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Old 11/01/2014, 11:31 AM   #26
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Triton charges $41.50 - $49 depending on the quantity of test kits purchased.

Wouldn't acros be more sensitive to Aluminum than a leather? Would 0.05 ppm be problematic for them?
I don't know, but historically, leathers have been the firs to show aluminum issues.


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Old 11/01/2014, 11:58 AM   #27
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Dkeller, I thought perhaps the silica may have come from the KZ sponge power. Thoughts?


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Old 11/01/2014, 12:42 PM   #28
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Hmm I'm about to put a block of this in a 30g system.. Do you think it would leach slowly over its lifetime, or just when it's first added?


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Old 11/01/2014, 01:35 PM   #29
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Hmm I'm about to put a block of this in a 30g system.. Do you think it would leach slowly over its lifetime, or just when it's first added?
I don't know if anything is coming off of this material (especially since they do not say what exactly it is), but assuming it behaves like aluminum oxide, I'd expect more released quickly and then much less over time as the most easily dissolved bits (ions at the edges of crystals, for example) disappear and the surface gets coated with things that hold down further dissolution (such as phosphate, maybe organics, etc.).


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Old 11/01/2014, 01:37 PM   #30
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Dkeller, I thought perhaps the silica may have come from the KZ sponge power. Thoughts?
That might be likely, if they put silicate into it. I would, but they don't generally reveal ingredients.


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Old 11/01/2014, 01:44 PM   #31
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FWIW, I just got a response from someone on another forum who had high aluminum (>0.1 ppm) and he does use Phosguard as well as GAC.

So the use of GAC alone does not necessarily keep aluminum at "normal" seawater levels.


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Old 11/01/2014, 04:04 PM   #32
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Anything intended to feed sponges might have some silicate in it, since some types of sponges create a silicate-based skeleton. I fed silica to my tank for a while to encourage sponge growth. I am not certain that it helped, though.


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Old 11/02/2014, 03:18 AM   #33
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But no test results for aluminum, right?

Seachem has been swearing that Phosguard releases no aluminum for years, despite my showing otherwise. Now users of aluminum oxide media are detecting aluminum using the widespread availability of Triton's test method.

Duh, Seachem used a method to test for aluminum which wasn't sensitive enough to see it. Duh.

So to be clear, I'n not saying either that your product releases aluminum (but it is a concern I have and some experiments that folks are running might tell more) nor am I saying that the aluminum released is necessarily causing problems. BUT, the aluminum released from aluminum oxide binders has been known to cause problems, and I personally added aluminum to a test tank in an amount similar to what some people are getting (and what I saw released from Phosguard) and did see problems with several types of corals.

So I'm stating this as a caution and a reason I'd avoid this particular product until these issues are straightened out to my satisfaction.
Actually, I'm pretty sure aluminium was tested for. But hey, that was before my time. I just remember they saying that they couldn't find anything leaching substantially. I guess that could also mean they did find aluminium leaching, just not to a worrying degree.

But yeah, I agree that it is unclear if it is leaching or not, I am saying though that even if it is leaching, it doesn't seem to cause any issues.

Example of an recently set up tank with way too much Marine Pure than the minimum recommended and a tank that's been up and running for a year were both amongst my examples, so I am just saying that either way, it doesn't seem to be a problem.


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Old 11/02/2014, 03:36 AM   #34
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Triton charges $41.50 - $49 depending on the quantity of test kits purchased.

Wouldn't acros be more sensitive to Aluminum than a leather? Would 0.05 ppm be problematic for them?
Do you need to send it to Germany?


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Old 11/02/2014, 04:33 AM   #35
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I have been running the 8x8x4 blook for a couple years. Tank does well most of the time but I am currious what my triton results will be. I will post results when they get back to me. It does a great job filtering my tank but if it is leaching aluminum then it will be gone from my system.


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Old 11/02/2014, 06:48 AM   #36
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Do you need to send it to Germany?
It is mailed in the US using their own bag.


