Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Mmiller40gt]

Originally Posted by bhazard451

I'm not going to knock MH/T5, as they undeniably work, and did work great for 3+ years for me. On the other hand, if you can't figure out the savings over time of leds, I would question your cost management abilities. Just because you have cheaper electricity and no heat issues, doesn't mean everyone else does. My cost of electricity is nearly double yours here in NY.

This is just a quick cost analysis of potential savings in my setup.

380w MH/T5 vs 120-180w LED. 200w+ saved.
$300-500+ chiller no longer needed
~650w chiller electric usage 650w saved ~$10month
8,000btu AC, ~800w electric usage (AC needs to turn on more) ~$10month

The money saved on a chiller could be used for a LED fixture alone. When you figure in the wattage of the lights, chiller, and AC in the room, you have a potential max of 1650w running at any given time that is no longer needed. Very forgiving electric costs at that point reach over $300 a year for me.

Right off the bat, I save $800. If I use my 120 gallon setup, add 200+w more per each 24" of length for the extra bulbs.

My DIY LED is 180w per 24" length, and ran $350. That's even overkill, and can be adjusted to a $250 or less per 24" of tank length. Assuming a custom ratio chinese box can provide similar results over time, that cost is $160 per fixture, using three for a 72" 120 gallon tank.

At minimum, assuming the leds can provide 75% of the growth and equal or better coloring with a full spectrum led setup, the $480 used to light my 120 gallon tank, can be made back within 2 years of bulb changes alone, had I used 3x250MH +T5. That doesn't even take in the electricity savings of $250+ a year.

By year three, I would have saved $1000+ over lighting my tank with leds compared to MH/T5. If growth performance matches in that time, you basically just "lit" $1,000 on fire staying with MH. $1,000 is a lot to many reefers.

Goldfish? I could take a vacation and scuba in a real reef for that kind of money.

Ok lets do my tank, we can skip the rest of the pump and just focus on lights.
My maristar was 6 months old with lumatek switchable ballasts, ebay delivered for 250.
I picked up a 1/4 HP chiller for 75$ local. Pulls 400 watts 3 X a day for 30 min each cycle. (I really dont need it, i just like to keep the tank within 1 degree, without it it would not go over 82).

Using the RC electric calculator
Cost of lighting to run 650 wattsX 10 hours X0.078 = per month 15.42$
Cost of chiller (same math as above) 1.42 per month

Replace that with 200 watts of LED (and the light output wont be near equivalent, but that aside) Would cost me 4.74 per month. Total saving for me to switch 12.10$ a month.

Lights cost me 45$ each for 2 pheonix and 19$ each for 2 T5's. Yearly cost of bulbs is 128$.

Two Radions would cost me 1500$ and consume 140 watts each. So lets see where MY break even point is. 10 hours a day @ 7.8 cents per kwh

Year one of MH total cost (chiller included) electric plus buying the unit 452.08
Year one two Radions and electric 1579.68

Year two MH replacing bulbs and previous year cost 782.16
Year two Radions with previous year cost 1659.36

Year 3 MH cost, again replacing bulbs and including past years cost 1112.24
Year 3 Radion cost with previous years 1739.04

Year 4 MH cost (same as above) 1442.32
Year 4 Radion (same as above) 1818.72

Year 5 MH cost (same) 1772.40
Year 5 Radion (same) 1898.40

Year 6 MH cost (same) 2102.48
Year 6 Radion cost (same) 1978.08


So 6 years to finally save 100$. That is *if* they last that long and *if* they provide 100% of the results. You could also do the same math with a cheaper unit but you still looking at 3+ years to break even. By that time something newer and better will be out and your LED fixture will be obsolete.

So Ill wait 6 years and when the rest of yall have sunk millions into this, then maybe there will be something worth ditching the tried and true gold standard for. Again this is JUST MY situation. I know some pay 3-4X my electric rate. There are others in Texas that are pay half of what I do. There is even a new plan where nights are free so many people have signed up and running the lights on a reverse schedule and paying nothing, notta for electric lighting.

I almost forgot one more point. My friend upgraded (if you call it that) his 280 to leds. Now he has 2 300 watt heaters running during the lighting hours to keep his tank from dropping below 77. That is 600 watts an hour wasted.

