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Unread 04/07/2016, 09:28 AM   #1101
tmz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxenfilly23 View Post
Hi all,

This has been an amazing thread and I have ready all 44 pages of it in its entirety. I had an ich outbreak in my DT (didn't quarantine new fish like an idiot) and treated the entire 180 gallon tank with Rid-ich Plus for a couple of weeks. I then moved the fish to a quarantine tank and treated with Cupramine for 2 weeks. They moved back into the DT in November. What are the chances there is still ich in my DT? I currently have 5 new fish going through the TT method and quarantine but after reading through everything in this thread I'm really second guessing if my DT is "clean". I have learned SOOO much over the past month and am really trying to do things right now. Should I pull all of my fish out of the DT, do TT with them, and leave the tank fallow for 72 days, or is over a 5 months with zero signs of ich any form of security? I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this question... I hate to put my Foxface back into the hospital tank agian, he really really hated it last time around and bashed himself around enough he got popeye (which he has now recovered from).

The rid ich by Kordan contains 4.26% formalin which is effective against ich in the free swimming phase but I wouldn't consider it reef safe.

The tank likely may still have viable encysted parasites which will likely attack new fish. It needs to be fishless for 72 days. Any fish in there will prolong the ich infestation indefinitely. I'd set up a cycled holding tank or two for the infested fish after TTM treatment or two with some structure like pvc pipe cuttings for resting places.

Some may die since many don't survive an initial infestation.


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Unread 04/12/2016, 05:25 PM   #1102
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Quick question for the DZ experts. Hypothetical question. Seeing how some LFS keep their fish in Cu, if the Cu suppresses the symptoms of ich and they appear a month later, if one does TTM today lets say, does that mean after TTM then ich can appear then?


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Unread 04/12/2016, 07:47 PM   #1103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbvdhp View Post
Quick question for the DZ experts. Hypothetical question. Seeing how some LFS keep their fish in Cu, if the Cu suppresses the symptoms of ich and they appear a month later, if one does TTM today lets say, does that mean after TTM then ich can appear then?


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No. But the formalin dip precedes TTM.


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Unread 04/15/2016, 10:12 AM   #1104
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Copper treatment at the proper dose and for the recommended time( 2 weeks IIRC) kills the parasite in the free swimming phase and does eradicate the parasite almost all of the time. So, the answer to your question depends on how the lfs uses copper. Low doses may just slow things down and may give the parasite an opportunity to develop strains with some resistance to the copper. I doubt this would cause the parasite to linger in the fish and remerge later . I don't know of any data to support that notion. In any case TT treatment followed by a qt observation period should cover it.


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Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.
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Unread 04/15/2016, 11:48 AM   #1105
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My understanding would be that running low levels of copper could suppress the symptoms, but ich is still going to follow its standard life cycle so the TTM should still work as intended.


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I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple."

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Unread 04/15/2016, 12:55 PM   #1106
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I've had problems quarantining flasher wrasses and Chloroquine phosphate so I'm using the tank transfer method. I did the second transfer yesterday and he's doing well. He would be due for the third transfer early Sunday morning. I have to go out of town on Sunday afternoon for five days. I'm wondering if it would be best to transfer him a third time on Sunday morning and hope that he's all clear, wait until I get back and start over again, do the third transfer and go through the whole process again when I get back.


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Unread 04/15/2016, 07:27 PM   #1107
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Originally Posted by friartuuk View Post
I've had problems quarantining flasher wrasses and Chloroquine phosphate so I'm using the tank transfer method. I did the second transfer yesterday and he's doing well. He would be due for the third transfer early Sunday morning. I have to go out of town on Sunday afternoon for five days. I'm wondering if it would be best to transfer him a third time on Sunday morning and hope that he's all clear, wait until I get back and start over again, do the third transfer and go through the whole process again when I get back.
Since you will be missing the fourth transfer, you're going to need to start over regardless. If it were me, I'd just keep the fish where he is for now and restart TTM when it can be fully completed.


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Unread 04/16/2016, 07:53 AM   #1108
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Thanks Deinonych. That's what I'll do.


