Check out my new DIY power back up! (400k of pics) - Page 5

BeanAnimal · 11/11/2004, 10:39 PM

AGM, SLA or WET CELL batteries charge at a higher current and voltage than GEL CELLS. GELS can be seriously damaged if charged on a system desigen for SLA or WET cells.

GELS are old technology and have beem far surpassed by AGM (SLA, SVLA) type batteries. Better life span and better charge/discharge characteristics.

Bean

musicsmaker · 11/12/2004, 03:36 PM

These are the batteries I was talking about. The ones on the right are deep cycle.

http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/

reefkeeper2 · 11/18/2004, 08:39 AM

Does anyone know the difference between a step sine wave and a PWM sine wave? My old Tripp Line inverter uses a step sine, and the newer models use PWM. Is PWM just a new word for the same thing?

BeanAnimal · 11/18/2004, 10:13 AM

PWM stand for pulse width modulation.

It tells you nothing about the shape of the sine wave...just how it is created. A step sine wave refers to the shape... which is not good for motors.

BeanAnimal · 11/18/2004, 10:15 AM

musics:

Those ARE NOT gels cells. They optima units are sealed leads with glass substrate or paste type acid. Exactly for the reasons I stated above.

GEL cells are old technology and pretty much garbage.

Bean

reefkeeper2 · 11/18/2004, 11:14 AM

So is the PWM better for motors or is it the same thing? When I called Tripp Line, the woman I spoke with said it was basically the same thing. I kinda doubted her expertise however, so thats why I am asking here. I would but a new PWM inverter If I knew it would work better for my pump, but I don't want to throw my money away on basically the same piece of equipment

BeanAnimal · 11/18/2004, 01:14 PM

You don't want to use a modified sine wave, square wave, or step wave inverter to run a motor. You want to use a "true sine wave" or "pure sine wave" inverter.

PWM is the technology used to create any of the above.

The term PWM sine wave inverter simply refers to the technology that creates the output... .not the shape of the waveform

So there is no answer to your question. You need more information about the output of the PWM inverter. Many true sine wave units use PWM. However that does not mean that all PWM units put out a true sinewave.

Bean

Alpha179 · 12/10/2004, 12:31 PM

I am getting ready to build this UPS. I think it is the best one that I have found. Could anyone help me out with the wiring for this Relay?

Thanks for the help

grochmal · 12/10/2004, 12:42 PM

Pin 1 is connected to pin 4 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 1 is connected to pin 3 when the relay is energized (normally open)
Pin 6 is connected to pin 5 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 6 is connected to pin 7 when the relay is energized (normally open)
Pin 11 is connected to pin 8 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 11 is connected to pin 9 when the relay is energized (normally open)

Pins 2 and 10 are connected to the coil - how you energize the relay to switch from normally open to normally closed.

Sound right?

Alpha179 · 12/10/2004, 12:57 PM

Is one side neutral and the other side positive? Does it matter?

Alpha179 · 12/10/2004, 01:16 PM

I am getting ready to build this UPS. I think it is the best one that I have found. Could anyone help me out with the wiring for this Relay?

Thanks for the help

mtndavid · 12/10/2004, 01:26 PM

I don't want to be a nay sayer, but I want to mention that you should be extremely care when doing you own design and build on electrical devices. It is great to do and I do it all the time. This is somthing to thing about, most of the commeercial electric devices that are purchased are UL listed ie they are tested by an indepant lab for the use that they are designed for, the lab then says it is ok for the use they tested it for, if you are using it in its intended use and it failes the company is liable, with electricity fire can be started very easly as some have found out. My point here is if you build somthing and use and it fails and a fire burns your house down and they find out that a home made piece of equipment caused the fire they might not honor the insuance policy. Agian I dont want to spoil the jun in DIY but please be careful it doent take alot to cause a fire, just be safe and do like most of you are test your design and retest it.

grochmal · 12/10/2004, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alpha179
Is one side neutral and the other side positive? Does it matter?

