Constant struggle maintaining Alk.

[PAXpress]

I'll try to be as short winded as possible...
My tank has been setup for a little over a year. Has a few stony corals and quite a few soft corals, its a 75g tank with 20ish gallon sump. I'd say the flow is pretty low as I only have two power heads that are rated for nano tanks and an 1800 gph return pump which I've got dialed down quite a bit. I do have an apex with temp cond ph and orp probes if any of the info from those would be helpful I'd be happy to post. I test Alk and Calc weekly (except a week or two missed occasionally) and mag biweekly. I use a Hanna Checker for the Alk and red sea kits for Calc and mag. I log all of this info as well for the last at least 5 months if any of that is helpful as well. The tank is stocked fairly lightly in my opinion, two smaller sized black occe clowns, a royal gramma, a cardinal and probably 50 or so crabs and snails of assorted types. I have probably 100 pounds of rock in the tank and 40 pounds of sand. It was originally a bare bottom tank and probably 8 months ago added the sand. Over the past 3 months I've had a terrible time maintaining Alk. Seems like I can double my dose daily and still will be around 7.0 dkh when I test that sunday. I was reading some people mentioning it could be related to abiotic precipitation possibly in the sandbed etc. Coraline growth has stopped and it almost seems like there is precipitate increasing on the rocks even. I have heavy precipitation on the heaters and pump in the sump, circ pumps dont really have precipitate at all. The rocks almost look like they have snow on them from what i think is precipitate build up? I did lose a fish a month or two ago and couldnt find him anywhere could decaying fish (even several months later) contribute to this? I didnt notice abnormally low pH on my apex after i lost him... Couldnt seem to find him at all so he could have jumped out or be stuck under a rock. I lost a snail at one point and he was devoured by crabs in less than two hours so I doubt there would be anything lingering from a fish that died months ago. Corals seem to survive and grow but slowly for sure. My tank in my bedroom has much better growth. When I originally started seeing the alk fall, I was using Kalk in my ATO. I thought it was a side effect of that so I switched to an all two part dosing method. That still didn't help me raise the alk. At some points I could get the calc above or at normal levels and then that would fall too within the week. I've switched to both kalk and two part for now in an attempt to keep levels high enough. I know you may say 7.0 dkh is fine and the ocean is around that, however I STRUGGLE to keep it at that. There was a week that I was curious if it would settle out at 7.0 and didnt dose for a day or two except the normal recommended dose (13.2 or something ml of both calc and alk 2 part daily with the alk in the morning and calc at night) and it dropped down to 5.9 at one point and 6.5 at another point. I've recently experimented with increasing the temperature in the tank. (raised 1.5 degrees F) I'm not sure the exact temp in the tank because I have a few contradicting readings. My temp probe in my Display reads around 79.5 (after raising the 1.5 degrees) other apex probe in the sump reads 78.1 + or - .5 degrees on both of those, and the heater I have shows constant at 83-84... (i had it set at 80 and the apex's would turn it off if they saw the tank go higher than 79 i believe). I've read quite a bit about what could be causing it and really would appreciate someone that could give me some steps to follow to isolate the issue or at least resolve it in some way. I've been doing biweekly water changes of around 40-50% which is a bit of a pain and not cheap but even that doesnt seem to keep the alk up. I was thinking it could possibly be my salt mix (I use the cheap instant ocean purple stuff) but i tested and that showed 10.0 alk on my hanna 24 hours after mixing... What are the steps I should take to safely and quickly resolve this? I really appreciate anyone who reads through all this, and even more anyone who has their two cents or ideas.

[outssider]

you are definitely getting precipitation. kalk will temporarily increase ph. High ph encourages precipitation (especially where it's being dosed). try using backing soda (bicarbonate) diluted in ro/di water and dripping it into your sump slowly. bicarbonate should not increase your ph.

[ajoe]

Originally Posted by outssider

you are definitely getting precipitation. kalk will temporarily increase ph. High ph encourages precipitation (especially where it's being dosed). try using backing soda (bicarbonate) diluted in ro/di water and dripping it into your sump slowly. bicarbonate should not increase your ph.

plus 1

be sure it is mixed completely.

[GimpyFin]

What is your mag testing at?

[Potatohead]

Originally Posted by GimpyFin

What is your mag testing at?

This is what needs to be answered

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by Potatohead

This is what needs to be answered

Sorry I realized last night I should have given you guys some of my params. Mag Tests good normally around 1300. This past weekend it was 1340 (red sea kit) the weekend before it was 1380. My averages are between 1300-1400. Mag I test less often because that is stable for the most part and was actually one of the first things I looked into because I know low mag would allow for precipitation. Funny 4 months ago when I was struggling to maintain MAG my alk and calc were stable, seems counter intuitive from what (little) I understand of the science happening in our tanks.

