbar

This is probably true. Maybe we reef enthusiasts could use a little more simple is better in our techniques.

I have never had a reef tank that didn't really start to get right until at least a year.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by mash2k
I haven't had it happen to me yet, but it it does, I am going to eat a huge piece of humble pie...)

or boiled seaweed LOL

[Aaroneous]

Thanks for the welcome Capn. This site has been a great asset to me starting my first saltwater tank!

This decision of which or what algaes to place in my sump has been on my mind lately and now this thread has really kick started it. The more I research, the more attractive Ulva looks. From a physical stand point I have found the blade is actually only two cells thick. This allows sea lettuce to grow rapidly in nutrient-rich water as it has a high surface to volume ratio. Ulva reticulata is effective in removing copper from water. There were other reports I came across showing Ulva as effectively removing other metals also. Some species of sea lettuce (Ulva spp.), have been shown to remove up to 90% of dissolved nitrogen from aquaculture effluent. Its been shown to have positive effects on growth rate of snails, abalone, and other inverts. Pretty cool stuff. Ultimately I feel a variety will be best; each have their benefits.

Nice setup Jefe!

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by mash2k
Also quoted from Mr Wilson:



This is basic biology. When I lived in Alaska (Fairbanks), we got nearly 2 hours of dusk in the summer. I was cutting my grass 3 times a week.

yes, but the summer was only for three days

where is Mr. Wilson--it would be nice to have a discussion with him.

plants breathe 24 hours a day but perform photosynthesis only in the light

[84chris]

Ok, so chaeto is the way to go, With or without the Dsb?

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by 84chris
Ok, so chaeto is the way to go, With or without the Dsb?

depends on what you want out of your fuge--if you want a greater variety of inverts and useful bacteria --good for the deep sand bed

if you want filtration --chaeto alone will do the job and the fuge is alot easier to clean

[tmz]

I run a 500g system with 7 integrated tanks and 2 44g bins.One of the bins is a sump and the other is a refugium.
The display tanks are a120g(sps .lps and nepthea leathers) ,a 90g with dsb (lps zoonthus.paythoa and two soft corals and several rbtas),a 90g sps dominant with lps and a nepthea.
The rest of the system consists of a 20g bare bottom with chaetomorpha and red kelp,a 44 gal unlit bin with live rock and rubble,a 30g breeder with dsb for lps and zoanthus frags, a 40g bare bottom with egg crate racks for sps frags and a 29 g with leathers(sinularia and capnella) and chaetomorpha.
Since the 44g unlit rubble bin, the 20g chaeto tank and the 29 g are without predators,they are all refugia.All receive some nutrient via the networking of drains. I am planning to add another 44g for additional chaetomorpha.
Sorry for the length of this but spelling out what the system consist of is necessary in order to describe the relationships and roles of the various refugia.
I run activated carbon and polypad contiuously to reduce dom and alleopathic metabolites. I think it is necessary since my system is mixed.
I use an asm g 4x system which may be a tad undersized for the system.
The 20g macro tank and the 29g leather tank are on opposite photo period.
I have used caulerpa in the past and have had probems with the milky mess sporulation caused. I do not wan't to run the macro refugium 24/7 because I beleive the opposite photo period is helpful to the entire system and I also think a period of darkness as in nature is necessary for photosynthetic organisms to complete their life processes. While chaeto may release back some nutrients it is easier to maintain by picking out small pieces that break off and pruning. Chaetomoprpha is a multicelled organism so if some dies in your tank or releases it's spores it will do it in small amounts. A mass of caulerpa is a singel cell and when it goes it all goes dumping back all that it has gathered.
Flow through the 20g macro tank is about 450 gph and about the same for the 29 g leather/chaeto tank. Incidentaly the leathers also filter out significant nutrient.
Lighting for the macro tank consist of two 65w equivalent energy saver 65k bulbs(acuall wattage is 18w ea). Lighting for the 29g leather and chaeto tank is a 150 10k hqi mh lamp. Both the leather and macro tanks contain small amounts of live rock and both support pod an mysis posulations. The chaetomorpha seems to provide comfortable habitat for this micrfuana even without a sand bed.
I have used sand beds and rubble and even crushed coral under the macroalgae in the past on the notion that it would support more pods. Well I think it did but it also gathered lots of crud and nutrient matter and was nearly impossible to clean and prone to cyanobacteria which would spread out of it to other tanks.. In my opinion keeping a sandbed under macroalgae and not cleaning it is not unlike leaving a dirty filter pad or bioballs in the water.Pods grow on them to . Whatever is trapped in the sand or the chaetomorpha may feed lots of pods but it is still in the water breaking down into dom and eventually nutrient to feed nuisance algae etc.
Yes, I clean my refugia regualry by shalking off the chaeto and letting the detrius as well as some of the pods flow into the water column. This feeds the tank and gets some of the the gunk to the skimmer and provides some food for the critters in the display.
Microfuana from the refugia does pass through my sump but when I view my display tanks at night there are live zoozplankton in the water so I don't think passing through the pump kills them. I've seen live atremia naupaulli in good numbers in the dispalys after dosing them into other tanks.
The unlit bin with rubble and live rock also supports some pods but petrhaps more importantly lots of sponge and other crytic fuana which may or may not contriute beneficial substance to the sytem and do some filter feeding.
My nitrates and phospate levels are consisitently undetectable. ido get a patch of algae here and ther from time to time but it is easily managed so far.
I do not feed the microfuana in my refugia. Ido have about 40 fish in other tanks throughout the system and feed them well so I'm preety confident that there is plenty left over.

