Cryptocaryon Irritans - tank transfer method

[pfan151]

Originally Posted by tmz

Why do 6 transfers when 4 is sufficient? Each transfer carries some risk to the fish ,extra work and the possibililty of adding a theront or tomont and less time for drying if only two tanks are being used .However, if you want to work your own variation have at it.

I just do two days because most of the fish I have been doing TTM on are pretty delicate fish that will only eat frozen food or fresh clams (butterflies, regal angels). That makes the water pretty nasty pretty quick.


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[btb72]

Couple questions. I've never done ttm before and making sure I ha e everything in order. Can you do multiple fish in same 10g buckets. For wrasses that need to sleeep in sand use it but throw out after wards. Do most people do ttm and then qt to check for other diseases or qt before hand? Also if a net isn't advised how do you move the fish without taking water with it.

[tmz]

Originally Posted by btb72

Couple questions. I've never done ttm before and making sure I ha e everything in order.

Can you do multiple fish in same 10g buckets.

Yes, if they are small, compatible in terms of aggression and have resting places like pieces of pvc pipe. Personally I prefer ten gallon tanks or sometimes 20 gallon tanks. I try not to buy too many fish at once.



For wrasses that need to sleeep in sand use it but throw out after wards.

Yes, a small bowl of sand does well;discard it and replace it with each transfer transfer .




Do most people do ttm and then qt to check for other diseases or qt before hand?

Yes,some skip that step but I usually put them in a cycled qt tank for an extra two weeks to 3 three weeks after the transfer treatment to observe for maldies other than ick .

Also if a net isn't advised how do you move the fish without taking water with it.

Some use their gloved hand gently ; I usually use a fine mesh net(brine shrimp net). It's easier if everything is taken out of the tank including most of the water before catching the fish.



This thread of mine includes a lot of details and may be of interest:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...+tank+transfer

[btb72]

Thanks tom

[tmz]

You are welcome. Good luck.

[Heuristic]

What about introducing something like Chaeto to a tank? How do you make sure that it does not have ICH?

[tmz]

Not a likely source unless it was kept in an infested tank or system where a cyst might settle on it. To be certain you'd have to keep it in a separate fishless tank for 72 days.

[Heuristic]

Originally Posted by tmz

Not a likely source unless it was kept in an infested tank or system where a cyst might settle on it. To be certain you'd have to keep it in a separate fishless tank for 72 days.

Why wouldn't a TTM method on Chaeto work the same way as fish? Would it carry too much water to the next tank to be effective?


Also, why wouldn't a long freshwater dip work with Chaeto?

[Breadman03]

Originally Posted by Heuristic

Why wouldn't a TTM method on Chaeto work the same way as fish? Would it carry too much water to the next tank to be effective?





Also, why wouldn't a long freshwater dip work with Chaeto?

Transferring the fish is based on the shortest time it takes for the ich to drop off, encyst, then hatch and reinfect the fish, combined with the maximum time the parasite stays on the fish. That is why we transfer the fish after no more than 72 hours in a tank. That is the least amount of time for the parasite to drop off, then reinfect.

The 14 day minimum process is because we know that no parasites will remain in the fish from the beginning of the process, and we have transferred the fish before any new parasites could attach.

Ich can stay encysted on a surface for up to 72 days, so chaeto could have a parasite encysted on it for up to 72 days after it was removed from an infected system.

[Heuristic]

Originally Posted by Breadman03

Transferring the fish is based on the shortest time it takes for the ich to drop off, encyst, then hatch and reinfect the fish, combined with the maximum time the parasite stays on the fish. That is why we transfer the fish after no more than 72 hours in a tank. That is the least amount of time for the parasite to drop off, then reinfect.

The 14 day minimum process is because we know that no parasites will remain in the fish from the beginning of the process, and we have transferred the fish before any new parasites could attach.

Ich can stay encysted on a surface for up to 72 days, so chaeto could have a parasite encysted on it for up to 72 days after it was removed from an infected system.

Couldn't you just Jack up the temperature to the point that the cyst dies while not killing the chaeto? I'm assuming the algae can take a much higher temp.

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[Breadman03]

Originally Posted by Heuristic

Couldn't you just Jack up the temperature to the point that the cyst dies while not killing the chaeto? I'm assuming the algae can take a much higher temp.

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I know heat has an impact on the lifecycle, but I'm not sure of the survivable extremes for the ich or the chaeto.

[Heuristic]

Originally Posted by Breadman03

I know heat has an impact on the lifecycle, but I'm not sure of the survivable extremes for the ich or the chaeto.

Ya, I was going to pick some up from a LFS, but I'm not entirely sure how much I trust any of them to not just give my (72 is Monday) fallowed Ich again. I know the surefire bet would be to just let it sit for another 72 days by itself, but since it's an algae I figured there would be an aggressive method that make sure it's not on there without killing the algae.

If you dip your corals and there's a cyst on the plate, will it survive the dip and just end up in your tank anyways?

[tmz]

It's possible to bring in ich with anything wet but unlikely the cysts will settle on coral tissue or algae as far as I know but they might . Usually the corals procured from commercial vendors have little exposure to fish during the chain of custody . Coral dips may or may not harm an encysted parasite, the "shell" tends to protect them.Treatments even as strong as copper are geared to kill free swimming parasites not those that are encysted. A single cyst can produce upwards of 100 parasites,btw.