[James77]

Originally Posted by bhazard451

Just because you have cheaper electricity and no heat issues, doesn't mean everyone else does. My cost of electricity is nearly double yours here in NY.
.

Exactly! But just because you have more expensive electricity.....does not mean everyone does.

Most the country has quite low electric rates and temps that do not require a chiller. I have never needed one, heat is easily managed through fans even on the 90 degree summer days. When it hits over 100, yeah I do have some heat problems but having a room AC solves that. But is seems to be a given or "no brainer" on RC (not saying you said this) that LEDs always equal these astronomical savings.

Originally Posted by bhazard451

This is just a quick cost analysis of potential savings in my setup.

Potential savings usually tend to be pretty optimistic. What if a Radion fixture completely dies 1 month out of warranty? What if the parts to fix it are no longer made?

With mine, the electric savings of LED over halide is about $10/months, though this is with LED supplemtal "actinics". So over the course of 5 years, LEDs would save me maybe $600. For 2 Radium bulbs every year- a quite expensive bulb- I am looking at about $750 over 5 years. So I would save $1,350 over the course of 5 years......or a little over 20 bucks a month. That is again assuming zero problems with the LEDs, but then again there is always the potential for halide ballast failure( I use Lumateks with 5 years warranty).

$20/month is crap. It costs me almost $70 to fill my tank, I could drive a bit less( I drive around for fun a lot) and save the same. I have a hanful of credit cards ( about $4500 worth, way too much for my liking) that are accruing interest at the rate of $75/month- I could pay those off and save. There are quite a few places where one can save substantial money. The one real hobby I have and enjoy is keeping fish tanks. I am not in it to try and save less than a dollar per day. To me, planning out these LED fixtures and the potential savings over the course of 5-10 years is just plain silly. It is not money you will instantly have i your hand. You will not have the $1350 in your hand (in my case) all at once to buy all these awesome coral. I would not even notice the puky 20 bucks in my account each month .

[manix man]

Interestingly over here in the UK it's getting to the point secondhand MH and T5 units are worthless. In just over a year the secondhand price of the units has about halfed. No-one really wants them anymore, supply is out stripping demand.

[power boat jim]

Its not always about saving money, my halides used to heat the fish room (our back tv room) to 82 even with the air on. With the LEDs that room now is 7 deg cooler and the room is comfortable. Sometimes its a quality of life issue. LEDs fit the bill, and JAMES77 Ill take the puky $20.00 bucks a month if you dont want it!!!

[billwill]

I've already changed back from the black box 120W LED's back to MH. Didn't really like the look/color of the LED's and since changing back to MH my growth and colors have been spectacular in SPS/LPS dominated tank. I've had no experience with high end LED's so I can't really comment on those. LED's are very tempting though because we're having an unseasonably hot summer and these MH lights with the chiller really heat up the house. Electricity cost is low on the list for me; if it weren't I wouldn't have a reef tank.

[gskidmor]

I see some people quoting the startup price for two Radions - about $1500 - but what about the startup price for a MH setup? When I was looking for my new setup, MH setups that had T5's included weren't much cheaper than a Radion sadly and many were much more expensive AND I would have to replace those bulbs ever year or two. So unless you just buy the cheapest MH ballast and the cheapest reflector (no T-5's) and the cheapest bulbs, only then will you get anything that is considerably cheaper than a Radion - which is one of the more expensive setups. If you go with the AI-Sol, it's about half of the Radion to start.

MH+T5 or Radion, you're too far off either way to start just on initial setup if you compare apples to apples, i.e., pre-made MH/T-5 fixtures to a ready made LED fixture (Radion). If you build a piece meal MH system, you can build a DIY LED for maybe a couple hundred.

So startup costs are about equal - it's why I went with LED even though I'm very comfortable with MH. I've personally always had to run my AC during the summer months with MH which always added at least $100 a month to my electric bill. Now if the Navy commercials are right and 80% of people live by the water (oceans to keep it simple), maybe the temps are more temperate and don't require AC.

LIke PB Jim said, there are other issues to consider - I always hated how the MH lit up the entire room unless you built a full canopy around it...

I like hearing the comments that people are having success with LEDs - it makes me feel a little better about my purchase!

[bhazard451]

Interesting how everyone fighting back on costs, goes and uses the most expensive led fixture on the market as the baseline. There is a huge difference in spending $750 to light a 120 gallon with a DIY fixture of leds, over using 3 Radions at $2250, while achieving the exact same performance. If the Radion was the only choice on the market, I would be in 100% agreement that MH/T5 would be the way to go.