[Aquarist007]

wow--thanks tom for such a detailed post--and late at night too

Can you post any pictures of your filtration system?

thanks
Scott

[Aquarist007]

one question Tmz--if you get some cyano on the chaeto like I do from time to time , do you shake that off also and let it go through the filtration system(assuming you have scraped off as much as possible?

[tmz]

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
wow--thanks tom for such a detailed post--and late at night too

Can you post any pictures of your filtration system?

thanks
Scott

I really do have to take the time to become more comfortable in digital photography and moving pictures around on the internet. Untill then ,I'm sorry no pictures.

[tmz]

Yes,as little as possible.

[tmz]

Follow up, if there was a sustatial quantity of cyano,I would probably lift out the chaeto and rinse it thoroughly in a buckett of tank water.

[mrkalel]

I started a show fuge a few months after my main display was running, and I can say it is had been really interesting and cool...

I have a mix of about 7 different macro's, but I started with caulerpa, and that of course grows the best...
(I have looked around for the last few months for a good culture of chaeto but cant find anything...)

I am using a 72 Gal AGA Bow-Front Reef-Ready tank. 6" of Sand, about 50 LBS of rock (Main has about 275 lbs)...
Turnover rate of about 250-300 GPH, with a 650 GPH inside the fuge...

I also have a few things in there that you might not think about
in a fuge...
Multiple anenomes, a snowflake eel, couple of urchins...

But it def cool to see the amount of bristles, brittle stars, amphipods and copepods that run all over...

It is plumbed just like a regular tank, and overflows into the community sump

[mrkalel]

[CaptainCoral]

Ok, I've seen yours, I'll show you mine.



I have a maxi-jet 1200 inside one of the overflows on my 180 gallon tank. It feeds the aga 40 gallon breeder tank refugium and drains back into the display. I put cheato in there, but the calupera took it over of which there are three kinds. It is lit 24 hours for about 5 days a week. If I see it struggling, I turn off the lights for 24 hours. It usually looks somewhat faded afterwards, but within a few hours it's nice and green again. I pull out a heaping plate full the size of a nice plate of spaghetti about once a week. I havn't looked into what the red algae is. It popped up out of nowhere one day in my oldest tank. If I didn't put some in my fuge, I'd have lost it.
The fuge became infested with aiptasia over the winter, so I ordered some peppermint shrimp a few weeks ago and it's almost all eaten. The aiptasia were having their way with my microfauna and it had to come to an end. There are lots of copepods, amphipods, micro stars, mini brittle stars, pods that swim, pods that crawl, pods I can barely see, nassarius, strombus and astrea snails, spaghetti worms, bristle worms, probably other kinds of worms, etc. I'd like to get one of those microscopes (like A.Calfo uses) to get a better look and for fun.
I find it interesting to watch sometimes. A couple weeks back, I watched a amphipod family re-arrange their house (a spot between the front glass and the sandbed). Even the babies were moving sand.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by mrkalel
I started a show fuge a few months after my main display was running, and I can say it is had been really interesting and cool...

I have a mix of about 7 different macro's, but I started with caulerpa, and that of course grows the best...
(I have looked around for the last few months for a good culture of chaeto but cant find anything...)

I am using a 72 Gal AGA Bow-Front Reef-Ready tank. 6" of Sand, about 50 LBS of rock (Main has about 275 lbs)...
Turnover rate of about 250-300 GPH, with a 650 GPH inside the fuge...

I also have a few things in there that you might not think about
in a fuge...
Multiple anenomes, a snowflake eel, couple of urchins...

But it def cool to see the amount of bristles, brittle stars, amphipods and copepods that run all over...

It is plumbed just like a regular tank, and overflows into the community sump

great setup
you just gave me a great idea-----I have three pincushions in my main tank which are eating a little bit too much corraline for my liking
The the sides of the refugium are so covered with corraline you can't see in it
I'll pop two of them in there and everybody will be happy

do you still feed the anenome in the fuge or just let it feed on larger copopods

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by CaptainCoral
Ok, I've seen yours, I'll show you mine.



I have a maxi-jet 1200 inside one of the overflows on my 180 gallon tank. It feeds the aga 40 gallon breeder tank refugium and drains back into the display. I put cheato in there, but the calupera took it over of which there are three kinds. It is lit 24 hours for about 5 days a week. If I see it struggling, I turn off the lights for 24 hours. It usually looks somewhat faded afterwards, but within a few hours it's nice and green again. I pull out a heaping plate full the size of a nice plate of spaghetti about once a week. I havn't looked into what the red algae is. It popped up out of nowhere one day in my oldest tank. If I didn't put some in my fuge, I'd have lost it.
The fuge became infested with aiptasia over the winter, so I ordered some peppermint shrimp a few weeks ago and it's almost all eaten. The aiptasia were having their way with my microfauna and it had to come to an end. There are lots of copepods, amphipods, micro stars, mini brittle stars, pods that swim, pods that crawl, pods I can barely see, nassarius, strombus and astrea snails, spaghetti worms, bristle worms, probably other kinds of worms, etc. I'd like to get one of those microscopes (like A.Calfo uses) to get a better look and for fun.
I find it interesting to watch sometimes. A couple weeks back, I watched a amphipod family re-arrange their house (a spot between the front glass and the sandbed). Even the babies were moving sand.

great looking fuge also and thanks for posting here--fabulous examples for others
In a fuge the caulerpa looks great but can you imagine someones main tank ending up like that

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by tmz
I really do have to take the time to become more comfortable in digital photography and moving pictures around on the internet. Untill then ,I'm sorry no pictures.

I can mail you my cell phone