automatic water change

[Sacohen]

I might take you up on that. I work up in Pompano so maybe after work one day.

There are a lot of things I'm planning on doing, so I don't know where this falls on my list of priorities.

Right now it seems to be getting the RO/DI system set up and running.
Tired of going to the LFS every other weekend to get water.
I always wind up buying something I can't afford right now.

[DRThompson]

Np, I'm off most Thursdays and Fridays. Also would be glad to help with the r/o if you need

[acesq]

Originally Posted by DRThompson

Please post a link to your build, would be interested to follow it.

I'll be starting a build thread soon in the large tank forum. I've put so much time in the build, I haven't had much left to start the thread. Thanks for your interest.

[Bilk]

Originally Posted by DRThompson

bought mine from uswatersystems dot com. They had a closeout sale on a double head pump. Even though I bought it thru uswatersystems it was drop-shipped from the Stenner factory (in Jacksonville, fl) directly to my house. I'm assuming they have a deal with Stenner to help clear out overstocked items from time to time. Just checked, the listing is gone and they are now running "pre-thanksgiving" specials. The same pump "100dm4" is now $379! Guess I got a good deal

Glad I saw your post last week in the Large Tank forum. I ordered one that day at the bargain basement price

Like you, I feel if I have a controller, why put a system in place that cannot be controlled by the master controller that everything else runs thru. I should get it sometime early this week and will post some impressions and the configuration to my build thread. I was looking at a single head Stenner for ATO, but not at those prices

[DRThompson]

I'm glad you got in on that deal/steal!

Found a single head stenner on ebay for $100. Going to use that as my ATO from the garage once I get it.

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by AquamanE

Dr, now you and Matt have drawn me in. Im going to start planning this myself also.

Ide like to know more about pump options. My Apex sits in a closet behind my tank, many of you have seen it. I already have the plumbing to discard the water outside. So the pump will need to draw clean water from my garage, maybe 30 feet away, the waste will go from sump a few feet away and out my outdoor plumbing.

Pump options please.

So, to clarify, you want to pump the water from your garage to your tank for a daily water change? Can you run 1/4" tubing from your garage to your tank or the closet behind your tank?

[Sacohen]

DRThimpson how far of a run do you have? I think you said 35' and it goes up onto the attict? I have the same situation, but I'm not sure I'm going ti drain and fill simultaneously. For done reason I like to drain then fill, but I'm looking for a pump that can handle the head pressure from the garage floor to the ceiling (1 story)

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by Sacohen

DRThimpson how far of a run do you have? I think you said 35' and it goes up onto the attict? I have the same situation, but I'm not sure I'm going ti drain and fill simultaneously. For done reason I like to drain then fill, but I'm looking for a pump that can handle the head pressure from the garage floor to the ceiling (1 story)

All three (liter meter, stenner pumps, and masterflex/cole parmer pumps) will easily handle that head pressure.

My dual head stenner pump sits at the ceiling of my garage, approx 35' tubing run from my tank and 9' vertical above the sump, and is still able to pull the water from my sump! Stenner Specs say it can pull up to 25' vertically and push 60'+

Also, the HP stenner pumps are high pressure pumps meaning they can pump against up to 100psi of pressure. The HP pumps are designed to push chemicals into an active irrigation pipe or pool pipe(I bought regular pump which is rated to 25psi)

[AquamanE]

Originally Posted by DRThompson

So, to clarify, you want to pump the water from your garage to your tank for a daily water change? Can you run 1/4" tubing from your garage to your tank or the closet behind your tank?

Yes. I saw your other reply with "head" specs so it likely can handle my demand easily.

Why did you get the 25psi, if 100 psi is same price?

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by AquamanE

Yes. I saw your other reply with "head" specs so it likely can handle my demand easily.

Why did you get the 25psi, if 100 psi is same price?

The deal was only for the model I bought, didn't give me a choice. Even though I bought it on "clearance" it was still drop-shipped directly from stenner. Anyway, the hp isn't really needed for our application. Can't tell you how impressed I am with these pumps.

The best price I've found lately is $319 free shipping for any of the dual head low pressure models. For the $300-400 price you can buy any of the three set ups I was comparing.

Eddie, you are welcome to stop by and look at it. I could have done the same thing with a used masterflex or liter meter. I think for the money any one of these three are a better option than the genesis renew product.