A DIY fixture won't go obsolete, as you have the ability to replace individual leds at less than $4 a led at will whenever you wanted to. Radions are already obsolete. The replace a fixture every year argument is very true for a Radion and non-modular fixtures, but not a DIY light.

You can't ignore DIY or cheap boxes as a valid lighting solution, because everyone has done some sort of DIY work if they own a reef, either via plumbing, drilling, creating stands, overflows, sumps, etc.

Using $750 as the full base cost for my 120, compared to changing 3 phoenix bulbs and 8 T5 bulbs per year, I make up the cost in bulbs and electricity by the end of year two. The numbers look quite different now don't they? Initial cost decreases considerably more if you buy chinese led lights or used led fixtures, since those MH numbers stated are based off of used equipment.

[bhazard451]

Originally Posted by billwill

I've already changed back from the black box 120W LED's back to MH. Didn't really like the look/color of the LED's and since changing back to MH my growth and colors have been spectacular in SPS/LPS dominated tank. I've had no experience with high end LED's so I can't really comment on those. LED's are very tempting though because we're having an unseasonably hot summer and these MH lights with the chiller really heat up the house. Electricity cost is low on the list for me; if it weren't I wouldn't have a reef tank.

Did it happen to only use Blue and Cool White in it? There-in lies the problem. My chinese 120w originally was CW:RB and I was not fully satisfied with the color either. Once I added more varied leds into it, it has been a complete turnaround. It easily matches how the tank looked compared to when MH/T5s were over them. Adding only a few violets, reds, greens, and multiple kelvin whites changes the look dramatically.

I haven't seen one person who switched back actually try a fixture which incorporates more spectrum before making a judgement on leds.

[Mmiller40gt]

The used market may not be a fair comparison. But they are pennies on the dollar and you can find some nice almost new fixtures for very cheap. The ebay priced for the new model LED fixtures are almost retail. Even if you consider a new fixture. The maristar two with bulbs delivered is 599$ delivered and covers a 48 inch tank. So buying new I would break even after 3-4 years instead of 6. Many people are already have a lighting setup so upfront cost is essentially zero. That pushes the break even point waaay out.

If you wanna compare DIY then you can DIY a halides t5 setup for very cheap as well. Many of us prefer the nice clean look of a manufactured fixture to a DIY that is time consuming and looks kinda rough unless they go in a canopy.
If you wanna compare the cheap china leds the fair comparison would be an aquatraders fixture (cheap china knock offs). 2 China led units cost 400$, one 48 inch odyssea costs 299$. Still going to take you over a year to break even. The warranty on the china units require you to ship them back for almost the cost of the actual unit, odssea has no warranty so its equally a wash. FWIW oddsea sucks, but the china led units have not been time tested either.

[Mmiller40gt]

Originally Posted by bhazard451

Interesting how everyone fighting back on costs, goes and uses the most expensive led fixture on the market as the baseline. There is a huge difference in spending $750 to light a 120 gallon with a DIY fixture of leds, over using 3 Radions at $2250, while achieving the exact same performance..

I would argue it is not the "same performance". On top of that a quality warrantied MH fixture mentioned above would light that same tank for 599$. No diy and a super clean look

[Tickle]

Originally Posted by bhazard451

Interesting how everyone fighting back on costs, goes and uses the most expensive led fixture on the market as the baseline. There is a huge difference in spending $750 to light a 120 gallon with a DIY fixture of leds, over using 3 Radions at $2250, while achieving the exact same performance. If the Radion was the only choice on the market, I would be in 100% agreement that MH/T5 would be the way to go.

A DIY fixture won't go obsolete, as you have the ability to replace individual leds at less than $4 a led at will whenever you wanted to. Radions are already obsolete. The replace a fixture every year argument is very true for a Radion and non-modular fixtures, but not a DIY light.

You can't ignore DIY or cheap boxes as a valid lighting solution, because everyone has done some sort of DIY work if they own a reef, either via plumbing, drilling, creating stands, overflows, sumps, etc.

Using $750 as the full base cost for my 120, compared to changing 3 phoenix bulbs and 8 T5 bulbs per year, I make up the cost in bulbs and electricity by the end of year two. The numbers look quite different now don't they? Initial cost decreases considerably more if you buy chinese led lights or used led fixtures, since those MH numbers stated are based off of used equipment.

