Protein Skimmer

[Fishguy13]

I was just woundering if a seahorse tank needs a protein skimmer if i only want to keep macro

[pledosophy]

It does not need one.

Some people warn against them because research has shown that protein skimmers increase the rate at which seahorses contract GBD is they are already predisposed to it.

I didn't run a skimmer for years, but added one after I added a bunch of corals.

[lfduty]

NO NO NO dont do it.

[km133688]

lfduty, can you provide a little more behind your reasoning for not having a skimmer that just NONONO. I am about to put one on my reef in which I also keep 4 KUDA. If this is such a huge mistake I'd like to understand why as quite frankly your comment though appreciated is not helping me to make a decision.

Thanks, Kevin

[RichConley]

Originally posted by pledosophy
It does not need one.

Some people warn against them because research has shown that protein skimmers increase the rate at which seahorses contract GBD is they are already predisposed to it.

I didn't run a skimmer for years, but added one after I added a bunch of corals.

I'd like ot see the research mentioned. Theres a lot that goes on with seahorse people where someone says something that isnt neccessarily true, and then suddenly it is fact (not that its any better in the rest of the hobby.)


I seriously doubt skimming has any affect on GBD. If anything, I could think of a bunch of reasons it would make it better.

[pledosophy]

Originally posted by RichConley
I'd like ot see the research mentioned.

I seriously doubt skimming has any affect on GBD. If anything, I could think of a bunch of reasons it would make it better.

Please list your reasons why it would make it better? What is the basis of your doubts?

I agree you will read alot of funny things on this forum that I disagree with, but the problems with skimmers and seahorses has been well documented, on both sides of the fence.

I think skimmers are great in sumps in tanks that aren't heavily planted, but would not advise keeping a skimmer directly connected to a system.

For the tank mentioned in this thread I would not suggest a skimmer at all since Fishguy has said that he wants to keep macro algae and protein skimmers would directly compete with the macro for nutrients slowing it's growth.

Also IMO traditional skimmers remove to many things I want to keep in my system, unless you are using a GAFF skimmer, but that is not widely embraced by many hobbyists.

Unfortunatley the Gas Bubble Disease Survey that has been conducted over the best few years since the start of the Gas Bubble disease Project in 2003, has not been released just yet.

The survey will at least give us a wider base of understanding. Unfortunatley since seahorses are not considered an edible fish, the money for proper research into there chemistry and care requirements lies mostly on the backs of hobbyists and breeders.

While I will admitt that none of the links I am going to give you will completely meet the scientific requirements for a controlled group and proof through repition, at some point ancedotal evidence from a significant number of keepers can proove to be useful in determining facts.

Please excuse Anne's spelling and grammer her native langauge is French.

Nov 26 2003, 06:54 PM
Joined: 26-November 03
From: Fontainebleau, France
Member No.: 2,318

I am Anne. I do a degree on aquaculture and I am interested by seahorses. I do some work experience in two public aquarium. I start my master degree next year.


I do actually an experiment with the skimmer. I want to know if the skimmer give the gas bubble disease.

On the 1 November I place two reidi males in a tank without a skimmer, for more 2 weeks to become stable.

Description of the tank;
120L
internal filter
live sand and live rock
artificial tree, made off ceramic for hitching
light on 12 hours and off 12 hours

Parameter of the tank;
22 degree celcus
oxygen 85% saturation
gravity 35ppt
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 10
phosphate 0

ON 20th November, I change nothing in the reidi's tank, I put just the skimmer. I check the seahorses, no bubbles on the tails, no bubbles in the pouch,so no diseases.

The manufacture of the skimmer is aquarium system, it`s a centrifuge type, which it provide the air before the impeller.

On the 21 November, one of the males has pouch bloat, I release the air and replace in the tank.

On the 25 November, the second male have three air bubbles in his tail.

They are an external air bubbles;
1 big bubble on a bottom of his tail and 2 small bubbles on a top of his tail on a middle and on a right. The seahorse looks to have inflate trunk and belly.
He swim with the tail on the top.

Parameters of the tank measure now;
22 degree celcus
oxygen 85% saturation - same color with skimmer
gravity 35ppt
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 10
phosphate 0

Also, to contineu the experiment I remove the skimmer to see if the bubble goes without any medicine traetment. I report on this result in one week.

