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Unread 12/15/2006, 04:50 PM   #201
jnarowe
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hey guys, lighten up about covering the tanks. I have 1280g of open tanks in my tank room and it does just fine. In fact, I do not like covers on my tanks at all because I don't like the buildup on the underside, and I like to promote as much air exchange as possible. Covering tanks keeps the heat in, which can be bad depending on the installation. I don't cover any of my tanks including my FW Planted. I don't want to keep evaporation down on my reef because I like to top-off with kalk. So just because it works for you, doesn't mean it is the right setup for Shawn. I would advise Shawn against covering anything in his system except possibly a species tank with jumpers.


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Unread 12/15/2006, 05:06 PM   #202
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umm yeah.. i never said anything about covering the display tank. it is the sump(s) that should be covered.

so let me get this right.. you are advising AGAINST covering ANYTHING in the system?

you crack me up.. seriously, I am laughing right now...really hard.


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Unread 12/15/2006, 06:03 PM   #203
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yes, I am advising that given certain situations, nothing should be covered. That must be a kind of troll-like laugh yeah? But hey, NBD. You are clearly one of those reefers that knows the right way to do things and the rest of us are just learning.

And let me just reiterate so there is no question on my stance: I do not cover any of my tanks because I do not believe that is the most healthy way to operate. I like my system to have full gas exchange with the fresh air brought in from outside, and my fish enjoy nibbling on the gnats that fall in the tank.


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Unread 12/15/2006, 07:53 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally posted by jnarowe
fresh air brought in from outside
LOL, jnarowe, its funny you post about this because I got to thinking about it yesterday... I have heard/read how fresh air can help raise your pH... Right now I don't have a kalk reactor running (will soon) but I was wondering if I should be pulling in fresh air from outside rather then the air that is in the fishroom/basement... I was thinking I could used a tub leading to the outside that would be hooked to my skimmer air intake... I have 3 small windows in the basement but they are not very easily accessible and with it being cold out I don't want to open them... Would bring in fresh air via the skimmer from the outside be beneficial ?? Pros/ Cons ??


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Unread 12/15/2006, 09:55 PM   #205
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Thats cool your not having any humidity problems,i hope to be so lucky when i get my tanks set up in my new house in the next couple months. So are you just blowing a fan across the surface of the display tank?

And dont take offense that i suggested covering your sumps,im just passing Ideas along that helped a friend of mine in his situation in his basement.I was not sure if you were experiencing issues or not,But i do know that it decreased his evaporation by 80% and he has not complained about any heat issues associated with doing so. The pieces of acrylic are thin and flimsy so they do not completely seal up the sumps,there are small gaps that allow some air exchange. Tank looks awesome by the way!!!!


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Unread 12/15/2006, 10:04 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46bfinGA
Thats cool your not having any humidity problems,i hope to be so lucky when i get my tanks set up in my new house in the next couple months. So are you just blowing a fan across the surface of the display tank?
Right now I am not even using any fans... My temp stays around 77deg... That is with the 5x 250w MHs running (1 over the frag and 4 over the tank) for 7hrs and 15min, and all 8x T5s running for 11hrs... My basement stays between 69 and 72 deg so I am sure that helps as well...


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Unread 12/15/2006, 10:15 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46bfinGA
And dont take offense that i suggested covering your sumps,im just passing Ideas along that helped a friend of mine in his situation in his basement.I was not sure if you were experiencing issues or not,But i do know that it decreased his evaporation by 80% and he has not complained about any heat issues associated with doing so. The pieces of acrylic are thin and flimsy so they do not completely seal up the sumps,there are small gaps that allow some air exchange. Tank looks awesome by the way!!!!
LOL I replied fast then you could get your edit in

I am not going to take offense to anything that anyone has posted or is going to post... Everyone has a different outlook on things and there are may ways to get things done... This is one reason I like RC (or any web forum) as you can ask a question and get multi responses, at that point its up to you to pick the best one that will suit your needs, or at least give you some diff options to look into... I am looking to maybe placing a cover over some of the bins as I think right now I am using my heaters more then I should be... I am also going to look into wrapping some insulation around the bin... Not the stuff you stick in your wall, but I found this 50ft roll that is like 12" wide and about 1/2 thick, I don't need much just something to hold the heat in a little better for the winter months... pwhitby has a 600gal as well and he commented that with it getting cold outside his tank heaters were running a good bit more and since he has wrapped his sump and what not and his system is holding the temp alot better...


