Some serious sump help! (PICS)

[Jgisler]

Hello all,

I have recently put together my first DIY sump for my 55 gallon. I had everything prepped a few years ago and now I have finally had the time to put this thing into action! Do not judge on the light in the pic as I am only using it for cycling. I also included pics of my plumbing to better explain my system.

I had my tank drilled and my sump (a 10 gallon due to size limitations) baffled at the LFS a few years ago as well. I have plumbed everything including a 1-1/2" intake and a 3/4" return. There are no leaks however I am having a huge amount of water loss probably due to evaporation and a ton of micro bubbles! I have posted some photos to show my set up. I am working with a Rio1700 submersible pump and no bubble trap in my sump. I am concerned about the evaporation occurring so rapidly in the return section of my pump as I often leave for days at a time on work trips. I am deathly afraid of ruining the pump by having it run too dry.

Any and all advice on micro bubble solutions as they look terrible in the DT! Advice on how to ATO or fix the water loss in the return section would be greatly appreciated! The water level drops so fast!

Thank you,
Jake

[Reefer54]

Can you afford to put more water in your sump, raise the level in the return section a little..... ATO is the only other way and are easily implemented, even just a gravity feed with float switches will do. I cannot stand filling my tank up every day, so after my first tank almost 10 years ago, i have used ato ever since. i now go a week in the winter and sometimes 10 days in the summer without having to lift a finger, aside from filter socks and skimmer cup. It is worth it's weight in gold.

as for the micro bubbles.....if you empty the sump, you could add another baffle in front of the only baffle separating the return chamber, which would allow the bubbles to rise to the surface and not enter your display......but maybe someone else has a better idea....

i would even go so far as to suggest putting a diffuser like a black carbon foam pad in there which the water must pass through, but this is then going to have to be cleaned regularly or it will become a nitrate factory; but it would POSSIBLY be a simple solution.

[Gorgok]

You could turn the sump around... Make the return the larger section and the drain the small one. That and an ato would make it much more user friendly.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Jgisler

Hello all,

I have recently put together my first DIY sump for my 55 gallon. I had everything prepped a few years ago and now I have finally had the time to put this thing into action! Do not judge on the light in the pic as I am only using it for cycling. I also included pics of my plumbing to better explain my system.

I had my tank drilled and my sump (a 10 gallon due to size limitations) baffled at the LFS a few years ago as well. I have plumbed everything including a 1-1/2" intake and a 3/4" return. There are no leaks however I am having a huge amount of water loss probably due to evaporation and a ton of micro bubbles! I have posted some photos to show my set up. I am working with a Rio1700 submersible pump and no bubble trap in my sump. I am concerned about the evaporation occurring so rapidly in the return section of my pump as I often leave for days at a time on work trips. I am deathly afraid of ruining the pump by having it run too dry.

Any and all advice on micro bubble solutions as they look terrible in the DT! Advice on how to ATO or fix the water loss in the return section would be greatly appreciated! The water level drops so fast!

Thank you,
Jake

You can't fix the evaporation. It is what it is based on ambient conditions, but making the return section larger can help. You need to search out the latching circuit ato and get busy.

The bubbles are from your drain line. There is only one cure for that: reduce the flow rate till they go away. Putting in more junk to deal with it creates other problems.

Your sump is just way too small, but such is life with a 55, which is why they are rather poor marine tanks. A bubble trap may help, but you need to work on the drain system, angle it down, and lower the flow rate to < 350gph. That is counter productive as the flow should be up at 550gph at least, so it is time for a siphon system, which will eliminate the bubbles altogether. You said you had the tank drilled, which means it is not tempered? Converting to a siphon will require some more holes.

[Willistein]

I may be wrong, but is there salt creep around the bulkhead on the back of the 55? Could be a slow leak. I would agree that adding one more baffle in front of the first one would help. Water would go under it and bubbles would not (as much).

[spkennyva]

Yeah, a 10 gal on a 55 is going to be tricky. What's the water level in your sump with the system shutdown? If you have some extra capacity when shutdown, then raise the level in the return section, which will help with the micro bubbles. I suspect that you're getting bubbles from both the return and the water cascading over the singe baffle next to the pump's inlet. Can you face the pump inlet towards the outside of the sump?

[Jgisler]

Originally Posted by Reefer54

Can you afford to put more water in your sump, raise the level in the return section a little..... ATO is the only other way and are easily implemented, even just a gravity feed with float switches will do. I cannot stand filling my tank up every day, so after my first tank almost 10 years ago, i have used ato ever since. i now go a week in the winter and sometimes 10 days in the summer without having to lift a finger, aside from filter socks and skimmer cup. It is worth it's weight in gold.

as for the micro bubbles.....if you empty the sump, you could add another baffle in front of the only baffle separating the return chamber, which would allow the bubbles to rise to the surface and not enter your display......but maybe someone else has a better idea....

i would even go so far as to suggest putting a diffuser like a black carbon foam pad in there which the water must pass through, but this is then going to have to be cleaned regularly or it will become a nitrate factory; but it would POSSIBLY be a simple solution.