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Unread 04/20/2016, 05:50 AM   #1109
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I have been treating all fish for my new tank with TTM + prazi, plus the aditional observation weeks.
I have also built a coral QT fishless DT to quarentine all coral and inverts for 72 days to be sure no ich gets in my new system.

When I started 3 years ago I did not QT fish, so everything in my fist tank is not treated but I have never seen ich .
since fish are not treated I have to asume there is ich and I am not free to move one fish from this tank to my new built with out following the QT protocol for fish and coral.

I have become paranoic with ich.
question: if I get my arms wet working in my fist tank were I did not treat fish, and supposing there is ich there. how much time should I allow my arms to dry before getting my hand in my new system that has gone through a strict QT protocol??

my concern is transmiting ich to the other system by getting hands in tank and the other.


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Unread 04/20/2016, 04:51 PM   #1110
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Guys, you think I can get away with putting a 5-6" Naso and 5-6" Achilles in a 18 gallon sterilite tub to do TTM?


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Unread 04/27/2016, 07:20 PM   #1111
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Anyone done TTM on a leopard wrasse? I can put a dish of sand in each tank, but I usually transfer in the morning before lights are on - I'm thinking I will have to dig him out of the sand for transfer, but is there an easier or less stressful way?


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I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple."

Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles
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Unread 04/28/2016, 03:30 PM   #1112
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Question for you all on TTM. Thinking about trying this on my next QT, and had an idea to reduce some work/resources.
Since bleach will kill ich (and everything else), I was thinking of doing the following:

Two tanks setup with 35ppt SW. Fish placed in first tank, held for 72 hours, then moved to next tank. Water in tank number 1 receives 8% sodium hypochlorite at 1ml/L water. All equipment in tank number one is disinfected in bleach solution and after 24 hour period, 8% solution of Sodium thiosulfate added at 1ml/L to dechlorinate.
Fish transferred back at the 2nd 72 hour point. Same bleach routine applied to tank number 2, and this is repeated until all transfers are completed.

Will the bleach at that concentration kill all life stages of ich in that time period (24 hours)? Or is more time or a higher concentration required? The dechlorinator will be effective when added at that ratio so I am not terribly concerned with the chlorine being an issue. Also, Seachem Prime added to ameliorate any ammonia concerns. Any thoughts or critiques would be welcome.
Thought this might simplify the process significantly.


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Unread 04/28/2016, 03:48 PM   #1113
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Why not just get a third heater and plastic box? Probably not much more expensive and at least as effective and no worries about bleach residues when transferring the fish.

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Unread 04/28/2016, 06:10 PM   #1114
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Sorry, should clarify, I am reusing the water. Once dechlorinated with Sodium thiosulfate it will not be an issue (at least that is my experience in the past) but wondering what concentration of bleach is proper.


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Unread 04/28/2016, 09:03 PM   #1115
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Oh, wow. Never thought about doing that...

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180 liter, sumpless reef, no skimmer for the moment.

Current Tank Info: Juwel VISION 180, currently only invertebrates, planning to have low bioload as I have no skimmer and no refugium for the moment.
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Unread 04/30/2016, 05:05 AM   #1116
andy01748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebicyclecafe View Post
Question for you all on TTM. Thinking about trying this on my next QT, and had an idea to reduce some work/resources.
Since bleach will kill ich (and everything else), I was thinking of doing the following:

Two tanks setup with 35ppt SW. Fish placed in first tank, held for 72 hours, then moved to next tank. Water in tank number 1 receives 8% sodium hypochlorite at 1ml/L water. All equipment in tank number one is disinfected in bleach solution and after 24 hour period, 8% solution of Sodium thiosulfate added at 1ml/L to dechlorinate.
Fish transferred back at the 2nd 72 hour point. Same bleach routine applied to tank number 2, and this is repeated until all transfers are completed.