SEE YOU LATER FOR NEWS!

For other info you could always visit the Gas Bubble Disease Project forum at seahorse.org. Or the Emergency forum and follow the posts. There are many examples and reasonings there on both sides of the topic.

Ancedotal evidence from people who report the problem over the last few years has been substantial enough for me to warn people against using a skimmer in a seahorse tank, especially if the seahorses are predisposed to gas bubble disease.

It is very fair to say that many people do use skimmers directly on there horses and never have any problems. I tend to give more conservative advice to keepers to help them avoid any problems. The advice given in this thread was directed at the situation that this keepers tank falls under. If the situation were different the advice might be different as well.

From what I have read of Labdoc's recent posts this is my understanding.

The exact triggers of Gas Bubble Disease are still unclear. It does not appear to be just high CO2 counts. To date I have not read of a study where a microprobe has been used to identify the makeup of the gas contained in the bubbles. If the entire problem was created by CO2 alone it should be fixed by increase aeration 100% of the time, which it is not, and the recommended treatment for Diamox should not work as well as it does.

It is possible that the PH of the blood of the seahorses ahs changes and the horses are suffereing from acidosis which will effect respiration, CO2 exchange rates, and cause kidney and gill disease.

There is an enzyme carbonic anhydrase that regulates the amount of CO2 in the tissues and the blood. It is unclear whether the high CO2 causes the problem or whether the off balance chemical reaction regulated by the enzyme causes the high CO2.

There does not seem to be just one cause for the disorder. It appears to have multiple triggers with the same out comes. Until science can better identify and determin these triggers the best we can do as hobbyists IMO is to take the wide spectrum approach in avoiding problems. It is always possible to setup a tank with a skimmer and then remove the skimmer if frequent outbreaks of GBD occur.

It is also intriguiging that in some cases every seahorse in the tank presents symptoms while in other tanks only one speciment shows problems with GBD. The reason for this seems to be different genetic makeups. It is possible for variations in genetic predisposition to occur with some speciments having hypo or hyperactive enzymes that will result in symptoms. This may be the most significant key as to what makes a seahorse prediposed to GBD or not.

Kevin

[RichConley]

Kevin, I highly doubt different genetic makeups is the reason for some horses showing symptoms, and sometimes all of them showing symptoms. Like you said, more htan one cause, same outcome. So it seems to me, in the cases where all the horses get it, its a system wide issue, whereas in the case of 1 horse in a tank getting it, it could just be an injury.

I was under the impression that GBD was caused by bacterial infection. Skimmers will remove bacteria from the water column, and will generally keep the amount of waste in your water to a minimum, both of which would lower the chance of bacterial infection. I think a lot of the problems people have with horses is due to how dirty most of the seahorse tanks I see are.

[lfduty]

I told you no to the skimmer and got to thinking about it I dont even know your tank or what you have in it.
I dont have one on my tank but i have plants in it that need the pretein and if all you have is pips and seahorses in it thay will not make enuff wast for your plants naw on my big tank i do have a protein skimmer on it but my reef tank dumps into the seahorses and thin over in to a 55gl sump and thin back up to the reef. I will try to post my tanks the post will be named REEF & SEAHORSES AND SUMP. if you want to see it.

[RichConley]

pledosophy, you sound like you know what you're talking about.

I went and looked at the GBD forum on seahorse.org, and there are a lot of incorrect scientific assumptions going on there. I have a hard time taking much of seahorse.org seriously. Theres just so much misinformation. (related to this, and just in general.) People seem to see one anectdotal thing, and assume causation. Correlation without causation is very common.

A lot of the symptoms for it sound like mycobacterium infection to me.

[greenighs]

I know, I have a hard time with the data, myself, but I'm not a scientist. I've been told that running a skimmer directly on a seahorse tank increases the chances of GBD for seahorses that are predisposed to GBD, but nobody can give me a set of criteria for determining what constitutes this predisposition. However, for those people whose horses exhibit symtoms of GBD whenever a skimmer is used and observe these symptoms disappear when the skimmer is removed, they don't need any more proof to convince them not to skim.

The best we can do is report what we've observed, I suppose.

Also, I think it's unfair of you to paint all of seahorse.org's information with the brush of inaccuracy. Members of all experience levels post there, just as on all other hobbyist sites.