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Unread 12/16/2006, 12:32 AM   #208
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I don't have to battle the cold so much as others so I can't speak to that. I do believe that fresh air intake into the tank room (and even the skimmer) is very important for the health of the reef. Give it some thought...how long can you sit in a car before your brain tells you to crack open a window?


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Unread 12/16/2006, 12:45 PM   #209
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Hi Shawn,

AS you know I insulated my sumps (I have a similar setup to yours as far as sumps go). I wrapped the fiberglass batting material around them since they are curved. My 100g refugium is flat (being glass) and I used a double layer of the pink foam and the fiberglass.

I did this at the beginning of the cold weather here. My sumps are in my garage and its generally 40s. Prior to adding the insulation I was having real issues heating the tank to temp. Even with my MH on.

Next day, no problems at all. The heaters come on and off intermittantly and tank temp is extremely stable.

At night when it was to be really cold, I placed a layer of the batting over the sump top (held by pvc pipe). Evaporation rapidly diminished to almost nothing and there was a slickness on the batting underside, but not a great deal.

My garage is reasonably large, even without the batting it was not humid in there.

Now......my tank room: Since I have added the wall there is agreat deal less airflow in there and humidity and heat are an issue...not a major one. I added a simple fan to exhaust the room air from one side (via a window) which draws house air through the door at the other side. Presto....heat and humidity gone.

So...my point is, insulate the barrels on the sides. It will save a LOT of cash on heat and cooling in summer.

Get a decent airflow operating. Even go with lids over them that can be interconnected with ducting to allow room air and be exhausted to the outside.

Have you seen an ECO chiller.....a set up like that that exhausts outside the house would be ideal....in fact im seriously thinking of making one myself.

----longwinded I know, but you are where I was 3 months ago.....damn you caught back up fast.

Paul.


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Unread 12/16/2006, 01:07 PM   #210
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Paul thanks for your post, I am always looking for ways to save money

Got a link to the ECO chiller ?? Right now I have a 290cfm fan hooked up that exhausts the humid air outside... I would like to get more "fresh air" into the room thou...


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Unread 12/16/2006, 01:33 PM   #211
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One way to do that is make a shroud over the top of the sump. One inlet allows room air in. The second "inlet" connect to the fan with ducting.

Humid air is then sucked from the area above the sump and directly exhausted. Room air is drawn into the area above the sump.

That way you dont have humidity entering the room, but you do have good air circulation over the sump.

As for eco chiller, just do a search on RC. they are very expensive "cooling towers" that remove heat by blowing air through droplets of water. Evaporation cools water but you lose a lot of H20 to evap. They use about 100w to cool our size tanks.
But the water replacement becomes an issue.

P.


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Unread 12/16/2006, 01:57 PM   #212
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Thats very true... the more 'exact' you can be with the air ducting, the better it works. A fish room might be an easy way to do things, but the relative amount of fans you would need to move all of that air compared to just a canopy is huge. Sectioning off certain 'critical points' for ventilation really helps target the heat and humidity.

In January, I start building the new reef. Its going to be too large for my apartment though... wattage wise and humidity/heat wise. So Im doing several measures to 'take the reef outside'. The canopy will be ducted with 4" ducting that leads to the outside, and will have a 120cfm fan on it... sucking the hot and humid air to the outside. That, and I will have only one halide, rather than 2 (the tank is going to be 48x30x20), but that one will be on a light mover in the canopy, and supplimented with 6 rows of T5s. Even the skimmer will draw its air from the outside via a 1/2" pipe, and the air in the skimmate cup will get returned to the outside via another 1/2" pipe. No funky smells in my living room!!


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Unread 12/16/2006, 10:56 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally posted by asnatlas
I am going to look into smaller UV unit... I would like to run the unit without a dedicated (extra) pump, I have a can filter right now that I use for a carbon reactor, but the flow is not very high... I might look at adding a 36w Turbo Twist to the output of the can filter, I would like to get the OCF 375, but again don't want to have another pump added to the system, and I don't want to take much more return away from my Dart...
I am really thinking about getting the 36w Turbo Twist and adding it to the output of my Eheim Canister Filter (used for carbon)... I don't need something that will kill anything and everything on a single pass...

I was also looking at the OCF 375, but if I did that I would prob get an Eheim 1250 (28w) (317 gph)... Like I said I don't really want to add another pump into my system...

The OCF setup has a 18w UV and would be using like 46w per hr with the Eheim 1250... If I got the 36w Turbo Twist and used it with my Eheim Canister Filter it would be using like 56w per hr but would be a little less flow...

If I went with the OCF would 300gph be OK ?? I am sure I could split off a feed line from the Dart, but anything much more then that I would want to feed it another way... I just want to get the most for my money with the least amount of equipment...