One side of what, the coil?

Alpha179 · 12/10/2004, 05:54 PM

I figured that the coil would be "hot" on 1 side and "neutral" on the other. What I meant was, do I wire the one side of the Relay "hot" and the other side "neutral"? Or as long as each pair has 1 hot and 1 neutral, it doesn't matter which wire is where.

Quote:

Pin 1 is connected to pin 4 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 1 is connected to pin 3 when the relay is energized (normally open)
Pin 6 is connected to pin 5 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 6 is connected to pin 7 when the relay is energized (normally open)
Pin 11 is connected to pin 8 when the relay is not energized (normally closed)
Pin 11 is connected to pin 9 when the relay is energized (normally open)

Pins 2 and 10 are connected to the coil - how you energize the relay to switch from normally open to normally closed.

So if Pin 2 is hot then Pins 1, 3, and 4 would be hot and 8, 9, 10, and 11 would be neutral.

Also, when the Inverter switch is connected, (in series), does this mean that the "input" or "output" wire on the switch is spliced and 1 side is wired to Pin 6 and the other side to Pin 5?

I should remember this, but it has been 20+ years since I have done any of this.

grochmal · 12/13/2004, 10:26 AM

The wires connected to pins 2 and 10 do not connect through to any other pins, they are used only to turn the relay "on" or "off" - switching between normally closed and normally open positions.

When the relay is "off", meaning no power is applied to the coil, pins 1 & 4, 6 & 5, 11 & 8 are connected.
When the relay is "on", meaning power is applied to the coil, pins 1 & 3, 6 & 7, 11 & 9 are connected.

What you connect to pins 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11 is up to you.
As an example, what you could do is connect pin 1 to the neutral wire of a pump, then connect pin 3 to the neutral wire of a cord connected to your house power, and connect pin 4 to the neutral wire coming out of your power inverter.
Thus, when you have power at your house, pins 1 and 3 are connected meaning your pump get's it's power from the house.
When the power goes out, pins 1 and 4 are connected so the pump gets it's power from your power inverter.
You could do similar for the hot wire, etc.

You have the right idea for wiring the Inverter switch.
Cut one of the wires on the switch, then connect a new wire from one end of that cut wire to pin 5 or 6, and another wire from the other end of the cut wire to the other pin.
This will turn the inverter on when your power goes out.

As mtndavid said, if you are not 100% comfortable doing this and you don't think you have a full grasp of the wiring, you are better off not attempting it because incorrect wiring could be quite harmfull...

Alpha179 · 12/16/2004, 01:36 AM

Thanks for confirming my wiring. I figured that I had the correct idea, but wanted to be sure before I actually wired this and applied power.

This DIY project rocks. I just finished wiring it up and set it up on my current tank. I added a Green LED for when it is running on house power and a Yellow LED for battery power. I tested it and it gave me 8.2 hours running both main pumps, 2 RIO 2700s for water flow, and the RIO 600 that runs the protein skimmer.

I have all kinds of ideas for this backup system (alarm backup, emergency lighting etc.) Thanks again.

Alpha179

grochmal · 12/16/2004, 08:09 AM

You're welcome.
There's nothing more satisfying than seeing your own handywork in action.

fishtk75 · 02/18/2006, 05:30 AM

Does anyone still have a copy of this project pic's and details and wiring?
I click on the links and the pic,s showing how to's and this will not come up for me.

fishtk75 · 02/18/2006, 05:31 AM

Does anyone still have a copy of this project pic's and details and wiring?
I click on the links and the pic,s showing how to's and this will not come up for me.

fishtk75 · 02/18/2006, 05:31 AM

Does anyone still have a copy of this project pic's and details and wiring?
I click on the links and the pic,s showing how to's and this will not come up for me.

musicsmaker · 02/18/2006, 06:44 AM

Dave is still around on RC, but I'm not sure if he is watching this thread anymore. I would PM him and see if he still has the old shots. He is a good guy and a good reefer as well. He pitches in more than his fair share in this hobby, and I'm sure he would be glad to help you if he can.

