Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[reefmutt]

N: about 35
P: about .2
I'm dosing 16 drops AF iodine and Flourine on Wednesday and Saturday.. so lower than recommended.. at the moment.

[codydemmel4]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

N: about 35
P: about .2
I'm dosing 16 drops AF iodine and Flourine on Wednesday and Saturday.. so lower than recommended.. at the moment.

looks like those high nutrients are working for you though!

Oh okay so you are using aqua forest, any reason for that over lugols?

[reefmutt]

Well, no not really.. I wouldn't say they are working for me. I'd say they are working against me. They are not killing the corals or completely browning them out like so many fear will happen to their corals with high nutrients, but I feel they are inhibiting general growth and maximum colour.
I'd like to get down to 10ish N and below .1 for P.. I may throw in some AF Biofil and or an unseeded brightwell brick..
I wouldn't use a seeded brick as I've heard reports of them rapidly dropping n. I don't want that I just want a slow natural lowering.
Eventually I'll probably start a low dose carbon source..
As for Iodine.. I just have the AF iodine on hand, so I'm using it. I've used lugols in the past and I think it is perfectly fine.

[watchguy123]

Colors are great. Hard to understand nutrient levels as well as supplements. Separating fact from fiction is both confusing and challenging. Sharing your efforts helps us all, thank you

[reefmutt]

Thanks, Mark.. it's almost as if the higher nutrients go, the greater the need the corals have for supplements..
confusing to say the least!

[shih87]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Thanks, Mark.. it's almost as if the higher nutrients go, the greater the need the corals have for supplements..
confusing to say the least!

A interested statement or observation, worth to dig deeper. I believe you are not alone here, but a bit more inputs may help a even stronger statement and some kind of learning for all of us.

[kevlow]

Originally Posted by shih87

A interested statement or observation, worth to dig deeper. I believe you are not alone here, but a bit more inputs may help a even stronger statement and some kind of learning for all of us.

I agree.
That statement is right at the edge of something important.

I think there is a tie between high nutrients with higher par that allows for increased growth rate and color without browning. [Low par with high nutrients only browns out SPS for me while high par and no nutrients produce tan acros] Without large amounts of Zooanthellae present the Acros depend on the supplements for health and well being. Especially since the light and high nutrients are driving growth.

Basically, sufficient light and high nutrients drive growth faster. Colorful acros have less Zooanthellae, therefore, depend on supplements to support the increased metabolism.

Sufficient light + High nutrients = increased metabolism = greater demand for supplements.

Am I on the right track?

[DiscusHeckel]

Originally Posted by kevlow

Hi
Basically, sufficient light and high nutrients drive growth faster. Colorful acros have less Zooanthellae, therefore, depend on supplements to support the increased metabolism.

Sufficient light + High nutrients = increased metabolism = greater demand for supplements.

Am I on the right track?

Hi,

I think increased metabolism is a function water temperature. Metabolism increases as you increase temperature. Furthermore, in my opinion, THE most crucial parameter in all this is water flow. As you increase nutrients, metabolism of not only corals, but also all other critters, including microbes increase. However, in order for these organisms to efficiently utilise these nutrients we ought to increase flow as well. I will post a link about water flow later today.

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by shih87

A interested statement or observation, worth to dig deeper. I believe you are not alone here, but a bit more inputs may help a even stronger statement and some kind of learning for all of us.

I would welcome more input in this.. after I wrote it, though, I thought about it more and started to feel like it really doesn't make sense. Or that there is no consistency in terms of nutrient levels, supplements and overall coral health. Look at slavetonet's tank- it is stunning, growing like wildfire with very good colour. He supplements heavily and has quite low nutrients. Urbanek's tank also had great growth fantastic, colours, low nutrients (relatively) and he used full recommended doses of FM colors.
There really are so many examples of low nutrient tanks that are amazing and dose a lot of supplements.. the AF tanks or zeo..
And then here are tanks like Ed's or Connor's which don't supplement anything (although there is a significant and important group of elements in the calcium part of two part additives) and are stunning.
I don't see a correlation, really..

Originally Posted by kevlow

I agree.
That statement is right at the edge of something important.