I think for the micro bubble issue in going to give the foam pad. A try versus adding another baffle and completely draining the sump. If the problem persists I think I'm going to have to add a bubble trap

[oblio]

Originally Posted by Gorgok

You could turn the sump around... Make the return the larger section and the drain the small one. That and an ato would make it much more user friendly.

I think this is your simplest solution to the bubbles, and while you have the sump out silicone in a simple bubble trap between the two sections. The combination of the trap, and now really increasing your pump area will probably fix your issue. Also by swapping the functions of the sections your pump volume goes way up, thus giving you much more time between fill ups. Although you truly need to invest in a ATO if your going to be gone long periods. With the volume of water going up and down, so is your salinity, so not good.

[Jgisler]

Originally Posted by oblio

I think this is your simplest solution to the bubbles, and while you have the sump out silicone in a simple bubble trap between the two sections. The combination of the trap, and now really increasing your pump area will probably fix your issue. Also by swapping the functions of the sections your pump volume goes way up, thus giving you much more time between fill ups. Although you truly need to invest in a ATO if your going to be gone long periods. With the volume of water going up and down, so is your salinity, so not good.

My only concern is room for the skimmer. I like the idea of swapping the sections but I feel that their won't be enough room for the filter sock and future skimmer in the smaller compartment.

[Jgisler]

Originally Posted by Gorgok

You could turn the sump around... Make the return the larger section and the drain the small one. That and an ato would make it much more user friendly.

I think this is the route I am going to go for the evaporation however I do not think there will be enough room to add a skimmer to the constant water level portion of the sump if I reverse it. There just won't be enough room with a filter sock and I think the skimmer has to have a constant water line right?

[Jgisler]

Originally Posted by spkennyva

Yeah, a 10 gal on a 55 is going to be tricky. What's the water level in your sump with the system shutdown? If you have some extra capacity when shutdown, then raise the level in the return section, which will help with the micro bubbles. I suspect that you're getting bubbles from both the return and the water cascading over the singe baffle next to the pump's inlet. Can you face the pump inlet towards the outside of the sump?

There just simply isn't enough room :/ I wish I could have purchased an extra tall and narrow 20 gallon haha. I guess I could of had one made really deep somewhere online.

[Jgisler]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

You can't fix the evaporation. It is what it is based on ambient conditions, but making the return section larger can help. You need to search out the latching circuit ato and get busy.

The bubbles are from your drain line. There is only one cure for that: reduce the flow rate till they go away. Putting in more junk to deal with it creates other problems.

Your sump is just way too small, but such is life with a 55, which is why they are rather poor marine tanks. A bubble trap may help, but you need to work on the drain system, angle it down, and lower the flow rate to < 350gph. That is counter productive as the flow should be up at 550gph at least, so it is time for a siphon system, which will eliminate the bubbles altogether. You said you had the tank drilled, which means it is not tempered? Converting to a siphon will require some more holes.

I was looking into reducing the flow rate by using the ball valve in my return line. This helped a little bit when I messed with it but it was still not enough to rid the bubbles from the DT. I also read that the back pressure, resulting from the use of the ball valve, can reduce the lifespan of the pump. Is this true? Also, do you suggest flipping the sump around to allow for more volume of water in the return section?

[Jgisler]

Originally Posted by Willistein

I may be wrong, but is there salt creep around the bulkhead on the back of the 55? Could be a slow leak. I would agree that adding one more baffle in front of the first one would help. Water would go under it and bubbles would not (as much).

I had a slight leak from the bulkhead that resulted in the paint coming up. I ended up sealing this with superglue as it was about a drop of water every 24 hours. Either the super glue or the salt fixed it. Now I just need to repaint

[Jgisler]

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE HELP! I really appreciate getting all of these suggestions even though I am a newer member. You have all been super helpful.

[Willistein]

Good deal. I mentioned it because I had a similar leak on a bulkhead on my new frag tank set up. With a slow enough leak, all you see is the salt creep.

[Jgisler]

Originally Posted by Willistein

Good deal. I mentioned it because I had a similar leak on a bulkhead on my new frag tank set up. With a slow enough leak, all you see is the salt creep.

What did you end up doing to fix it?

[Gorgok]

Originally Posted by Jgisler

I think this is the route I am going to go for the evaporation however I do not think there will be enough room to add a skimmer to the constant water level portion of the sump if I reverse it. There just won't be enough room with a filter sock and I think the skimmer has to have a constant water line right?

The sock would fit, but a skimmer most likely wouldn't. But i didn't see one as is so assumed that wouldn't be an issue. You could instead use a HOB skimmer, intake in the small section, or an external skimmer if you have room. Not sure if you have any extra room though or you would have gotten a larger sump.

The sock isn't all that necessary, but i do like having the ability to use one on occasion.