Playfair · 02/18/2006, 09:01 AM

Thanks, Musicmaker! How can I fail to respond to an intro like that?

I had been hoping this thread would eventually fade out, as in hind sight, I probably shouldn't have posted a project with the inherent risks of messing with line AC...

I finally did some digging in the archives to find the original pictures since the ISP links died. Here is a re-post with the original context.

"The main unit is in the basement, with only an outlet box in the cabinet."

"This outlet has a cord that plugs into the main GFI, and routes power through 2 legs of 4 conductor wire down to the UPS. Either house current is sent back up, or it is switched over to inverter power."

"Here's a top view of the backup"

"The heart of the system is a transfer switch that consists of a relay normally energized with house power, and when that is absent, it turns on the 300w AC power inverter, and sends that power back up to the outlet."

"There are a few other bells in there, like a test switch, audible alarm, and indicator lights."

Shivaji · 02/18/2006, 10:32 AM

Thanks Dave. I started at the beginning of this thread 15-20 minutes ago, and had to come to the every end to finally see what the project looked like, as all the pictures were gone. Very nice - a real professional looking job !!!

Couple of questions - since I have your attention. Where did you get the inverter, and could you also post the schematics ?

Thanks again, I am looking forward to getting back to using a soldering iron again after some 30 years ...

musicsmaker · 02/18/2006, 11:13 AM

I got my inverter at either Lowes or Home Depot. Can't remember for sure.

BlitzK · 02/18/2006, 11:45 AM

Maybe not so ~4 yrs ago, but Walmart or Harborfreight has better prices on inverters these days... 8-)

11/12/2004, 03:36 PM	#102
musicsmaker Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ravenna, OH Posts: 3,059	These are the batteries I was talking about. The ones on the right are deep cycle. http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/ __________________ "The best threads rest with The Ancients..." - The Ancients.

11/18/2004, 08:39 AM	#103
reefkeeper2 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Bridgewater, MA Posts: 1,234	Does anyone know the difference between a step sine wave and a PWM sine wave? My old Tripp Line inverter uses a step sine, and the newer models use PWM. Is PWM just a new word for the same thing? __________________ Paul Dec 08 TOTM Current Tank Info: Envisions 427gal

11/18/2004, 11:14 AM	#106
reefkeeper2 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Bridgewater, MA Posts: 1,234	So is the PWM better for motors or is it the same thing? When I called Tripp Line, the woman I spoke with said it was basically the same thing. I kinda doubted her expertise however, so thats why I am asking here. I would but a new PWM inverter If I knew it would work better for my pump, but I don't want to throw my money away on basically the same piece of equipment __________________ Paul Dec 08 TOTM Current Tank Info: Envisions 427gal

12/10/2004, 12:42 PM	#109
grochmal Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 647	Pin 1 is connected to pin 4 when the relay is not energized (normally closed) Pin 1 is connected to pin 3 when the relay is energized (normally open) Pin 6 is connected to pin 5 when the relay is not energized (normally closed) Pin 6 is connected to pin 7 when the relay is energized (normally open) Pin 11 is connected to pin 8 when the relay is not energized (normally closed) Pin 11 is connected to pin 9 when the relay is energized (normally open) Pins 2 and 10 are connected to the coil - how you energize the relay to switch from normally open to normally closed. Sound right? __________________ Jeff Current Tank Info: 125 gallon bare-bottom reef, 6' Maristar light, Tunze streams, 55 gallon sump, ASM G3 skimmer, RDSB