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Unread 12/17/2006, 06:51 AM   #214
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Do you have a quarantine set up not connected to the display system? If so, can you post some pics of it so I can get some ideas for a new larger one?


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Unread 12/17/2006, 07:08 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally posted by cward
Do you have a quarantine set up not connected to the display system? If so, can you post some pics of it so I can get some ideas for a new larger one?
I just have a temp QT setup for right now, I am using a 100gal rubbermaid tub with a skimmer, nothing special, I am looking for ideas myself...


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Unread 12/17/2006, 08:45 AM   #216
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I just set up my 50 qt yesterday. Skimmer, small uv, and air driven sponge filter.


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Unread 12/17/2006, 10:52 AM   #217
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I know this wasn't your question, but I thought I'd post my checklist for a quarantine tank (QT) or hospital tank (HT). QT & HT is a matter of quality rather than quantity. You need enough room for tangs and those impulse buys, but less is more in most cases as water changes and medications go farther. You don't have to follow all of my suggestions, just use it as a guideline. Due to the scope of the post, I have excluded medication dosage and handling practices.

1) A lid to keep in jumpers (glass or egg-crate). Wrasse and gobies are far more likely to jump in a small empty tank. PVC hiding places will also help.

2) A heater. much more important than in display tank. Unlike freshwater, marine ich is cued by temperature increases, rather than decreases. A heater will make a consistent temp.

3) Indirect, diffused light. Try to keep a ten hour photo-period to reduce stress. Many antibiotics are photo-degradable, so direct light should be avoided. Sudden light flashes as experienced with fluorescents will cause fish to jump and go into shock.

4) An artificial bio-filter. This can be a bio-wheel or canister filter that is normally run on the display tank to keep it cycled. It is too small to adversely affect the display tank. Remember not to use carbon as it will remove medications. Alternatively, you could just store the filter media in the display tanks sump to keep the bacteria viable.

5) Have plastic cups to catch and move fish. Unlike freshwater fish, marine fish haven't adapted to breathing atmospheric air even for a brief period of time. Most secondary bacterial infections are caused by fish net abrasions.

6) An ultraviolet (UV) sterilizer. They cost a couple hundred dollars but they will pay themselves off after they save a few fish. The bulb will last a long time as it will only be used while you have fish in the QT. You could borrow a UV sterilizer from the display tank without causing too much trouble. UV sterilization should be discontinued if you are using antibiotics.

7) Have medications on hand so they are there when you need them. I use chloramphenical and neomycin together as a prophylactic treatment for bacterial infections. I use coppersafe or cupramine with quinacrine hydrochloride (quinine) for parasites. Malachite green, formalin, and nitrofurazone are also good to have around, but they adversely affect water quality and should be used only when needed. Rifampin or isoniazid should also be used prophylactically to prevent marine tuberculosis (mycobacterium) which is very common in new arrivals. Dewormers such as piperazine should be given in the food. None of these preventative treatments greatly affect water quality and will not cause significant mutation (resistant strains) of pathogens. Quarantine for 21 days minimum to break the parasite life cycle.

8) Keep a low salinity of 1.013 to 1.017. Stressed marine fish can dehydrate when placed in standard salinity water (1.023+). They don't have a healthy slime coat to regulate osmotic pressure and have to work a lot harder to pump salts out of their bodies. A lower salinity will also slow fish metabolism and kill parasites. Ammonia is also less toxic at a lower salinity as well. Fish adapt well to being moved to water with a lower salinity. They adapt poorly to moves to higher salinity.

9) Keep mixed saltwater on hand. Use display tank water for QT tank water changes. Add new saltwater to display. This will remove nitrogen compounds from QT and supply fresh pro-biotics (micro-organisms that will out-compete with pathogens). Following this practice assures that the quarantined fish will be acclimated to display tank water at all times. Remember to top-off meds and adjust salinity. One week before moving the QT fish to the display tank, you can start adding more display tank water to slowly raise the salinity to avoid osmotic shock.

10) Use large pvc pipe segments for hiding places. Paint back and side walls to provide additional shelter.

11) If a disease breaks out, sterilize the tank with bleach before re-use.

12) have a bucket of aerated freshwater of equal temperature handy for freshwater dips. Don't use RO/DI water for freshwater dips. Tap-water has a closer PH and general hardness. The chlorine is also medicinal as an oxidant.

13) Make sure your medications are compatible. Formalin and nitrofurazone don't mix for example. EM (erythromycin) doesn't mix with calcium salts, and EM and nitrofurazone don't mix well either.