+1 I built my led fixture for my 40 for about 150 and that was including namebrand meanwells. Its a 100 watt unit that i only run at about 60% and it replaced a 400 watt 20k mh bulb. My mh doesnt even hold a candle to my leds. 1/2 the size on everything and not as much heat. Everything ive put under these has really taken off mostly sps. I have mine set to ramp up from 10% to 60-75% throught the course of the day and then they hold there for 2-3 hours and then start dimming back down again. I think that part is key. I never once acclimated a coral to leds, just plop it in and forget about it. I will point out im using the 420,455nm,14k,10k lights. I think the diversity is key as well. Just an example for you is i bought a birdnest from a friend who had it under a 6 bulb t5 unit on his 55. it was about 1 inch tall then with no.branches. 1 month in my tank and its a little over 3 inches with about 10 branches. Im using a Diy multichip fixture. If you do some shopping around you can find 10watt chips for under 3 bucks a chip. No I will not switch back to mh.

the phone in my hands

[gskidmor]

I wanted the super clean look myself when I bought a LED fixture. I ignored the used market in my comparison as it's not consistent, that is, one person cant be guaranteed to get as great a deal as the next.

I'm starting to wonder if a lot of people who switched to LED and quickly (I'll define that as a year or less) abandoned them went through the same thing I went through when I switched from CF to MH - with CF my corals had great growth and coral. MY LFS talked up the benefits of MH and after 4.5 years of CF I had a MH pendant over my tank and I couldn't have been unhappier - until I gave it a year and then things were looking good.

It's odd too - when I first really started researching MH there were a lot of threads asking one particular question "is this too much light" - something I don't see with the LEDs and I'm assuming it's because many have a hard time believing that groups of this little 3 -5 mm electronic component can put out more light than a MH. And, I had the same problem too. The Radion's box/instructions said it was equivalent to a 270w MH but some of the PAR reading's I've seen people post show it considerably more powerful than a brand new 250w MH and if the quantum meters under-read the blue spectrum by upwards of 40%, it could be closer to a 400w MH if not more.

Why do I say this? when I first got my Radion, I purchased a few frags from someone that had them growing under a 12" deep frag tank covered by 400w MH bulbs that were 6 months old. The frags he cut were from the top of the colonies in his frag tank and he mailed them off. I had my Radion peak at 100% all channels for about 2 hours and as I've been successfully doing for 10+ years, I did little acclimation as I figured a fixture comparable to a 250w MH should pose no problem to a coral coming from a 400w MH. I've done this more times than I can count in the past when I had 250W MH over my tank - is it correct, I guess if you go by the die hard rules no, but up until now it's never failed me. Within one week all the frags that were 8" below the water with the Radion 12" above the tank were bleached white/dead. It wasn't until I turned the Radion down to 45% that I stopped bleaching corals coming from 250w/400w MH tanks.

Now if a single Radion can do that, I think I should be seeing more threads asking, is this LED fixture too much light - but I don't. Obviously, I had a little bit of a learning curve to come up and my current batch of frags are encrusting rather quickly under my Radion at 45% with just 3 channels (vs 5 before) on. I've even ordered the new TIR lenses which should allow me to run my radion at probably 25% with the same affect! Imagine that, using about 30/35 watts of LED to get the same affect as a high powered MH!!

Now I"m assuming that I will be successful when I make the following statement - I can now grow corals with 30-35 watts, get great color, use less energy (better for the environment and the summer electric grid), get a great looking fixture, get actinics, no longer need a chiller/continuous AC, no longer have to replace bulbs, and no longer light my entire room! What's not to like...assuming that I can get what I'm hoping for and what others have claimed to achieve with my fixture!

[bhazard451]

Originally Posted by Mmiller40gt

If you wanna compare the cheap china leds the fair comparison would be an aquatraders fixture (cheap china knock offs). 2 China led units cost 400$, one 48 inch odyssea costs 299$. Still going to take you over a year to break even. The warranty on the china units require you to ship them back for almost the cost of the actual unit, odssea has no warranty so its equally a wash. FWIW oddsea sucks, but the china led units have not been time tested either.