12/13/2004, 10:26 AM	#115
grochmal Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 647	The wires connected to pins 2 and 10 do not connect through to any other pins, they are used only to turn the relay "on" or "off" - switching between normally closed and normally open positions. When the relay is "off", meaning no power is applied to the coil, pins 1 & 4, 6 & 5, 11 & 8 are connected. When the relay is "on", meaning power is applied to the coil, pins 1 & 3, 6 & 7, 11 & 9 are connected. What you connect to pins 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11 is up to you. As an example, what you could do is connect pin 1 to the neutral wire of a pump, then connect pin 3 to the neutral wire of a cord connected to your house power, and connect pin 4 to the neutral wire coming out of your power inverter. Thus, when you have power at your house, pins 1 and 3 are connected meaning your pump get's it's power from the house. When the power goes out, pins 1 and 4 are connected so the pump gets it's power from your power inverter. You could do similar for the hot wire, etc. You have the right idea for wiring the Inverter switch. Cut one of the wires on the switch, then connect a new wire from one end of that cut wire to pin 5 or 6, and another wire from the other end of the cut wire to the other pin. This will turn the inverter on when your power goes out. As mtndavid said, if you are not 100% comfortable doing this and you don't think you have a full grasp of the wiring, you are better off not attempting it because incorrect wiring could be quite harmfull... __________________ Jeff Current Tank Info: 125 gallon bare-bottom reef, 6' Maristar light, Tunze streams, 55 gallon sump, ASM G3 skimmer, RDSB

11/11/2004, 10:39 PM	#101
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	AGM, SLA or WET CELL batteries charge at a higher current and voltage than GEL CELLS. GELS can be seriously damaged if charged on a system desigen for SLA or WET cells. GELS are old technology and have beem far surpassed by AGM (SLA, SVLA) type batteries. Better life span and better charge/discharge characteristics. Bean

11/18/2004, 10:13 AM	#104
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	PWM stand for pulse width modulation. It tells you nothing about the shape of the sine wave...just how it is created. A step sine wave refers to the shape... which is not good for motors.

11/18/2004, 10:15 AM	#105
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	musics: Those ARE NOT gels cells. They optima units are sealed leads with glass substrate or paste type acid. Exactly for the reasons I stated above. GEL cells are old technology and pretty much garbage. Bean

11/18/2004, 01:14 PM	#107
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	You don't want to use a modified sine wave, square wave, or step wave inverter to run a motor. You want to use a "true sine wave" or "pure sine wave" inverter. PWM is the technology used to create any of the above. The term PWM sine wave inverter simply refers to the technology that creates the output... .not the shape of the waveform So there is no answer to your question. You need more information about the output of the PWM inverter. Many true sine wave units use PWM. However that does not mean that all PWM units put out a true sinewave. Bean

12/10/2004, 12:31 PM	#108
Alpha179 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 5	I am getting ready to build this UPS. I think it is the best one that I have found. Could anyone help me out with the wiring for this Relay? Thanks for the help

12/10/2004, 12:57 PM	#110
Alpha179 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 5	Is one side neutral and the other side positive? Does it matter?

12/10/2004, 01:16 PM	#111
Alpha179 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 5	I am getting ready to build this UPS. I think it is the best one that I have found. Could anyone help me out with the wiring for this Relay? Thanks for the help

12/10/2004, 01:26 PM	#112
mtndavid Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lawernce KS. Posts: 8	I don't want to be a nay sayer, but I want to mention that you should be extremely care when doing you own design and build on electrical devices. It is great to do and I do it all the time. This is somthing to thing about, most of the commeercial electric devices that are purchased are UL listed ie they are tested by an indepant lab for the use that they are designed for, the lab then says it is ok for the use they tested it for, if you are using it in its intended use and it failes the company is liable, with electricity fire can be started very easly as some have found out. My point here is if you build somthing and use and it fails and a fire burns your house down and they find out that a home made piece of equipment caused the fire they might not honor the insuance policy. Agian I dont want to spoil the jun in DIY but please be careful it doent take alot to cause a fire, just be safe and do like most of you are test your design and retest it.