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Old 11/02/2014, 07:39 AM   #37
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Dkeller, I thought perhaps the silica may have come from the KZ sponge power. Thoughts?
Certainly - there are a lot of potential (other) sources of silica. But if one had an alumina-silicate based ceramic in the system, one would expect to find aluminum and silicate if it's dissolving/leaching to any substantial degree.


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Old 11/02/2014, 08:20 AM   #38
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What about ceramic rocks? Are they made of the same thing?


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Old 11/02/2014, 08:28 AM   #39
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Randy - how confident are you with triton's test methods? any idea what methodology they are using? How do they avoid the interferences from any of the other elements? Detection limits? What's their precision/accuracy?


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Old 11/02/2014, 09:31 AM   #40
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I have seen the detection limits, and they have posted them somewhere (I saw a reposted copy). At my suggestion, they are going to rework their data presentation to not suggest the values are more precise than the detection limits allow. Right now, one might misunderstand how low 0.00 ug/l really is, since in some cases it might only mean less than 0.5 ug/L.

The ICP method is fine overall (I've used it myself for various studies), as long as they do recognize the interferences that may exist. The fact that only some samples get unusually high values for things like aluminum, tin, or lead, suggests it is not a systemic problem.

They did tell me that really high phosphate will interfere with iodine, but I do not know what all other issues they may have to deal with.

It is a method that one can and must run standards to get values for the various elements. i hope and expect they are doing that correctly, but I cannot know for sure.


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Old 11/02/2014, 09:32 AM   #41
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What about ceramic rocks? Are they made of the same thing?
Which rocks?


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Old 11/02/2014, 10:41 AM   #42
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Which rocks?
http://cerameco.com/gallery/

That's one of them.


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Old 11/02/2014, 10:46 AM   #43
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I don't know. It sounds like a cement, and people have been using cement rocks for a long time, but exactly what is put into them may make a difference. Cement varies a lot, but often is mostly calcium silicate with some aluminum and iron and other stuff.

FWIW, surface area is critcal for the release of poorly soluble components, so the risks are greater in the same material made high surface area as opposed to just a clod.


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Old 11/03/2014, 04:26 AM   #44
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I don't know. It sounds like a cement, and people have been using cement rocks for a long time, but exactly what is put into them may make a difference. Cement varies a lot, but often is mostly calcium silicate with some aluminum and iron and other stuff.

FWIW, surface area is critcal for the release of poorly soluble components, so the risks are greater in the same material made high surface area as opposed to just a clod.
It sounds like a cement? I think it sounds like a clay. Clay and cement are different, aren't they?


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Old 11/03/2014, 05:02 AM   #45
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It sounds like a cement? I think it sounds like a clay. Clay and cement are different, aren't they?
They are different. I have no idea what it actually is made of. Lots of people make their own cement rocks, so that seemed likely to me.


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Old 11/03/2014, 08:01 AM   #46
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http://cerameco.com/gallery/

That's one of them.
Just FYI, I have had vidarock as the entire amount of liverock in my system for 2 years, Triton test showed no elevated aluminum.


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Old 11/03/2014, 08:12 AM   #47
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Just FYI, I have had vidarock as the entire amount of liverock in my system for 2 years, Triton test showed no elevated aluminum.
That's good news. Do you know what it's made of? If not, can you ask them?


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Old 11/03/2014, 08:16 AM   #48
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I have no idea what their ceramic is made of, but I suppose an email to the company can't hurt.


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Old 11/03/2014, 10:48 AM   #49
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I just received a response from Paul at Cermedia (makers of Marinepure). He gave me permission to post his email:

Thank you for your question. I have been following several threads discussing aluminum and it is all very interesting. Our product does contain Alumina, which is Aluminum tied up with oxygen in ceramic form, not the metallic form of Aluminum, or aluminum ion as measured by the Triton test. Most ceramics will contain some alumina. Our products have been used many years with great success by sophisticated reefers and they have never seen a problem.


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Old 11/03/2014, 10:51 AM   #50
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Just FYI, I have had vidarock as the entire amount of liverock in my system for 2 years, Triton test showed no elevated aluminum.
This is good news as I also use Vida rocks.


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