I think there is a tie between high nutrients with higher par that allows for increased growth rate and color without browning. [Low par with high nutrients only browns out SPS for me while high par and no nutrients produce tan acros] Without large amounts of Zooanthellae present the Acros depend on the supplements for health and well being. Especially since the light and high nutrients are driving growth.

Basically, sufficient light and high nutrients drive growth faster. Colorful acros have less Zooanthellae, therefore, depend on supplements to support the increased metabolism.

Sufficient light + High nutrients = increased metabolism = greater demand for supplements.

Am I on the right track?

Kevin, I kind of feel like it's the opposite of what you said.. aren't the corals sort of in charge of zoox? Aren't the corals farming them? Don't they have control over density and health to some extent? I know the symbiotic relationship means that neither participant has total control and each benefits from the other.. maybe when nutrients are high, the zoox wants to expand but the coral has to work harder to control density and therefore needs more nutrition.
I really don't know..

Even looking at my tank (and it is by no means a stellar performer for growth or colour right now), with high nutrients and supplements, and good light, only about 1/4 of the corals grow fast, the others grow a bit and many are completely stalled..
When I had relatively lower nutrients - n around 5 and p around .08-.1, I had way better colour and growth using supplements than I have now.
I think corals can adapt to high nutrients but I also feel that generally they struggle more- maybe the supplements help in this regard..

Originally Posted by DiscusHeckel

Hi,

I think increased metabolism is a function water temperature. Metabolism increases as you increase temperature. Furthermore, in my opinion, THE most crucial parameter in all this is water flow. As you increase nutrients, metabolism of not only corals, but also all other critters, including microbes increase. However, in order for these organisms to efficiently utilise these nutrients we ought to increase flow as well. I will post a link about water flow later today.

No question flow is important. And absolutely temp plays a role..
Curious to see the link, Bulent.

[reefmutt]

Well, I am becoming increasingly frustrated with my nutrient levels..
Still around 40 ppm n and .17 p.. grrr..
My passive attempts at lowering them by adding the 6-7 liters of siporax in December didn't help, starting the Prodibio Biodigest didn't help- although the Bioptim has done wonders..
The several liters of matrix that went in before the siporax also didn't help..
I am getting motivated to be more 'active'
Last week, I added 5 liters of AF Life Biofil.. I guess that may take a bit more than a week to have an effect but it is supposed to act fairly quickly.. one week later, no change.
Today, I added a large ball of cheato! Not sure it'll grow though.. I've heard that it hates super high phosphate.. not to mention the reason I took it out in the first place was because it completely stopped growing. ..well.. we'll see..
I also ordered a 100ml container of Tropic Marin reef actif which should arrive in about 10 days.
So I have about a week to see if the biofil and or cheato make a dent in my nutrients..
If not, I'll be putting the Reef Actif to the test!

On another note, I finally bought some borax.. gonna go research RHF's method for mixing up a boron supplement. This is not for nutrient reduction. Its just because I want to try dosing it. It is one of Glennf's main additives.. so I will try it. Yes Glennf doesn't do any water changes at all but my little 10 or 8% waterchange isn't very significant it seems..
I just wish I could find a friggin Salifert Boron test kit IN CANADA!!!! But alas, I CAN'T!
Canada is a pretty big place.. I guess I haven't searched every corner but the corners I have searched have turned up nothin'.
I'll have to order from the US..
there's my very boring, pictureless update for now..

[Ucantwin]

For the chaeto I feel the light makes a tremendous difference. I first tried to grow it with a Home Depot light and it didn't grow well. I went and bought a Mars Hydro grow light off Amazon for $90 and it won't stop growing now. It will grow from a baseball size to a watermelon in just over a week, seriously.

[mhucasey]

I would second that getting a powerful grow light for the Chaeto would be a great idea to help guarantee success, but aside from that I think you either have to go fully Algal based nutrient reduction or bacterial based nutrient reduction. Mixing the two didn't appear to work for either one. Wean off the Carbon and bacteria or you will be scooping out dying Chaeto in a week or two.