As for dosing with baking soda that was my next mission. I was reading through the very helpful and informative document I see being posted often on An Improved Do-IT-Yourself Two Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System And was preparing a container and started heating the baking soda yesterday. Will try to implement that tonight if possible. Just to make sure I'm looking at the right one. 597 grams baking soda heated to 300 for a bit dissolved in enough RO/DI water to make 1 gallon total and dose similar amounts to what I was dosing with the Soda Ash mixture? Thanks again for the help. From this article it seemed like the soda ash mixture (what I've been using) is the recipe to use when you're not able to keep alk up, or did I misread that??? Can anyone give me a breakdown of when to use the one and when to use the other? Should I completely switch over or once things settle out its better to go back to the Sodium Carbonate instead of the bicarbonate?

[PAXpress]

Ok so I wasn't able to get the baking soda to mix completely even after warming the water. Maybe there was a bit too much baking soda? Anyways I did a small dose this morning and will continue to use this in leu of the Sodium carbonate mixture. Still would like a response to some of the questions in my previous post if anyone is able to. Thanks!

[outssider]

sodium carbonate will temporarily raise the ph, especially where it's being added. This will increase the chances of precipitation...that's why I suggested using bicarbonate....i'd still drip it slowly into the sump though

[PAXpress]

I've set the baking soda to drip in with my DOS and I think this past weekend I saw a more preferable alkalinity level of 8.5dKh I'll continue to monitor over the next few weeks and see if this keeps things more stable. Should I stop using kalk when using baking soda? Should i eventually go back to soda ash once things stabilize for a while?

[outssider]

soda ash and kalk will increase your ph, especially where it's being dosed.....increasing the chances of precipitation. If I were you, i'd stick with bicarbonate

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by outssider

soda ash and kalk will increase your ph, especially where it's being dosed.....increasing the chances of precipitation. If I were you, i'd stick with bicarbonate

So I tested again and still have 7.5 for alk. I'm dosing 70ml of alk and calc daily. I'll test calc this weekend but I'd really love for someone to give me some suggestions.... What could be causing this? How can I stop the precip? Is a complete tank breakdown in order?

[ADVRESOURCE]

I had high CA and low alk with kalk. I'd just 2 part dose and skip the kalk.

[ADVRESOURCE]

Go bicarbonate now and switch once you've got past the kalk ph rise.

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by ADVRESOURCE

Go bicarbonate now and switch once you've got past the kalk ph rise.

Sounds like a good plan.
Ok so I tested this past weekend and I'm still not able to get these levels up. Alk is at 6.9 calc is at 320 and mag is at 1460. according to red sea test kits (hanna for the alk).
Yesterday I changed my daily dose to 150 ml of two part calcium solution and this morning a 135 ml of baking soda solution (1 gallon mixed with 594 grams of baking soda) and am now going to set it a bit lower at 70 ml daily for calcium and 50 ml of the baking soda solution until this weekend when I'll test and reevaluate my quantities. It just really scares me with my calcium that low.
I completely cleaned out my sump this weekend after I tested and with that a 10 or 15% water change was done. We will see if these two things have an effect on my calcium and alkalinity stability.

Can anyone give me an idea on how much 2 part they are dosing compared to the size and stocking level of your tanks at least so I can have a general idea on what you all needed to settle on to keep your tanks stable?

[zsuman101]

Do 2 or 3 50% water changes in a week or ten days, then take alk and ca and mag tests. Whenever you dose 2 or 3 part you should always dose even amounts of alk and ca. Don't go over 1 dkh per day no matter what, .5 dkh would be better. Once you get to 8 or so dkh start testing twice per day. Then you will know how much 2 part you will need daily. Btw try to keep mag around 1400. You should be able to keep around 8 dkh with weekly water changes with Kalk and or 2 part . Good luck. Zsu

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by zsuman101

Do 2 or 3 50% water changes in a week or ten days, then take alk and ca and mag tests. Whenever you dose 2 or 3 part you should always dose even amounts of alk and ca. Don't go over 1 dkh per day no matter what, .5 dkh would be better. Once you get to 8 or so dkh start testing twice per day. Then you will know how much 2 part you will need daily. Btw try to keep mag around 1400. You should be able to keep around 8 dkh with weekly water changes with Kalk and or 2 part . Good luck. Zsu

I really appreciate the tips! I have been doing 50% changes fairly often and wasn't seeing results. The alk would rapidly drop. However two weekends ago I completely cleaned my sump and did a 20% water change in the process. Fast forward to this weekend (and a large calc and alk dose later which I mentioned in my previous post) and my alk reads 9.5. I nearly cried I was so happy I looked at my apex and the last time I had all above 8.5 was august of last year that's nearly a whole year of this (obviously I could have responded better and done things differently...) anyways I'll continue to monitor and dose the sodium bicarbonate for a while and also did another 20% wc this weekend. Calc was still lower than normal but it had gone up since the previous week. I guess you can chalk my issues up to poor husbandry if you'd like. It was actually difficult to clean out the sump because it's at the ground level of my basement so siphoning it isn't an option plus it's too big to get out of the aquarium cabinet without completely breaking down the tank and moving the aquarium. I ended up doing it with a small pump. Think I'll invest in a shop vac for next time unless there are any recommendations to do this easily. As for my dosing routine I've slightly modified it to 60ml calc 2 part solution and 55ml of the sodium bicarbonate solution with 594 grams mixed into 1 gallon jug. Once I move back to the soda ash solution I'll keep the doses the same.