[letoan]

How often does the Stenner pump need service? I'm tired of calibrate and service the LMIII.

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by letoan

How often does the Stenner pump need service? I'm tired of calibrate and service the LMIII.

Stenner recommends to replace the tubing every 6-12 months depending on usage. I figure tubing should last at least a year with my usage. They supplied an extra set of tubing in the box so I'm good for at least 2 years. No priming or calibration required.

They publish a service manual you can download and there are a ton of videos showing easy things like how to replace the tubing to how to rebuild the motor. Nearly every part can be replaced on these pumps, you should never need to throw this pump out.

[MattM3]

So basically, this specific type of pump takes the same amount of water out of your tank that it puts into your tank?

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by MattM3

So basically, this specific type of pump takes the same amount of water out of your tank that it puts into your tank?

Yes, these dual head pumps use one motor to turn 2 heads at the same rate. I've been running it since Friday and it's changed out about 8 gallons. I checked my salinity again today and it hasn't budged. As long as I keep water in the 55gal barrel in my garage, this thing will keep changing 2 gal/day. I Suppose I could put in a float to stop it if the barrel runs dry.

[Biggar]

Great write up.

Question:
Do you think its better to do 30 one gallon water changes a month vs. one 30 gallon?
I know it would create more stability, but would it take the same amount of nutrients out?

[Sacohen]

Originally Posted by Biggar

Great write up.

Question:
Do you think its better to do 30 one gallon water changes a month vs. one 30 gallon?
I know it would create more stability, but would it take the same amount of nutrients out?

Why wouldn't it?

[DRThompson]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/

no significant difference, see article

[DRThompson]

From the article:

How to Perform Water Changes

There are many ways to perform water changes, and some of these are outlined below.

Large batch water changes: These changes are what most aquarists think of as water changes - remove some aquarium water and replace it with new water. Reef aquarists often talk of changing 10-30% per month this way. These changes can be completely manual, using buckets and siphons. They can also be partially or almost completely automated. Some systems allow aquarists to open and close appropriate valves (or turn on appropriate pumps), and pumps take care of the actual removal and addition of water.

In doing batch changes, aquarists should consider the changes in the water parameters that will result, and be sure they do not excessively stress organisms. Differences in salinity and temperature are most likely to be significant, and the larger the change, the more stressful it can become for the aquarium's inhabitants. If there is substantial ammonia in the new water, as there may be in artificial salt water or possibly in natural seawater that has been stored for a while, that can also be stressful. Obviously, any organisms that become exposed to the air can also be greatly stressed. Differences in other water parameters are less likely, in my opinion, to be particularly stressful during water changes, with the possible exception of certain trace elements which may be more toxic in raw artificial seawater when not bound to organics than after they have had a chance to become bound in the aquarium or in natural seawater. The normally encountered differences in calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, nitrate, phosphate, silica, pH, etc., are unlikely to unduly stress organisms during water changes up to 30-50% using natural seawater or aerated artificial seawater, in my opinion.

Small batch water changes: These changes are similar to the large changes above, but are much smaller and are done more frequently. Daily changes of 0.25% to 2%, for example, can be used. One could also do a series of consecutive small water changes on the same day. This method ensures that organisms near the top of the aquarium are not exposed to the air, and that water parameter shifts are less sudden. These types of changes can be done in a variety of ways, such as by removing water via a skimmer and replacing it once a day, or by simply taking out an amount (such as a half gallon) and replacing it once a day (automatically or manually). While lots of smaller changes (say, 30 changes of 1% each) are slightly less efficient than one larger one (30% in a single batch), the difference is small (30 changes of 1% each exactly matches one 26% batch water change), and consequently other factors of convenience or stress on organisms may be more important.

In doing batch water changes of 2% or less, aquarists need not particularly worry about the changes in the water parameters that will result, as long as the new water is of reasonable quality. For example, a 1% change with new water at 55°F from a basement reservoir will change the aquarium temperature only from 81°F to 80.74°F. Differences in salinity are also unlikely to be significant.