The good news is that Algae is cheap and you wont have to keep buying and dosing all the different bacterial potions. You can throw a bunch of GFO in there too once the system is fully algae driven as the Iron won't touch off bacteria induced STN.

This is my first go with Algal filtration and its been a real eye opener for me. Over the years I've tried Basic Berlin, 4 different types of biopellets, Vinegar, Vodka, VSV, Zeovit, and Aquaforest. I resisted the "basic" method for many reasons but in the end it's a boring method that certainly works. I'm fine with boring and cheap at the moment.

[cobra2326]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Well, I am becoming increasingly frustrated with my nutrient levels..
Still around 40 ppm n and .17 p.. grrr..
My passive attempts at lowering them by adding the 6-7 liters of siporax in December didn't help, starting the Prodibio Biodigest didn't help- although the Bioptim has done wonders..
The several liters of matrix that went in before the siporax also didn't help..
I am getting motivated to be more 'active'
Last week, I added 5 liters of AF Life Biofil.. I guess that may take a bit more than a week to have an effect but it is supposed to act fairly quickly.. one week later, no change.
Today, I added a large ball of cheato! Not sure it'll grow though.. I've heard that it hates super high phosphate.. not to mention the reason I took it out in the first place was because it completely stopped growing. ..well.. we'll see..
I also ordered a 100ml container of Tropic Marin reef actif which should arrive in about 10 days.
So I have about a week to see if the biofil and or cheato make a dent in my nutrients..
If not, I'll be putting the Reef Actif to the test!

On another note, I finally bought some borax.. gonna go research RHF's method for mixing up a boron supplement. This is not for nutrient reduction. Its just because I want to try dosing it. It is one of Glennf's main additives.. so I will try it. Yes Glennf doesn't do any water changes at all but my little 10 or 8% waterchange isn't very significant it seems..
I just wish I could find a friggin Salifert Boron test kit IN CANADA!!!! But alas, I CAN'T!
Canada is a pretty big place.. I guess I haven't searched every corner but the corners I have searched have turned up nothin'.
I'll have to order from the US..
there's my very boring, pictureless update for now..

I've been doing a bunch of research on Cheato (posted a thread in Lighting/Filtration forum) and I don't think 0.2ppm is too high for it. I don't know where the guy with that in his sig got it from, it raised an eyebrow for sure when I saw it. Here's a really good study on Cheato growth: http://scimar.icm.csic.es/scimar/pdf/66/sm66n4355.pdf. They did PO43- enrichment at 18umol/l, which I believe is something like 1.8ppm phosphate.

The key is growing enough Chaeto to export what you need. That article talks about N/P limitation, but ideal ratios for N:P are like 15-20, so it sounds like you're fine.

[gregkn73]

Originally Posted by mhucasey

I would second that getting a powerful grow light for the Chaeto would be a great idea to help guarantee success, but aside from that I think you either have to go fully Algal based nutrient reduction or bacterial based nutrient reduction. Mixing the two didn't appear to work for either one. Wean off the Carbon and bacteria or you will be scooping out dying Chaeto in a week or two.

The good news is that Algae is cheap and you wont have to keep buying and dosing all the different bacterial potions. You can throw a bunch of GFO in there too once the system is fully algae driven as the Iron won't touch off bacteria induced STN.

This is my first go with Algal filtration and its been a real eye opener for me. Over the years I've tried Basic Berlin, 4 different types of biopellets, Vinegar, Vodka, VSV, Zeovit, and Aquaforest. I resisted the "basic" method for many reasons but in the end it's a boring method that certainly works. I'm fine with boring and cheap at the moment.

Mutt why do you thing algae and carbon dosing+bacteria, can not be combined? In Mutt's case, bacteria + carbon keep nutrients relatively high, so why do you thing algae will not thrive?

Also I have red in the past that you didn't like gfo usage. Do you thing that iron from gfo, can affect sps negatively , only in very high bacteria concentrations?

[mhucasey]

Originally Posted by gregkn73

Mutt why do you thing algae and carbon dosing+bacteria, can not be combined? In Mutt's case, bacteria + carbon keep nutrients relatively high, so why do you thing algae will not thrive?