Not true at all. Aquatraders Odyssea/Beamworks whatever units don't even hold a candle to something like this, in power, quality or price. Not only that, you can customize the led layout with whatever leds you want.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/prod...587678783.html

I've opened up and dissected several of these chinese units, and most of them are very good quality. I have several shots of the internals of several chinese fixtures in the chinese thread, and I even re-used one to make my DIY led light.

The guys at this company have been great to work with. I still keep in touch with them.

Warranty Info:
"1. All our products come with Full Factory waranty:
EverGrow warrants that our products are free of defects for a period of THREE years.
We will repair or at our option replace any product that is defective.
The warranty covers defects in workmanship and defective components.
It does not cover damage caused by abuse, moisture damage or water.

For the first year
2. Parts:
A. Extra Blue/White/Violet(420nm) LEDs: Total amount less then 8pcs will be sent out with Orders, 100% FREE;
B. Wrong packing/Missing Parts such as Plugs/Hangers: Will be sent out in 24 hours during working days, 100% FREE;
3. Not working:
C. Parts such as LEDs/Drivers/Dimmers: Will be sent out in 24 hours in 24 hours during working days if you can repair it yourself (We will help), 100% FREE;
D. Please return to our Agent in USA or EverGrow in China if you don't think you can repair it: Parts/Shipping, 100% FREE;
E. Please return to our Agnet in USA or EverGrow in China if light totally can't work: New light will be sent out in 3-5 working days after problem confirming;

For the 2-3 year
F. Free Parts such as LEDs/Plugs/Driver/Fans/Dimmers: Will be sent out in 24 hours during working days if you can repair it, customers pay shipping;
G. Please return to our Agent in USA or EverGrow in China if you don't think you can repair it: Free Parts, customers pay shipping."

[bhazard451]

Originally Posted by Mmiller40gt

I would argue it is not the "same performance". On top of that a quality warrantied MH fixture mentioned above would light that same tank for 599$. No diy and a super clean look

You're right. My DIY doesn't match a Radion it performance. It BEATS it handily, has more power at 180w full blast, and has more color options, for less than half the price.

Not super clean?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2183576

[Mmiller40gt]

Originally Posted by bhazard451

You're right. My DIY doesn't match a Radion it performance. It BEATS it handily, has more power at 180w full blast, and has more color options, for less than half the price.

Not super clean?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2183576

For sure not super clean. And why the fans with LEDS? And again another empty LED tank. Wish those with all the opinions on LED's actually had tank pictures with long term success.

[gskidmor]

The components themselves can get hot even if they don't radiate the heat in to the tank and keeping them cooler increases the efficiency and life the LED

[Mmiller40gt]

FWIW my current tank has been up less than 3 months. Not super clean, but close. I need to get the 2 wires straight. The desk on the side no longer has 2 part as I replaced with a calcium reactor.
There are some brown frags. I bought a guys LED frag tank complete with 60 frags. I moved them all under the halides and within a week they started chaning color and growing. They were growing under his setup by slowly and brown. Then I flipped the tank, pumps, and DIY led setup for what I paid for it. My lady had ordered a nice led fixture but after seeing the color change of the frags in the first week called and canceled. She is keeping the halides on her tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjGtckvpvc&hd=1

[Tickle]

I also want to agree with the too much light question. I moved the livestock out of my 40 to a 10 temporarily to deal with some bryopsis i had. I popped my light fixture on the 10 gallon and ran it at 10% which is the lowest they will go before shutting off. My corals looked upset and my birdnest started loosing all its color. I started raising the % of the lights with no improvement over a week or so. I recently put everything back in the 40 and its making a great recovery. I now also see my lfs going with leds also. uploadfromtaptalk1345242672228.jpg
Definatley not the cleanest and wire loom wouldnt hurt but nowhere near as big as some if the units ive seen

the phone in my hands

[James77]

Originally Posted by power boat jim

Its not always about saving money, my halides used to heat the fish room (our back tv room) to 82 even with the air on. With the LEDs that room now is 7 deg cooler and the room is comfortable. Sometimes its a quality of life issue. LEDs fit the bill, and JAMES77 Ill take the puky $20.00 bucks a month if you dont want it!!!

Not the first one to want me to cut a check out since I "don't want the $20" . Its just plain ridiculous to me to cast out and plan these savings on LEDs when for some of us, it equates to $20. As I have said, I am not in this hobby to pinch pennies, if it gets that bad I will break down my tanks. Now if my setup was running a chiller very often, and I had heat issues....LEDs make sense.

