Skimmerless

mattsilvester · 10/13/2019, 06:26 PM

Hi All,

I've been pretty quiet on this forum, and in the hobby in general, for the last 10yrs. I still run a small tank but it's nothing special. I feel I am a bit out of touch.

10-15 years ago "miracle mud" and macro algae was a hot topic. Not being sold on the mud, I just went with algae in the sump and ditched the skimmer, and enjoyed good results.

What is the latest thinking on skimmerless tanks?

I used to know the rule of thumb for the size of an algae bed needed to support a display, but don't remember.

If there are any good threads or other resources, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks.

reefgeezer · 10/14/2019, 07:25 AM

Skimmerless or not is still a matter of opinion. My $.02 is to start with a skimmer then slow it down or remove it when the tank matures and the organisms in the tank can handle the organic load.

hkgar · 10/14/2019, 12:58 PM

People do go skimmerless but I always wonder how they get the dissolved organics out of the tank?

ThRoewer · 10/14/2019, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkgar

People do go skimmerless but I always wonder how they get the dissolved organics out of the tank?

+1

If I look at the goop my skimmers remove from the tanks I can't imagine going without a skimmer long term on a reef tank.

reefgeezer · 10/15/2019, 08:06 AM

While I haven't had it happen, some tanks use DOC to the point where a skimmer is unnecessary, or even limiting. Mature tanks that have developed a lot of organisms like sponges, tube worms, and Sea Squirts in the darker regions of the reef, tanks heavily populated with soft corals, and even some mature SPS tanks where populations are heavy and and a lot of growth is occurring need a lot of DOC input.

An algae based system may be advantageous in these systems if N&P needs to be controlled without limiting DOC. Many times though, these types of systems manage N&P without much help.

That all goes out the window though for new systems. IMO, elevated DOC's cause just as many problems as N & P for systems that don't have the capability to use them. Personally, I think a skimmer is the best answer. It is effective, works immediately, and it can be adjusted to maintain changing DOC level needs as the tank matures.

eschaton · 10/16/2019, 08:02 AM

When it comes down to it, skimmate is a mixture of broken down food particles and waste (plus some bacteria and living phytoplankton that get sucked up). But really it's complex organic molecules which can be used as food for something in your tank. So long as it's not being used as food for nuisance algae - instead feeding filter-feeders like sponges, tunicates, clams, and even some corals, or chaeto and pods in your fuge - it's not a big deal.

I have to say that I've always suspected we've gotten the low level of nutrients in reef water in the wild backwards. Yes, reefs generally have crystal clear, low-nutrient water, but much of this is because there are just so many filter-feeders packed into a small area that the water passing through is just naturally "polished"

In addition, while pumps are also guilty of this, skimmers pretty quickly pulp and sequester any delicate plankton floating around your tank. It is believed by some that skimmers and pumps are a large part of the reason why it is so difficult for organisms with a planktonic larval stage to survive to metamorphosis within a tank.

hkgar · 10/16/2019, 01:25 PM

Would filter socks be a substitute for a skimmer?

alton · 10/17/2019, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkgar

Would filter socks be a substitute for a skimmer?

No.
When I had Xenia and many other softies in a tank I couldn't run my skimmer because the Xenia would not pulse. For LPS and SPS tanks use a skimmer unless you have a very light load or one giant macro algae farm. Picture of tank not using a skimmer

RioReefr · 10/17/2019, 06:36 AM

I just posted a thread about how my protein skimmer had died. For me, it has dramatically affected my reef tank and I am struggling to control algae now. The tank is 2 years old and I would have called it "established".

I literally cannot wait to get my new protein skimmer.

As for your question, you can do searches on the "Triton method" -- it basically requires a large fuge full of chaeto, pods, a good grow light, and super porous biomedia (ie marinepure).

Personally, I think it is simpler/cheaper just to install a good protein skimmer PLUS a skimmer also oxygenates the water.

five.five-six · 10/17/2019, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RioReefr

I just posted a thread about how my protein skimmer had died. For me, it has dramatically affected my reef tank and I am struggling to control algae now. The tank is 2 years old and I would have called it "established".

Established is one thing but mature is something else. In a mature tank, the mass of living corals is enough to consume the nutrients that a skimmer would export. Lots of mature tanks will run skimmers just for gas exchange but set teh skim-mate to very dry to leave more food for the coral in the water.

eschaton · 10/17/2019, 11:05 AM

I mean, in general it's the case that nuisance algae reproduce much, much faster than more desirable tank flora and fauna, like coraline and sessile inverts. This is the whole reason why there's typically a succession of algae outbreaks as a tank cycles. Thus you'd expect big issues - initially - once a skimmer breaks.

On the other hand, if you never run a skimmer - and are careful to slowly stock your tank over time, the tank biota should be able to process all the organics. Or you could wean down your skimmer use slowly over time.

I don't think there is any question with modern equipment though that it's cheaper to set up and operate a chaeto-stocked fuge than a professional-quality skimmer. And you have the added benefits of PH stabilization at night (if operated on a reverse cycle) plus a nice little pod reactor as a tank food source.