Also I have red in the past that you didn't like gfo usage. Do you thing that iron from gfo, can affect sps negatively , only in very high bacteria concentrations?

My reasearch led me to that conclusion but frankly I didn't believe it - I was using biopellets in a recirculating reactor and wanted to add chaeto to the mix. I added it and got zero growth- even with high PO4 - and Nitrate at about 50ppm. I slowly reduced the outflow of the reactor, and saw a tiny improvement in chaeto, then finally said screw it and turns it off. Chaeto began to grow. Nutrients were consistently high throughthis whole time. There is more to algae than Nitrate and phosphate values.

As for GFO, in the old systems using carbon dosing any significant amount of GFO addition led to almost immediate base STN of acros. This happened over and over until I gave up on GFO all together. In any case, every time I've used it in the past I've had temporary and moderate phosphate reductions that made it not worth the trouble.
On a hunch, after switching over, I fillled a reactor with 500ml new and 500ml slightly used GFO and let her rip. Not one case of STN. Phosphate dropped and has stayed at 0.03 to 0.04 for a month or so now. Corals ar doing great. I think GFO has different effects depending on the system that uses it.

[gregkn73]

Originally Posted by mhucasey

My reasearch led me to that conclusion but frankly I didn't believe it - I was using biopellets in a recirculating reactor and wanted to add chaeto to the mix. I added it and got zero growth- even with high PO4 - and Nitrate at about 50ppm. I slowly reduced the outflow of the reactor, and saw a tiny improvement in chaeto, then finally said screw it and turns it off. Chaeto began to grow. Nutrients were consistently high throughthis whole time. There is more to algae than Nitrate and phosphate values.

As for GFO, in the old systems using carbon dosing any significant amount of GFO addition led to almost immediate base STN of acros. This happened over and over until I gave up on GFO all together. In any case, every time I've used it in the past I've had temporary and moderate phosphate reductions that made it not worth the trouble.
On a hunch, after switching over, I fillled a reactor with 500ml new and 500ml slightly used GFO and let her rip. Not one case of STN. Phosphate dropped and has stayed at 0.03 to 0.04 for a month or so now. Corals ar doing great. I think GFO has different effects depending on the system that uses it.

Very interesting your experiences with gfo algae and carbon dosing. Showing how diverse the results someone can get, between different methods!

I have red many reefers using algae and carbon dosing with success. One is TMZ I thing. I run a skimmer less reef , with ATS and chaeto, sometimes growing fast both of them, others one of them and very rare both are stagnant! So for sure " there is more to algae than no3 and po4 values" ! It is the same thing as film algae on glass. Currently I clean it, every 4-5 days , with no3:2, po4:0.03, a year ago every other day with 0 readings , and there was time I cleaned it every 7 or more days, with no3:25, po4:0.3 ! Go figure...

I would like to combine both bacterioplankton production with zooplankton, so nowdays I am dosing diy nopox, in Donovan's denitrator, with good results after splitting nopox in many small doses through 24h, and both ATS and chaeto are growing relatively fast. So from my small experience, I can not see any negative relationship, combining them. I hope I will not see different results , in the near future :-)

[codydemmel4]

Originally Posted by Ucantwin

For the chaeto I feel the light makes a tremendous difference. I first tried to grow it with a Home Depot light and it didn't grow well. I went and bought a Mars Hydro grow light off Amazon for $90 and it won't stop growing now. It will grow from a baseball size to a watermelon in just over a week, seriously.

I did this exact same thing. Cheato went from not growing to now I have so much that I could sell probably 3 completely packed quart sized bags every 2 weeks.