In the dead heat of summer, my licing room is a bit stuffy and humid with the tank. If a fan does not cut it, the AC goes on for a couple hours. Not every single person suffers from hot tanks and stupid electric rates. LEDs do not always equal substantial savings.

[Goldcoastreefs]

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1345246331.372285.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1345246394.844925.jpg

250w Radiums

[James77]

The problem with DIY LED fixtures is they lack a lot of the features of the commerical ones, plus the appearance as well is not the best without some very good skill. The old slab of aluminum with LEDs stuck to it looks like crap if you have an open top tank with nice aquarium furniture. Not everyone has the skills and ability or they dont even want to build their own. I agree the Radion is meh at best, but it is amongst the bes looking fixture. My halide setup has finished pendants and a reefbrite strip, and it looks great.

Im also a little skeptical on just being able to plug in new LEDs to these DIY fixtures. Will the voltages and amperages not being changing at all?

[my2girls]

Originally Posted by power boat jim

I noted after swithching from MH to LEDs a drop off in growth in some corals also. After about 8 months it dawned on me to look at a thermometer. The tank lost 8 deg of heat in the switch. I boosted the temp up a bit and now most corals are back to having to be fragged every couple of months. I also believe it takes nearly a year for all the coral to acclimate to the change from MH to LED and lets face it there are a few corals that dont like the change at all. After over 2 years with with LEDs the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages for me. I wont be switching back.

As far the as cost savings go, its one of scale and time. The more MH you have to begin with the more LEDs will save you in cooling cost in your house and tank as well as in bulb replacement.

^^^ This is exactly how I feel about MH vs. LEDs. Nobody has patience anymore. It takes time (sometimes lots) for corals to acclimate to LEDs. Reefers that switch back before a years time are just impatient.

Heat from halides is a MAJOR problem unless you live in Alaska. Some reefers are just better at managing tank temp than others. Halides DO affect room temperature which impacts your tank and your wallet. I'm glad Jim pointed it out. Heat added during the winter months is the only benefit I can recognize.

My last thought... I'm all for spending money on this hobby. If someone wants to buy the latest and greatest lighting every year then more power to them. Buy one of each type of lighting and switch though them each month, I don't care. However, I really don't understand why anyone would want to buy older technology. It is clear that LEDs are more than capable... even the now "old school" blue and white fixtures.

[James77]

Originally Posted by my2girls

Heat from halides is a MAJOR problem unless you live in Alaska. Some reefers are just better at managing tank temp than others.

No, it is not a MAJOR problem for the majority of halide owners. Most do not even run chillers, all over the country. Rhode Island is pretty hot most the year- you are right next to me in CT, from June on this year it has been well into the 80s most the time. Far from Alaska...would you not agree? Not once has my tank temp been an issue, and I have only run the AC on the really humid days. Even the fans on top the tank rarely come on. I've NEVER needed a chiller on any of my tanks with all sorts of halides from 150 watts to 400 watts.

Sure if you put 800 watts of halides in a closed canopy with the lights 5 inches off the water you will have problems, but that is poor use of them. There are pretty easy steps to managing the heat, simple computer fans solve 90% of most peopls heat issues.

[my2girls]

We are practically neighbors. I completely disagree with you on the heat issue. Like I said, you are probably good at managing it.

I dont need fans or a chiller anymore. The house stays cool. Halide fixtures blow like the winds of Hades. Hot as H3LL! No thanks, been there, done that.

[gskidmor]

Maybe you work from home - but how do you know your fans don't come on often? Another issue to consider is how much water do you evaporate from your system? I have about a total of 75 gallons in my system and I have to replace about 5 gallons every 7 days for evaporation.

I lived in Rochester, NY, Buffalo, NY, and Cleveland, OH and heat from MH were a problem in all but the winter months. Out here in Irvine which seldom seems to get above 80 heat from MH is a major problems for the posters on the southern Cali forum. For someone that always talks about how wattage is converted to heat in a tank, your tank seems to live in a wattage void if your MH's (unless you're only using 150/175's) have no affect on your system. If the outside ambient temps are in the 80's and your house isn't heating up, your house is very shaded, you're running the AC more than you realize, or physics don't work in your part of the world.