[Jgisler]

Originally Posted by Gorgok

The sock would fit, but a skimmer most likely wouldn't. But i didn't see one as is so assumed that wouldn't be an issue. You could instead use a HOB skimmer, intake in the small section, or an external skimmer if you have room. Not sure if you have any extra room though or you would have gotten a larger sump.

The sock isn't all that necessary, but i do like having the ability to use one on occasion.

Would you suggest another form of mechanical filtration or do you go without? I think I will flip the sump around as a fix to the evaporation issue. I will also try a foam carbon pad as well as place the pump on the far end of the new larger return section to allow more space between the drain and the pump. I'll keep you guys updated! Thanks again

[Jgisler]

If I were to add a bubble trap while my sump is out, how could I do this while only adding one more baffle? Doesn't a trap usually consist of 3?

[Willistein]

Originally Posted by Jgisler

What did you end up doing to fix it?

Well, I noticed it last night, so I'm not sure it's fixed yet. I just tightened the bulkhead nut a quarter turn. I had only had it barely hand tight, so now it's a little past hand tight. These light duty bulkheads break pretty easily.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Jgisler

I was looking into reducing the flow rate by using the ball valve in my return line. This helped a little bit when I messed with it but it was still not enough to rid the bubbles from the DT. I also read that the back pressure, resulting from the use of the ball valve, can reduce the lifespan of the pump. Is this true? Also, do you suggest flipping the sump around to allow for more volume of water in the return section?

Depends on the pump, but *most* handle the restriction in the return line well, and since it is not doing as much work, the "watts" consumed lowers.

Yes you need enough volume in the return section to allow for a few days evaporation in case your ATO fails when you are not around. Since many hobby implementations are superfluous, rather than redundant, an ato failure could lead to pump failure, if the pump runs dry. Whatever it takes to accomplish that, and in small sumps, it usually means eliminating the "fuge."

The bubbles (which appear to me to be universally throughout the sump) are coming from the drain line. Obviously the sock is of little use, and most higher end systems eliminate them. Dealing with the bubbles starts with the drain line, not any where else: deal with the source. It is much like the common cold. There are so many home remedies, lots of talk, and a great deal of money to be made, concerning treating the symptoms. Yet no one bothers to find a cure for the disease...

The two things that will prevent bubbles from the drain line, with open channels, (Durso, Stockman, Gurgle Busters,) DIY PVC overflows, and just about anything that is commercially produced, is to increase the pipe size, and reduce the flow rate. Submerging the end of the drain line in the sump, can also help eliminate bubbles, by eliminating the splashing of turbulent water flow in the sump.

Using foam blocks is not a logical thing to do. It adds to the maintenance of the system for one, and two: it contributes to the "nitrate problems" because it is mechanical filtration. A carbon block, because it will mechanically filter the water as well, will need to be changed more often that one would like. Socks should be changed out every day, foam blacks are the same.

Bubble traps can help. But if you have a very dense bubble problem, the spacing needs to be rather wide, to slow the water velocity through the trap. In small sumps, this eats up room. It is better to stop them at the source, saving bubble traps for "occasional bubbles."

Keeping water fall heights from section to section < = 1", will also reduce bubbles in the sump.

Skimmers are another issue for bubbles. Generally however, if the skimmer is adjusted per instructions, rather than anecdote, bubbles are not a problem. Some skimmers are just junk and nothing seems to work out with them.

Other sources of bubbles: Air leaks in the plumbing. It may not leak water, but it will suck in air. Pump cavitation: which is not generally a problem with submersible pumps. But given the wide variety of "ways of doing things," I have seen it happen, fill the DT with bubbles, and destroy pumps.

Sump size: sumps should be short and wide, not tall and narrow. It is the same with DTs.

[Jgisler]

A quick update! Last night I switched the pump section around and that greatly helped reduce the micro bubbles and evaporation issue. Funny how that was such a simple fix! Thank you guys.

I did however cause both of my bulkheads to start leaking. This messed up the paint on the back, but after a simple twist I think we are water-tight. I'm working with an older aquarium that I have water tested but I have a huge fear that another random leak will pop up.

I read about a siphon occurring in the drain portion of the system that could potentially clog the water flow. Does anyone know how common this is? I currently don't have a "basket" on the bulkhead yet and have noticed that the water is burping a bit before falling through. Is this normal?

[itworks]

Hi OP, just wanted to post that a 10 gallon sump can work with baffles (due to previous skimmer making lots of micro-bubbles). The skimmer now is a SWC 120 which makes practically no bubbles. This is used on a 28 gallon bow-front and a bean animal overflow. Return pump is a Jebao DC3000. I am using a gravity fed ATO, you can probably make out the float valve in the middle section, where the light is mounted to. I use a 5 gallon jug of RODI for the ATO which is good for about 4 days worth of evaporation, as the tank is also open-top.

With return pump off, the sump fills up to below the trim, thanks to a siphon break on the return lines.