[reefmutt]

Hey Guys, both of these points are very interesting to me.
The type of light and the mixing of nutrient reduction methods..
Firstly, I am currently not carbon dosing or using gfo- or using algae to reduce nutrients- other than the bryopsis, bubble growing randomly and some cyano in my frag tank. So, basically at the moment no nutrient reduction method is in place.
I have always used dsb and algea as nutrient export- in all of my systems going back to the mid 90s.. my last system which used a 250w mh over the cheato gave me explosive amounts of cheato, for almost two years, until it just stopped.. shortly after this, the tank started as to not do as well and then I tore it down to renovate.
I take care of a large system in downtown montreal and it also uses a 5 year old mh bulb and the cheato grows like wildfire. Has done so for over a decade. Nutrient stay just above zero in that system. Sometimes, it slows down and cyano takes over but after a dose of some cyano killer, the cheato rebounds and the cyano recedes.
So clearly cheato likes bright light but it also needs something in the water to keep it happy besides n and p- there are the usual suspects like iron and probably many of the same elements many of us are playing with.. iodine, Zinc, mang. Boron.. tonnage a few..
Anyways, I don't understand why cheato sometimes just stops growing even when the light stays the same and if it stops growing in a system, why a different light would make a difference.
As for my current system, if grew cheato really well for over a year under an old AI Sol blue fixture, but then it declined sometime late last summer.
Currently, I have 4x24 w t5 over it. Not a great spectrum: 2b+ and 2lagoon blue.. I know too blue.. I'll change to pinker bulbs when I get the chance to buy some. Those were what I had on hand.
Personally, I HATE the look of the led grow lights. The light spills out into the room and I find it really uncomfortable to be around.. I'm a wus.. ok..
But more importantly, I have never used a grow light and very often had success growing cheato.. up until it stops growing..
So, having said that.. I think my system is a good light experiment because I have high nutrients, am not carbon dosing but am adding trace elements.. I will go get a couple more pink bulbs to replace the b+ bulbs and give it a bit of time. If the cheato doesn't grow, I will buy a mars hydro led and hang that and watch..

As for bacterial nutrient reduction, the only time I really had full control of nutrients while carbon dosing and manipulating p using kno3 additions was when my system was smaller and not as packed with corals and fish.
Since having my system in its current set up, I have played with carbon dosing while having cheato and not had dramatic results, just small and not very useful results.
P has always been an issue for me in my system. Even with cheato keeping n down to around 5ppm, p has been high. Only extremely aggressive gfo usage had a positive effect. Just for the hassle, yoyo effect and expense, id like to avoid gfo if I can..
I'm kind of with Greg on his one.. I don't really see why carbon dosing and cheato can't work together... I guess like all things reef, it's about getting the right balance so that neither one out competes the other..
Matt, bigE would agree with you that one shouldn't mix nutrient reduction systems but I think that would apply if one were trying to use each system to the maximum capacity AND/OR the system was not heavily inputted with nutrients.. I think my system has a solid nutrient input with all the fish I have. . If one were using both systems on a more passive level, maybe it'd work.. especially on a bigger system with higher nutrient input..
This brings me to the Tropic Marin Reef Actif.
Looks like I am about to embark on a little experimental journey.
First I will play with lighting the cheato and see what happens. Maybe switch to a grow light. I'll give this all of June and then depending on the situation, I will introduce the Reef Actif. I'm only getting it in two weeks anyways.

I should go back to last year.. or maybe earlier and see if I can dig up that YouTube video of the role of nutrients and bacteria on a reef and how too much carbon can propel unwanted high numbers of bacteria which can in turn cause tissue recession in corals..

Thanks for all or your opinions and input, guys. I like to have a plan!
Feel free to tell me if any of what I've said is full of shizzle!!

[slavetonet]

Hey Matt,
this is what I would do if that was my system.
I would load it up with more siporax or matrix. I can't remember how big your system is - around 1000 liters?
But I have loaded the equivalent of 50L of siporax into my new 5ft tank. Just running protein skimmer on it.
Then I would dose my cocktail of chemicals, vitamins, and amino acids to make my corals grow and pop colours.
In our modern system, I can't see why there could be any issues with nutrients as our technology can overcome it very effectively - imo too effective now for home aquarium.

Best of luck Matt, your system obviously works, and try to resist to change it because someone else does it differently.
Only you know your system like your back of your hands. Not me or anyone else matters.