A lot of it just comes down to what kinda tank you like though. Some people are so worried about coral pests they prefer to use dry rock and just introduce bacteria and coraline - basically just looking at the tank as there for coral and fish growth/display. Others like to set up their tanks to be as close to wild reef ecosystems as is technologically feasible.

10/13/2019, 06:26 PM	#1
mattsilvester Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 3,375	Skimmerless Hi All, I've been pretty quiet on this forum, and in the hobby in general, for the last 10yrs. I still run a small tank but it's nothing special. I feel I am a bit out of touch. 10-15 years ago "miracle mud" and macro algae was a hot topic. Not being sold on the mud, I just went with algae in the sump and ditched the skimmer, and enjoyed good results. What is the latest thinking on skimmerless tanks? I used to know the rule of thumb for the size of an algae bed needed to support a display, but don't remember. If there are any good threads or other resources, I would really appreciate it. Thanks. __________________ Regards, Matt "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men." "Nemo mortalium omnibus horis sapit" - no man is at all times wise. "To a hammer, everything is a nail!" Current Tank Info: RSM 130

10/14/2019, 07:25 AM	#2
reefgeezer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 2,621	Skimmerless or not is still a matter of opinion. My $.02 is to start with a skimmer then slow it down or remove it when the tank matures and the organisms in the tank can handle the organic load. __________________ John, Current Tank Info: In-process, 90 Gallon SPS Reef

10/14/2019, 12:58 PM	#3
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	People do go skimmerless but I always wonder how they get the dissolved organics out of the tank? __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

10/15/2019, 08:06 AM	#5
reefgeezer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 2,621	While I haven't had it happen, some tanks use DOC to the point where a skimmer is unnecessary, or even limiting. Mature tanks that have developed a lot of organisms like sponges, tube worms, and Sea Squirts in the darker regions of the reef, tanks heavily populated with soft corals, and even some mature SPS tanks where populations are heavy and and a lot of growth is occurring need a lot of DOC input. An algae based system may be advantageous in these systems if N&P needs to be controlled without limiting DOC. Many times though, these types of systems manage N&P without much help. That all goes out the window though for new systems. IMO, elevated DOC's cause just as many problems as N & P for systems that don't have the capability to use them. Personally, I think a skimmer is the best answer. It is effective, works immediately, and it can be adjusted to maintain changing DOC level needs as the tank matures. __________________ John, Current Tank Info: In-process, 90 Gallon SPS Reef

10/16/2019, 01:25 PM	#7
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	Would filter socks be a substitute for a skimmer? __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

10/16/2019, 08:02 AM	#6
eschaton Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 35	When it comes down to it, skimmate is a mixture of broken down food particles and waste (plus some bacteria and living phytoplankton that get sucked up). But really it's complex organic molecules which can be used as food for something in your tank. So long as it's not being used as food for nuisance algae - instead feeding filter-feeders like sponges, tunicates, clams, and even some corals, or chaeto and pods in your fuge - it's not a big deal. I have to say that I've always suspected we've gotten the low level of nutrients in reef water in the wild backwards. Yes, reefs generally have crystal clear, low-nutrient water, but much of this is because there are just so many filter-feeders packed into a small area that the water passing through is just naturally "polished" In addition, while pumps are also guilty of this, skimmers pretty quickly pulp and sequester any delicate plankton floating around your tank. It is believed by some that skimmers and pumps are a large part of the reason why it is so difficult for organisms with a planktonic larval stage to survive to metamorphosis within a tank.

10/17/2019, 06:36 AM	#9
RioReefr Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Rio de Janeiro Posts: 394	I just posted a thread about how my protein skimmer had died. For me, it has dramatically affected my reef tank and I am struggling to control algae now. The tank is 2 years old and I would have called it "established". I literally cannot wait to get my new protein skimmer. As for your question, you can do searches on the "Triton method" -- it basically requires a large fuge full of chaeto, pods, a good grow light, and super porous biomedia (ie marinepure). Personally, I think it is simpler/cheaper just to install a good protein skimmer PLUS a skimmer also oxygenates the water.

10/17/2019, 11:05 AM	#11
eschaton Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 35	I mean, in general it's the case that nuisance algae reproduce much, much faster than more desirable tank flora and fauna, like coraline and sessile inverts. This is the whole reason why there's typically a succession of algae outbreaks as a tank cycles. Thus you'd expect big issues - initially - once a skimmer breaks. On the other hand, if you never run a skimmer - and are careful to slowly stock your tank over time, the tank biota should be able to process all the organics. Or you could wean down your skimmer use slowly over time. I don't think there is any question with modern equipment though that it's cheaper to set up and operate a chaeto-stocked fuge than a professional-quality skimmer. And you have the added benefits of PH stabilization at night (if operated on a reverse cycle) plus a nice little pod reactor as a tank food source. A lot of it just comes down to what kinda tank you like though. Some people are so worried about coral pests they prefer to use dry rock and just introduce bacteria and coraline - basically just looking at the tank as there for coral and fish growth/display. Others like to set up their tanks to be as close to wild reef ecosystems as is technologically feasible.