[hkgar]

Originally Posted by PAXpress

Ok so I wasn't able to get the baking soda to mix completely even after warming the water. Maybe there was a bit too much baking soda? Anyways I did a small dose this morning and will continue to use this in leu of the Sodium carbonate mixture. Still would like a response to some of the questions in my previous post if anyone is able to. Thanks!

Did you bake the baking soda first? Different saturation levels between baked or not bake. 1 1/4 versus 2 1/4

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by hkgar

Did you bake the baking soda first? Different saturation levels between baked or not bake. 1 1/4 versus 2 1/4

Oh interesting. I didn't realize that. I did bake it but perhaps not for long enough or hot enough. I thought it was just to remove excess moisture. I'll bake better next time around. It must have somewhat baked because it is mostly dissolved, maybe I just needed to wait a bit longer. Thanks for the tip!

[hkgar]

Instructions state 1 hour at 300 f. Mix 2 1/4 cups per gallon. It does take a LOT of stirring but 2.25 will all dissolve.

Have you seen this

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by hkgar

Instructions state 1 hour at 300 f. Mix 2 1/4 cups per gallon. It does take a LOT of stirring but 2.25 will all dissolve.

Have you seen this

I have thats actually where I got the instructions for mixing. To be honest when I mixed the baking soda I only stuck it in for 30 minutes about and probably wasnt fully preheated when I stuck it in. I also then set it to the side for a few days before mixing it into the water. Also I took a walk and assumed it had baked enough but maybe not. I'll do a more thorough job next time for sure!

[outssider]

If you bake the baking soda you're changing the bicarbonate back to carbonate (soda ash).....is that what you want ? I thought the carbonate was what caused your problems to begin with ......

[zsuman101]

Originally Posted by PAXpress

I really appreciate the tips! I have been doing 50% changes fairly often and wasn't seeing results. The alk would rapidly drop. However two weekends ago I completely cleaned my sump and did a 20% water change in the process. Fast forward to this weekend (and a large calc and alk dose later which I mentioned in my previous post) and my alk reads 9.5. I nearly cried I was so happy I looked at my apex and the last time I had all above 8.5 was august of last year that's nearly a whole year of this (obviously I could have responded better and done things differently...) anyways I'll continue to monitor and dose the sodium bicarbonate for a while and also did another 20% wc this weekend. Calc was still lower than normal but it had gone up since the previous week. I guess you can chalk my issues up to poor husbandry if you'd like. It was actually difficult to clean out the sump because it's at the ground level of my basement so siphoning it isn't an option plus it's too big to get out of the aquarium cabinet without completely breaking down the tank and moving the aquarium. I ended up doing it with a small pump. Think I'll invest in a shop vac for next time unless there are any recommendations to do this easily. As for my dosing routine I've slightly modified it to 60ml calc 2 part solution and 55ml of the sodium bicarbonate solution with 594 grams mixed into 1 gallon jug. Once I move back to the soda ash solution I'll keep the doses the same.

just remember to dose alk and ca equally or you will be in the same boat sooner than you think, good luck n stuff... zsu

[homer1475]

You want to use plain baking soda(bicarbonate) not baked baking soda(soda ash).

baked baking soda will raise your PH causing more precip.

I used to have the same issue until I switched to plain baking soda. Alk remains steady with no precip.

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by homer1475

You want to use plain baking soda(bicarbonate) not baked baking soda(soda ash).

baked baking soda will raise your PH causing more precip.

I used to have the same issue until I switched to plain baking soda. Alk remains steady with no precip.

Ok well maybe my baking soda didn't cook enough. I didn't realize cooking the baking soda would turn it into sodium carbonate. When dosing my mixture that I've made it doesn't create that white cloud like the ash mixture does. What dissolution rate for the baking soda per gallon of water? And still dose the same ml of that mixture and calcium 2 part mixture?

[PAXpress]

Ok think I looked through that article better. Starting to make more sense now...please check to make sure I'm doing this right 297 grams of baking soda NOT BAKED just raw. With enough water to have 1 gallon of the mixture. And then what is a good amount to start dosing for 2 part using this as my alk portion? I'm currently dosing 60ml of calc so would I do 60 ml of this alk mixture or 120 since it's less concentrated as stated in the article?