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by slavetonet

Hey Matt,
this is what I would do if that was my system.
I would load it up with more siporax or matrix. I can't remember how big your system is - around 1000 liters?
But I have loaded the equivalent of 50L of siporax into my new 5ft tank. Just running protein skimmer on it.
Then I would dose my cocktail of chemicals, vitamins, and amino acids to make my corals grow and pop colours.
In our modern system, I can't see why there could be any issues with nutrients as our technology can overcome it very effectively - imo too effective now for home aquarium.

Best of luck Matt, your system obviously works, and try to resist to change it because someone else does it differently.
Only you know your system like your back of your hands. Not me or anyone else matters.

Wow!! 50L!! That's a lot! I'm probably at 23L of various media.. yes, my system is around 1400litres or 350 gallons.. I'm considering adding a brightwell brick and maybe another 5L life biofil.
But as has been mentioned above and Bulent mentioned it last year, no matter how much media you have, if you aren't feeding the bacteria enough carbon, it isn't really going to grow and reduce nutrients.
I sort of figured that if you are feeding the tank and have lots of fish, you are also feeding the bacteria but I guess it isn't the case with this type of media.
I guess coming from dsbs, where I think the nutrient reduction process is either different or more complex, I felt that adding carbon wasn't entirely necessary. However, I guess it is!
Anyways thanks, Slave. You are right, we all know our own system better than anybody else and we have to follow our own observations, experience and 'gut feelings' when it comes to steering our tanks..
I think I'm on the right track with additives, so now I gotta get nutrients under control.
Oh! And take some new pics.. gotta do that too..

[slavetonet]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Wow!! 50L!! That's a lot! I'm probably at 23L of various media.. yes, my system is around 1400litres or 350 gallons.. I'm considering adding a brightwell brick and maybe another 5L life biofil.
But as has been mentioned above and Bulent mentioned it last year, no matter how much media you have, if you aren't feeding the bacteria enough carbon, it isn't really going to grow and reduce nutrients.
I sort of figured that if you are feeding the tank and have lots of fish, you are also feeding the bacteria but I guess it isn't the case with this type of media.
I guess coming from dsbs, where I think the nutrient reduction process is either different or more complex, I felt that adding carbon wasn't entirely necessary. However, I guess it is!
Anyways thanks, Slave. You are right, we all know our own system better than anybody else and we have to follow our own observations, experience and 'gut feelings' when it comes to steering our tanks..
I think I'm on the right track with additives, so now I gotta get nutrients under control.
Oh! And take some new pics.. gotta do that too..

The vitamins is your bacteria carbon food.

[watchguy123]

Originally Posted by slavetonet

The vitamins is your bacteria carbon food.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. I presume that vinegar or another carbon source is part of the vitamin mix. At the suggestion of a reefer buddy, I recently experimented and added Red Sea Energy A and B supplements. It practically removed all nitrates and caused me to use quite a bit of KNO3 to bring nitrates up to around 2 ppm. And it did not stop chaeto growth, in fact I have great cheato growth. Makes one wonder about all these interesting relationships.

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by slavetonet

The vitamins is your bacteria carbon food.

that's interesting. I can't say i considered vitamins as a carbon source.. I don't really dose them. I have AF vitamins but i only use them infrequently.. maybe i should try regular dosing..

Originally Posted by watchguy123

I agree with that wholeheartedly. I presume that vinegar or another carbon source is part of the vitamin mix. At the suggestion of a reefer buddy, I recently experimented and added Red Sea Energy A and B supplements. It practically removed all nitrates and caused me to use quite a bit of KNO3 to bring nitrates up to around 2 ppm. And it did not stop chaeto growth, in fact I have great cheato growth. Makes one wonder about all these interesting relationships.

It certainly does make one wonder!
I dont think AF vitality is a vinegar based additive. It really doesn't smell like vinegar..
Mark, do the red sea products smell like vinegar?
Are you still adding the A and B?
it's also got aminos in it.. not sure it wouldn't spur a cyano outbreak in my nutrient rich system..

[reefmutt]

Little late night actinic photo dump..
A growth nub from some encrustation of a long gone coral. No idea what this is but is happy

Lovely acrodesiac. Growing well.

Red Diablo

A mystery Raja 'masterpiece'

A Fiji from reefsolution.

[cFloor]

Awesome shots Matt!