[pledosophy]

Clare,

I will explain the best I can, but Marty would be the best source here as all I will really be doing is restating what he has shared with me (and the rest of the board).

Seahorses have enzymes that are supposed to operate at a set rate. If the enzyme operates to fast, or to slow, it will cause a build up of CO2 gas, which then presents itself as GBD. A seahorse that is predisposed to GBD is one who's enzyme regulates at the wrong pace.

The enyme is called carbonic anhydrase.

Marty is not sure yet if the high level of CO2 causes the enzyme to malfunction, or the high level of CO2 is the cause of the enzyme malfunctioning. Or both in different cases.

Also the predisposition seems to be genetic and carry vary from batches of fry from the same parents.

Also there is a thing called a microprobe which will identify all of the chemicals in the bubble. Kinda of like a gas chromagraph would to a solid substance (Sorry Jefferey Deaver Lincoln Rythme Fan.). When someone has the money to use a microprobe on a gas bubble we will have a much better idea of all of the gases in the bubble, so it will be easier to determin the cause.

Marty thinks for good reason I believe that it is more then just CO2 in the bubble.

Does that make sense?

Rich,

I think much of the misunderstanding you have about GBD is stemming from the idea that it is bacterial. It is most certainly 100% not bacterial.

It does not mimick any bacteria behavior.

There are no reported cases of it being observed in the ocean. It is only something that is observed in aquariums under 4' tall so it has to be part of our setups that is causing it.

Moving a seahorse to a different environment can completely cure the problem, this would not be true if it were bacterial.

GBD does not respond to antibiotics. It is treated with a drug called Diamox which is prescribed to humans to control fluid secretion levels.

GBD in no way mimicks any type of bacteria infection in seahorses that I have ever seen except that if it is untreated it can cause death. (IMO appetite is only affected by the inability to catch the food, if food is available the seahorse will eat)

GBD is most certainly a disorder in where a seahorse has a problem regulating it's CO2 retention on a cellular level.

Myco presents itself completely differently. Not even similiar IMO. I cannot see how the two could be confused.

I do agree with you that many seahorse diseases come from dirty tanks and bad conditions, but IMHO and IME most of these bad conditions are temperature related. Protein skimmers are great at removing a lot of things from the water, but the fact that they remove bacteria does little for the tank IMO. The tank is going to be full of bacteria no matter what. Infact if they removed all of the bacteria, the seahorses would die. Protein skimmers are great in sumps, like I said in my first post in this thread, I use one. Truthfully since I started using it my macro has suffered.

I have a hard time taking much of seahorse.org seriously. Theres just so much misinformation. (related to this, and just in general.) People seem to see one anectdotal thing, and assume causation. Correlation without causation is very common.

Comments like this are going to get you in a lot of trouble with many people. It should be known to you that my first name is Kevin, and I am a mod on seahorse.org.

Writing an entire site off do to misinformation or poor understandings of certain members is short sighted IMO. If all people who read bad info did this, then anyone who has read any of your posts in this thread would have written off RC. Reefcentral is great site with tons of useful information. Why should Fenner or Shimek be disrespected because you had a misunderstanding about what GBD is? They do not deserve that. ( I sited those two because I have a tremendous amount of respect for them both, just want to be clear. Couldn't think of two finer people who deserve absolute respect. )

Seahorse.org is the same way. There are over 5000 members, but very few great minds. You should know so of the leading and most respected authorities in the world post there . If I know anything, it is only because they took the time to share there thoughts with me and provide me some direction. With members like Dr Martin Belli (Labdoc), Keith Gentry (KG), Marc Lamont (Marc), Diane Baxter (DianeB), Dr Lisa (LisaD), and Dan Underwood (DanU) to name a few, I really feel honored to be a part of that group. I have nothing but the deepest respect for them (both in there knowledge and as people) and can't let a comment like that just float by.

I hope you don't think I am coming down to hard, but realize you just insulted a group of people I hold very dear to my heart.

[pledosophy]

Fishguy,

I am really sorry to have hi jacked your thread like this. I hope you got a realy complete anwser to your question.

Let me make it up to you. PM me your address and I'll send you a few species of macro algae for free. For real.

IMO you should not get a skimmer, it will make the macro's grow slower and is more of a risk then it is worth.