Will the bleach at that concentration kill all life stages of ich in that time period (24 hours)? Or is more time or a higher concentration required? The dechlorinator will be effective when added at that ratio so I am not terribly concerned with the chlorine being an issue. Also, Seachem Prime added to ameliorate any ammonia concerns. Any thoughts or critiques would be welcome.
Thought this might simplify the process significantly.
Not recommended, since the chlorine may also react with other organic compounds present to form chlorinated toxic byproducts that will not be neutralized with Prime. For example, regulated toxic trihalomethane compounds found in relatively pristine drinking water are formed as byproducts from disinfection using chlorine.


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Unread 04/30/2016, 04:03 PM   #1117
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Not recommended, since the chlorine may also react with other organic compounds present to form chlorinated toxic byproducts that will not be neutralized with Prime. For example, regulated toxic trihalomethane compounds found in relatively pristine drinking water are formed as byproducts from disinfection using chlorine.
I agree. While bleach works great as a disinfectant, it's best to rinse all equipment thoroughly after bleaching, then completely dry before refilling. I would never reuse water during TTM.


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Unread 05/01/2016, 12:10 AM   #1118
thebicyclecafe
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Not recommended, since the chlorine may also react with other organic compounds present to form chlorinated toxic byproducts that will not be neutralized with Prime. For example, regulated toxic trihalomethane compounds found in relatively pristine drinking water are formed as byproducts from disinfection using chlorine.
Thanks for the feedback. I am curious if you have some documentation on that, since chlorine disinfection of culture water is fairly common practice in aquaculture, followed by dechlorination with Sodium thiosulfate. Though household bleach is not the chlorine source of choice in such applications, it is the easiest to obtain for the average hobbyist. I personally do this on all phytoplankton cultures and copepod cultures, although unnecessary for maintenance of my larval tanks. Typical concentrations used in such applications are around the 1ml/L of 6-8% Sodium hypochlorite.


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Unread 05/01/2016, 05:31 AM   #1119
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Originally Posted by thebicyclecafe View Post
Thanks for the feedback. I am curious if you have some documentation on that, since chlorine disinfection of culture water is fairly common practice in aquaculture, followed by dechlorination with Sodium thiosulfate. Though household bleach is not the chlorine source of choice in such applications, it is the easiest to obtain for the average hobbyist. I personally do this on all phytoplankton cultures and copepod cultures, although unnecessary for maintenance of my larval tanks. Typical concentrations used in such applications are around the 1ml/L of 6-8% Sodium hypochlorite.
Is common knowledge in the drinking water industry. For example:

http://www.cdc.gov/safewater/chlorin...yproducts.html

However, to answer your question, and you still want to go this route (which I personally wouldn't do), 60 mg/L of chlorine for 24 hours is documented as successful for disinfection of all Cryptocaryon irritans life stages.


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Unread 05/01/2016, 07:34 AM   #1120
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Originally Posted by andy01748 View Post
60 mg/L of chlorine
Anyone volunteer to do the conversion for this to household bleach per gallon? I'm not interested in re-using the water, but I would be interested in adding bleach to the tank after the fish is removed, keep the tank running with bleach-water for 24h, drain, rinse and dry for 24h, followed by re-setup.

For me, part of the benefit of 100% water change every three days is keeping the ammonia down in an uncycled tank. How does ammonia/ammonia binders fit in to this discussion as far as the water re-use is concerned? Does either one react with bleach of sodium thiosulfate negatively? Like I said I'm not interested in re-using the water, but something else to tink about for those who are.


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I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple."

Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles
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Unread 05/01/2016, 10:31 AM   #1121
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Depends on the concentration on the bottle. But at most household concentrations you can use the same amounts. Let's use 6%. Bleach is roughly 1.09 grams/mL. 95% of sodium hypochlorite is available chlorine, so here goes. If you have 1mL of 6% sodium hypochlorite, you have 1.09 g/mL x 6% x 95% = 0.062g available chlorine, or 62mg. Thus, if you add it to 1L of water you are functionally at the quoted 60mg/L. So, 1ml/L, which is the typical concentration for disinfection of culture medium. Ammonia binders... if there is ammonia in the water you want to bind it, regardless of chlorine. The fact that chlorine will bond with it to form chloramine doesn't change anything since once dechlroinated it just releases the bond and you have free ammonia. I have not read or heard of an ammonia binder reacting with sodium thiosulfate negatively. In fact Seachem's prime is both. I would however dechlorinate with straight sodium thiosulfate first since you could mix it to a known concentration. The water will most likely have ammonia in it since the tank would have little means of biological filtration. Although... one could theoretically soak 4 sponge filters for a few weeks in an established sump and place one into the QT when each transfer is made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LobsterOfJustice View Post
Anyone volunteer to do the conversion for this to household bleach per gallon? I'm not interested in re-using the water, but I would be interested in adding bleach to the tank after the fish is removed, keep the tank running with bleach-water for 24h, drain, rinse and dry for 24h, followed by re-setup.

For me, part of the benefit of 100% water change every three days is keeping the ammonia down in an uncycled tank. How does ammonia/ammonia binders fit in to this discussion as far as the water re-use is concerned? Does either one react with bleach of sodium thiosulfate negatively? Like I said I'm not interested in re-using the water, but something else to tink about for those who are.




Last edited by thebicyclecafe; 05/01/2016 at 10:40 AM.
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Unread 05/01/2016, 10:42 AM   #1122
thebicyclecafe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy01748 View Post
Is common knowledge in the drinking water industry. For example:

http://www.cdc.gov/safewater/chlorin...yproducts.html

However, to answer your question, and you still want to go this route (which I personally wouldn't do), 60 mg/L of chlorine for 24 hours is documented as successful for disinfection of all Cryptocaryon irritans life stages.
Thanks. There is a section mentioning that if organic matter can be filtered out, it may reduce the possibility of THMs forming. If I do ever go this route it is helpful to know to filter first. I am thinking down to 25 microns.


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Unread 05/01/2016, 08:57 PM   #1123
LobsterOfJustice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebicyclecafe View Post
Depends on the concentration on the bottle. But at most household concentrations you can use the same amounts. Let's use 6%. Bleach is roughly 1.09 grams/mL. 95% of sodium hypochlorite is available chlorine, so here goes. If you have 1mL of 6% sodium hypochlorite, you have 1.09 g/mL x 6% x 95% = 0.062g available chlorine, or 62mg. Thus, if you add it to 1L of water you are functionally at the quoted 60mg/L. So, 1ml/L, which is the typical concentration for disinfection of culture medium. Ammonia binders... if there is ammonia in the water you want to bind it, regardless of chlorine. The fact that chlorine will bond with it to form chloramine doesn't change anything since once dechlroinated it just releases the bond and you have free ammonia. I have not read or heard of an ammonia binder reacting with sodium thiosulfate negatively. In fact Seachem's prime is both. I would however dechlorinate with straight sodium thiosulfate first since you could mix it to a known concentration. The water will most likely have ammonia in it since the tank would have little means of biological filtration. Although... one could theoretically soak 4 sponge filters for a few weeks in an established sump and place one into the QT when each transfer is made.


I wonder if you have treated the tank with prime to control ammonia while the fish was in it, and you add bleach once the fish is removed, is it possible the prime you had previously dosed will render the bleach ineffective and you will not get proper sterilization?


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I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple."

Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles
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Unread 05/01/2016, 09:55 PM   #1124
tmz
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Anyone done TTM on a leopard wrasse? I can put a dish of sand in each tank, but I usually transfer in the morning before lights are on - I'm thinking I will have to dig him out of the sand for transfer, but is there an easier or less stressful way?


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I did leopard a few years ago. I've also done several other burying wrasses I I turn the lights on and provide some food . The wrasses come out ; I remove the dish of sand ;then draw the water down to about 2 inches before capture. I never dug one out of the sand ;seems like it would be difficult to do without stressing it or transferring some sand with the slime web some use at night.


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Unread 05/17/2016, 10:15 AM   #1125
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Sorry if this has been covered already, but should I use a new air-stone and new tubing with each transfer or will fully submerging and rinsing the previously used ones is bleach solution be sufficient for avoiding cross contamination? I assume the tubing at least, should be fine



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