12/16/2004, 01:36 AM	#116
Alpha179 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 5	Thanks for confirming my wiring. I figured that I had the correct idea, but wanted to be sure before I actually wired this and applied power. This DIY project rocks. I just finished wiring it up and set it up on my current tank. I added a Green LED for when it is running on house power and a Yellow LED for battery power. I tested it and it gave me 8.2 hours running both main pumps, 2 RIO 2700s for water flow, and the RIO 600 that runs the protein skimmer. I have all kinds of ideas for this backup system (alarm backup, emergency lighting etc.) Thanks again. Alpha179

12/16/2004, 08:09 AM	#117
grochmal Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 647	You're welcome. There's nothing more satisfying than seeing your own handywork in action. __________________ Jeff Current Tank Info: 125 gallon bare-bottom reef, 6' Maristar light, Tunze streams, 55 gallon sump, ASM G3 skimmer, RDSB

02/18/2006, 05:30 AM	#118
fishtk75 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: PA Posts: 1,530	Does anyone still have a copy of this project pic's and details and wiring? I click on the links and the pic,s showing how to's and this will not come up for me.

02/18/2006, 05:31 AM	#119
fishtk75 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: PA Posts: 1,530	Does anyone still have a copy of this project pic's and details and wiring? I click on the links and the pic,s showing how to's and this will not come up for me.

02/18/2006, 05:31 AM	#120
fishtk75 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: PA Posts: 1,530	Does anyone still have a copy of this project pic's and details and wiring? I click on the links and the pic,s showing how to's and this will not come up for me.

02/18/2006, 06:44 AM	#121
musicsmaker Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ravenna, OH Posts: 3,059	Dave is still around on RC, but I'm not sure if he is watching this thread anymore. I would PM him and see if he still has the old shots. He is a good guy and a good reefer as well. He pitches in more than his fair share in this hobby, and I'm sure he would be glad to help you if he can. __________________ "The best threads rest with The Ancients..." - The Ancients.

02/18/2006, 09:01 AM	#122
Playfair Premium Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Rochester, NY USA Posts: 2,307	Thanks, Musicmaker! How can I fail to respond to an intro like that? I had been hoping this thread would eventually fade out, as in hind sight, I probably shouldn't have posted a project with the inherent risks of messing with line AC... I finally did some digging in the archives to find the original pictures since the ISP links died. Here is a re-post with the original context. "The main unit is in the basement, with only an outlet box in the cabinet." "This outlet has a cord that plugs into the main GFI, and routes power through 2 legs of 4 conductor wire down to the UPS. Either house current is sent back up, or it is switched over to inverter power." "Here's a top view of the backup" "The heart of the system is a transfer switch that consists of a relay normally energized with house power, and when that is absent, it turns on the 300w AC power inverter, and sends that power back up to the outlet." "There are a few other bells in there, like a test switch, audible alarm, and indicator lights." __________________ "Anything worth doing, is worth OVER doing" Current Tank Info: 7 gal mini-bow

02/18/2006, 10:32 AM	#123
Shivaji Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Radford, VA Posts: 369	Thanks Dave. I started at the beginning of this thread 15-20 minutes ago, and had to come to the every end to finally see what the project looked like, as all the pictures were gone. Very nice - a real professional looking job !!! Couple of questions - since I have your attention. Where did you get the inverter, and could you also post the schematics ? Thanks again, I am looking forward to getting back to using a soldering iron again after some 30 years ... __________________ Shivaji Samanta Current Tank Info: On hiatus - "tankless" for now.

02/18/2006, 11:13 AM	#124
musicsmaker Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ravenna, OH Posts: 3,059	I got my inverter at either Lowes or Home Depot. Can't remember for sure. __________________ "The best threads rest with The Ancients..." - The Ancients.

02/18/2006, 11:45 AM	#125
BlitzK Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 957	Maybe not so ~4 yrs ago, but Walmart or Harborfreight has better prices on inverters these days... 8-)