[greenighs]

There ya go! That explained the predispostion issue that I've been wondering about forever. Like i said, the people who see the symptoms go away when they take off the skimmer will tell ya not to use a skimmer ... they must people who have the horses with the enzyme problem. Now I understand.

[Fishguy13]

This is the most replys i ever got thanks for all the info and no more fighting ladies

[km133688]

lfduty, thanks for the reply. This is an interesting thread. I may still put a skimmer on my seahorse/reef tank but I already have one horse with GBD on his tail. He seems to have learned to live with it as a handicap of sorts. No more swimming upside down of fighting the current. He looks to be swimming and eating like the other horses but I can tell he has learned how to manipuliate the bubbles on his tail to swim. Not the best of circumstances, causes him some trouble in mating, but I won't subject him to medication treatments if this is all the problem it poses to him. I will watch carfully after I put the skimmer on.

Thanks, Kevin (hey, looks like there are two Kevins in this thread woohoo!).

[Fishguy13]

Wouldnt a protein skimmer get me good water quality? Thats what a skimmer does and seahorses are fish and they also POOP

[pledosophy]

IMO there are much better ways to get good waqter quality. If you have the money to buy a good skimmer it would be better used in one of these areas.

1. A seperate refugium would be fantastic. I understand sometimes it is a space issue, but I had to throw this in here. There are some great experts in the industry like Leng Sy who are running full blown SPS tanks, without the use of a skimmer, by setting up refugiums.

A refugium will increase your overall volume of water, provide a place for nice critter to grow (like amphipods, copepods, shrimps, snails,etc), provide a stabalizing factor to your PH as it can be lit inversly of the display, and give you more space to grow more macro algaes (whose growth uses phosphates, nitrates, and even some metals).

Also if your determined to get a skimmer, then you could place the skimmer in the refugiums so it does not empty directly into your display, lessening any risk associated with the equipment. I have found I do not like to run a skimmer even in my seperate refugium because it limits the growth of the macro alages. JME

I guess I should note that Leng is working on a Gaff skimmer that uses CO2 cartridges so the skimmer will only remove non organic matter, but it is not availbale yet. Since C02 levels are the highest concern in relation to skimmers and seahorses I do not know if it would be wise to use a skimmer that directly injects CO2 into your water, time will tell after it hitsw the market.

2. You could buy a larger filter, perhaps a cannister and add a UV sterilizer to it. If you wanted to go really crazy you could buy a large cannister just for the filtration aspect, and then a smaller cannister to run inline with the UV so you could run the UV at the appropriate flow to kill parasites as well, but that is getting a little to crazy with it. Wouldn't want you to turn out like me and have 2 cannisters.

3. You could do more water changes. Ya there a PITA sometimes, but on a 20g not so much. I change 20 - 30g's a week on my system, even with all of my equipment (I'm obsessed and the water is free to me). I designed my system so it has a "WC valve" and a hose that connects. The hardest part of WC's for me is carrying the damm jugs from the car and up the stairs.

Good Luck.

[Puffer Queen]

Great explanation Kevin!

Marty would be proud!

For those of you who do not know Marty (Labdoc) - he is a pathologist who has been performing necropsies on hobbyists' seahorses (no charge) for several years, giving feedback (cause of death) to the hobbyist and has been compiling data. He presented some of the data at IMAC in 2005. I found that to be one of the most informative lectures I have attended in my many years of attending conferences.

I run my seahorse systems without skimmers but also do weekly water changes.

[RichConley]

pledosophy, most of my issues with seahorse.org stem from their "articles"

Read through them, and look for innacuracies. There are TONS. At one point Seahorse.org repeatedly reccomend that gaskets for bulkheads should be put on the same side as the nut. THAT IS WRONG, and every newbie who tries it is going to have water on the floor.

Its like a newspaper with frequent spelling mistakes. If they can't catch that, what makes you think theyre checking their research.

[RichConley]

You guys seem to think that CO2 levels are raised by a skimmer. I have a hard time believing that this is true.
I was keeping a pair of reidi in the sump of my reef tank for almost a year. They were in the same compartment as a needlewheel skimmer rated for 400gallons. If skimmers caused this, they would have had it.


My point about protien skimmers is that they keep your water cleaner. When waste rots, it produces large amounts of CO2. If CO2 is the issue, skimmers should HELP by taking out waste before it can decompose..