Continuous water changes: Continuous water changes, despite their name, are not necessarily performed every minute of every day. The distinguishing feature of these changes is that water is added at the same time that it is removed. The actual rate of addition can be high or low. Reef aquarists (myself included) most often perform these types of water changes with two matched pumps, one that removes the old water and one that adds the new water. Often these pumps are part of the same mechanism (such as two sets of tubing on a peristaltic pump or two heads on a diaphragm pump), but that is not a requirement. I use a dual head diaphragm pump capable of a maximum of 30 gallons per day for each head (a Reef Filler pump from Champion Lighting). In my setup, once I have a 44-gallon trash can full of new salt water, all I do to perform a 44 gallon or smaller water change is plug in the pump. The wastewater is sent down the drain. Sometimes I change 44 gallons in one shot, taking about a day and a half. Sometimes I pump for a few hours at a time, and then wait for a few days.

These changes are slightly less efficient than single batch water changes of the same total volume. A continuous water change of 30% exactly matches one batch 26% water change. As with very small batch water changes, these have the advantage of neither stressing the organisms (assuming the change is done reasonably slowly), nor altering the water level in the aquarium. The ease of doing such changes automatically also makes it far more likely that busy or lazy aquarists will actually do them.

Conclusion

Water changes are a good way to help control certain processes that serve to drive reef aquarium water away from its starting purity. Some things build up in certain situations (organics, certain metals, sodium, chloride, nitrate, phosphate, sulfate, etc.), and some things become depleted (calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, strontium, silica, etc.). Water changes can serve to help correct these imbalances, and in some cases may be the best way to deal with them. Water changes of 15-30% per month (whether carried out once a month, daily or continuously) have been shown in the graphs above to be useful in moderating the drift of these different seawater components from starting levels. For most reef aquaria, I recommend such changes as good aquarium husbandry. In general, the more the better, if carried out appropriately, and if the new salt water is of appropriate quality.

Calcium and alkalinity, being rapidly depleted in most reef aquaria, are not well controlled, or even significantly impacted by such small water changes. In order to maintain them with no other supplements, changes on the order of 30-50% PER DAY would be required. Nevertheless, that option may still be a good choice for very small aquaria, especially if the changes are slow and automatic.

[lighthouze08]

Originally Posted by AquamanE

Nice pumps guys.

Curious though: Why use these $$ pumps? Cant a LiterMeter do the same thing? Dont they also have the ability to add extra heads?

Considering something like this myself so curious.

i have a masterflex that i use for feeding the calcium reactor. it has been running 24 hrs/day 365 days a year nonstop for over a year, that's why i decided to get another one for water change. These thing are built like a tank, i checked the tubing on it after 6 months and it looked fine, i replaced it anyway for safety reason but i bet you could go a year on it without replacing.

[FlyboySMB]

Do you run a mixing pump in your SW storage tank continually or only to mix the SW?

[mrx66699]

Originally Posted by FlyboySMB

Do you run a mixing pump in your SW storage tank continually or only to mix the SW?

Have a 1500gal container that we share with NSW and it has a circulation pump that runs periodically and air stone that runs 247 .....thats before it gets to his house

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by FlyboySMB

Do you run a mixing pump in your SW storage tank continually or only to mix the SW?

I have a separate 55gal container below it for mixing. I really should put a small pump in the water change barrel to keep things circulated though. As Mrx mentioned I currently use natural seawater.

[MattM3]

Great read. Thanks!

[DRThompson]

Well, it's been a week since I started the automatic water change-AWC. The dual head stenner pump has changed out about 14gal total. Other than checking salinity I havnt really done anything. My salinity has held at 1.026 SG (digital refractometer). However, I've noticed a drop in ALK. The NSW i'm using for the water changes has low alk; i've had to bump up my alk dosing a little to compensate. Other than actually feeding the 1/4" tubing thru my attic it's been a pretty easy project. I look forward to NOT having to do water changes in the future!

ATO NOW IN GARAGE:

On another note, I bought a single-head stenner pump on ebay and set it up as my ATO from the garage. This was planned for; I ran one extra 1/4" tubing line when I was setting up the water change system. I was going to plumb it directly to my R/O storage barrel but decided I wanted to keep dosing kalk in my ATO. I ended up moving the ATO 10gal container from the closet behind my stand to the garage. Now I'm not longer invading the closet (wife likes that) and I dont have to carry buckets from my garage to the closet to refill the ATO container.

[mrx66699]

looking good.....where are we on water supply ....Im thinking of a refill