14) Medications have a treatment and prophylactic dose. For example, copper should be 15 ppm for QT and 30 ppm for HT (hospital tank).

15) Use a bare bottom, so you can wipe the inside surfaces daily (in HT). This will dislodge and kill parasites in the tomont, trophont, and dinospore stages of their life cycle. A diatom filter will remove these 25-50 micron parasites. You also want to avoid calcareous media as it binds copper.

16) Medicating the food will help treat the fish for internal bacterial, parasite, and fungal infections without adversely affecting water quality. Short freshwater dips and medicated saltwater baths will also help.

17) A flashlight is a very effective tool while evaluating fish health. It casts a shadow if cysts are present. This gives you a good head start for treatment.

18) A sharp, new, single edged razor blade can be used to trim away lymphocystis on the margins of fins.

19) Use a dedicated net for the QT and HT. You can use potassium permanganate or methylene blue as a net disinfectant. Segregate any thermometers, towels, feeding devices, and wash your hands to avoid spreading pathogens to the display tank.

20) A good camera will help you take pictures to submit for help in diagnosis and treatment.

21) Have a smaller, second HT tank for very sick fish. This helps eliminate fish to fish disease transmission as the healthy fish pick on the sick ones.


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Unread 12/17/2006, 11:49 AM   #218
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mr.wilson, Thanks alot for your post


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Unread 12/17/2006, 01:22 PM   #219
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Shawn, the Eco Coolers are made by Deltec, you can find some older threads (back to the summer time) in their forum here on RC. They actually run about 48w (from our testing here, but we didn't include feed pump wattage since it is just tee'd off of our return pump), and I had a couple of threads in that forum myself, with eletrical usage data and outside temps/tank temps data, almost daily.

As for water evap, our ATO system made that a non-issue, but if you don't have a good ATO of some sort, then I wouldn't really recommend an Eco Cooler.

Granted this was on our current, smaller, tank, but still, what with the heatwave this past summer, it really got a workout



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Unread 12/17/2006, 01:53 PM   #220
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great post mr.wilson! Thanks.


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Unread 12/17/2006, 02:58 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally posted by jnarowe
great post mr.wilson! Thanks.
I could not agree more, very inciteful and concise.

btw, Mr. Wilson, I have PM-ed you a question.

Paul.


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Unread 12/17/2006, 03:55 PM   #222
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mr.wilson...could you recommend a book about quarantine and hospital tanks, where I could study mroe about the meds you mentioned. I'm setting up a 390 gallon display. I have a 50 gallon quarantine, but have never quarantined before. I read all I can find on Reef Central and in Reef Keeping Magazine online, but would like some form of reference book on the subject. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

pwhitby...I studied your subjects in college in Oklahoma...what part of the state are you in?


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Unread 12/17/2006, 11:05 PM   #223
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BTW, when I set up my QT/HT tank, I included dual float valves. One is for top-off with RO/DI and the other is from the main system. It has a gate valve also and I can remove water from the QT, and allow it to refill with system water. The main system feed is from an elevated refugium, so it's gravity feed.


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Unread 12/18/2006, 01:41 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by jnarowe
BTW, when I set up my QT/HT tank, I included dual float valves. One is for top-off with RO/DI and the other is from the main system. It has a gate valve also and I can remove water from the QT, and allow it to refill with system water. The main system feed is from an elevated refugium, so it's gravity feed.
That's an excellent idea. The easier it is to do, the more likely you are to do it. The other major benefit is you avoid cross contamination as you try to remember which end of the siphon hose went in which tank.

The best (technical) disease treatment books I've come across are "Treatment of Exotic marie Fish Diseases" by DR. Edward Kingsford (long out of print, but I'll post his QT procedure some time this week), http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Drugs...dp/039803852X, http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Fish-...dp/0866227032, http://www.amazon.com/Textbook-Fish-...dp/0866224912, and http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Fish_Medi...?isrc=b-search

I was disappointed in this book, but it's good for a beginner. The information is accurate, but brief. http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/.../6745/cid/2857


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Unread 12/18/2006, 05:24 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally posted by mr.wilson
The best (technical) disease treatment books I've come across are "Treatment of Exotic marie Fish Diseases" by DR. Edward Kingsford (long out of print, but I'll post his QT procedure some time this week), http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Drugs...dp/039803852X, http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Fish-...dp/0866227032, http://www.amazon.com/Textbook-Fish-...dp/0866224912, and http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Fish_Medi...?isrc=b-search
Your Amazon book links are not working


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