[greenighs]

Originally posted by RichConley
pledosophy, most of my issues with seahorse.org stem from their "articles"

Read through them, and look for innacuracies. There are TONS. At one point Seahorse.org repeatedly reccomend that gaskets for bulkheads should be put on the same side as the nut. THAT IS WRONG, and every newbie who tries it is going to have water on the floor.

Its like a newspaper with frequent spelling mistakes. If they can't catch that, what makes you think theyre checking their research.

So, I take it you've notified the staff of seahorse.org about these inaccuracies and they've rebuked you? Or did you just think it was more appropriate to go to other boards to make your criticisms known?

[RichConley]

No greenighs, I probably should have, but I just stopped using the site instead.

The thing is with this, we're seeing a whole lot of examples of things, with extremely small sample sizes, and people jumping to conclusions. I want real evidence.

If protiens skimmers are why, I want a detailed description of the mechanism thats causing it, not "oh, it happend in my tank, so it must be because of that. Its certainly not because my husbandry is bad. Look how cute they are."

Theres already entirely too much false information spouted in this hobby, and I think a lot of the seahorse stuff is worse than in other parts of the hobby. Theres never any controls used, never any alternative thought. People just start out with an idea, and try to prove it, even if it means coming up with some cochamamy scheme to explain it.

Could it maybe be that GBD is a stress responce, as lateral line errosion seems to be in tangs? That would explain why adding a skimmer to a previously unskimmed tank would cause it: A rapid change in dissolved organics in the water column, and a large vibrating pump in the tank.

Its nice that people are trying, but the methods and conclusions theyre coming to are in no means scientific, and may be doing more damage than good.

[pledosophy]

P Queenie,

Thanks a lot. That means something coming from you. Marty is one great guy. I'm glad to know him.

Rich Conley,

Dude your killing me.

In the posts above, I have stated several different times, that protein skimmers will not cause problems with every seahorse. Even took the time to outline the problem down to a specific enzyme behavior. Gave examples and reasons why different seahorses react differently.

How much more of an explanation do you need then what was given?

Last week you had it confuses with a bacterial infection and now you are making more assumptions as to the cause of it based on nothing more then your speculation, at the same time condeming the people who actually do the research.

The only person who seems to be making up "cochamamy schemes" to prove there theories in this thread is you.

Originally posted by RichConley


Its like a newspaper with frequent spelling mistakes. If they can't catch that, what makes you think theyre checking their research.

Originally posted by RichConley

My point about protien skimmers

Spelled Protein. Little pot calling the kettle black there.

[lfduty]

It all comes down to this what works for me or you wont all ways work for uthers. if you dont trust a skimmer than dont get one or vot on it. a lot of people can tell you things and not 1 of thim will be rite for your tank all you can do is try thim and play with thim and take the one that works for you the best thats what i do.
When i go to Instal a tank in some ones house i do it the same way i do mine and 9 timesout of 10 when some thing gos bad with ther tank some one has been playing with something on it like the Skimmer-heater or the regulator on the calcium reactor I tell all my men not to try and change the way i do a seet up. ther way may be good for thim bot may not be so good for me..

[TamiW]

A few years back, I mailed as many public aquariums as I could find that had seahorses with a survey about their experiences with gas bubble disease and their feelings on the matter. I meant to do something with the information; though I never got very far.

Anyway, I had six aquariums respond with experience with GBD. In no case was a skimmer implicated in the cause of gas bubble disease. Either they had them and we able to cure without the removal of a skimmer, or adding them helped fix the problem. In one case, oxygen suerpsaturation was indead the cause but this was by some other mechanism.

Anyway, in all cases, improving the water quality and the seahorse system in general seemed to be the answer. In at least once case (I think more) antibiotics were used as a precautionary measure.

There really are too few to make a firm conclusion from the information, but I think most information coming out of the public aquarium system does not support skimmers as being the cause of gas bubble disease. Maybe someday I'll find the time to survey some more aquariums and do an essay on case studies relating to this information.

I do not disagree that whatever works for you is the right answer. Unfortunately, with the number of seahorse people being afraid of skimmers is frightening - since many do not have adequite alternative nutrient export systems. With waste producers like seahorses, small water changes are not going to keep up with the waste being produced.