[EddieJ]

"The time required for theront development varies. In one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), theronts emerged from a group of tomonts sometime between 3 and 72 days, with most released from 4 to 8 days after tomont formation. In another study (Diggles and Lester 1996c ), tomite development and theront release occurred, on average, between 5 and 12.1 days after tomont formation, depending upon strain and temperature. There was no correlation between tomont size and theront release. Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) observed, in laboratory studies, that theronts were released only between the hours of 2:00 am and 9:00 am, even in total darkness; some suggest this strategy increases the chance for theronts to find a host, as many fish may be resting or closer to substrate during this time period. "

Ok, we go by the 72-76 day rule of leaving a tank fallow or for invert QT. Has anybody actually read and seen the numbers from the Colorni and Burgess 1997 study? I found it, but it was 40 bucks to download in PDF form. What do the numbers actually look like? how many tomonts in a group were under observation? as you can see two studies (Yashinaga and Dickerson 1994) put the majority of theront release at 3-12 days. I wonder what the numbers actually look like, such as 1 out of a 250 tomonts waited 72 days for release, which would put that as a statistical anomaly. How many times was this observed over how many groups? What I am getting at, if the 72 days is such an anomaly, who is to say that tomonts can't go 81 days? Does going fallow 72 days really increase your odds for success over let's say 40 days? Were as lets say, 98 percent released in 36 days? Just thinking out loud here guys...I am by no means an statistical mathematician..

[tmz]

Thanks for the information from the studies. I read sumaries of the Collini and Burgess study years ago and recall the others noted ;don't have the numbers you wan't. I do recall that the 72 day tomont viability was at low temps around 60 F.

I have no idea how to measure the probability of tomont viability for say 40 days vs 72 days or 81 days or anything other duration . Obviously , longer is potentially safer or at worst neutral but the question as to whether the extended fishless time is worth the risk avoidance payback doesn't seem to have a clear answer. 72 days has been the generally accepted standard ,anecdotally supported ; though less time might do just as well in many cases.

Complicating it all is the parasite's ability to mutate generationally with new genernations every few weeks most notably resulting in strains resistant to hypo salinity for example.

[EddieJ]

I have used TTM religiously and have had great success with it. Now I am setting up a 40 gallon breeder as a Frag tank/coral qt/invert qt. Since I am a huge proponent of every fish goes thru TTM and then at least 20 days in QT after TTM for observation, it's time to put corals/inverts thru QT for my new build. Was just throwing those numbers thru my head and was trying to figure out if lets day 40 days actually puts you at 99 percent success rate, and the additional 32 days just gains you that one percent success. Or does it actually stay at 99 percent from 40days to lets say 90 days.. I know the law of diminishing returns comes into play at some point.

[tmz]

A qt tank for corals is a good move. Aside from ich, plenty of pests like tegastes/redbugs acro eating flatworms can get in with new stock even if you dip. Should that occur the qt gives specimens in your main system a degree of protection beyond dips ;treatment in qt is usually easier too.

[Heuristic]

So if you are adding Chaeto/Coral, shouldn't the TTM method also work for them as well? Seems like between dipping them and TTM you should be at very low risk of every introducing something you didn't want to in to your tank

[btb72]

Ttm wouldn't work because it would already be in the cyst form so you would need the fallow period

[_Mackus_]

How much risk is it to cut the tank transfer method short a couple days? Only 9 or 10 days of total time instead of the 12?

I'm currently on Day 3 of TTM of a foxface and midas blenny. I intended to do the full normal TTM process (plus Prazi treatment) with next Monday being my Day 12 when I am complete and add the fish to my display. However, I now am unexpectedly going to have to leave town next weekend. I don't think I can get a fish-sitter with the competency to cover the last few days of TTM for me.

So how much risk would I be adding by completing after 9 days (3 72-hour transfers) and moving the fish to my display before leaving for the weekend? Am I better off adding the fish to my display after 9 days, or doing the last TTM on day 9 and then hoping those 2 fish are ok for 3-days without anyone around to feed them or add Prime to the water (I don't typically use any filtration)?

[sensei]

you should complete the 4 TTM and then 4 weeks of observation before moving them to dt. remember that velvet and other diseases are not cured with TTM, thus observation is to be sure they are disease free.
I do not use any filtration when doing TTM, I use prime on 2nd and 3rd day.
I woudl say you are better of using prime on you 4th TTM and feed them a lot on the last day of your 3rd transffer
good luck

[chaaban]

Is it ok to use a net? I read it’s better not to, but is it ok? Also how important is it to have the 2 tanks in separate room?

[Louis Z]

Caution about the net that you don’t use it on your established tanks. Watch for all cross contamination. I do use a net on transfer but the first stop is in a FW dip with net . Active dinospores and flukes tend not to make it past the Fresh water dip . I do use my hand on angels . Their cheek spines and fins get caught in the net and I find it less stressful when I handle them vs net

[lagatbezan]

Originally Posted by chaaban

Is it ok to use a net? I read it’s better not to, but is it ok? Also how important is it to have the 2 tanks in separate room?

Get a square colander from walmart or kmart. They are only a few dollars and works great and less likely to cause harm to the fish like Louis mentioned above. Can also get a clear specimen container like the ones they use at the LFS.
The two tanks should be at least 10' away from each other to prevent cross contamination: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2423604

[chaaban]

I know it’s 72 hours per transfer for a total of 4 transfer equaling 12 days total. I know it’s ok to do less than 72 hours, but never more. My question is, if I do 71 hours to be extra sure I’m not exceeding the 72 hour mark, will I have to make up for the lost hour which will equal out to 4 total hours at the end of the 12 days?

I’m sure I’m over thinking it but wanted to be sure.