LARGE skimmerless systems

[CrayolaViolence]

While I know nano tanks are often skimmerless, often relying on water changes to maintain water quality, I am curious to know how many people have successfully run large skimmerless tanks of 100+ gallons?
How often did you do water changes? What was your average percentage of water change at a time? Did you use macro algae refugiums to maintain water quality? How long was the tank successful.

Thanks so much.

[f3honda4me]

If you get a solid ATS you should be fine going skimmerless.

[deputydog95]

Better question is... With the technology available now why wouldn't you want to run a skimmer?

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[billdogg]

A ran a system of ~300g total volume (150DT/120g refugium/50g sump) without a skimmer for about 20 years. It was home to a 4' Gymnothorax Undulatus that ate everything else I ever tried to put in with him. The first 15 or so was without the fuge, and nitrates were consistently untestable (high out of range) before water changes, after a 40% change they would come down to testable, but still be in the 80+ range. Algae problems? You have no idea what hair algae is! After adding the 120 fuge (with 6" DSB) the nitrates dropped to barely detectable within about 6 weeks and stayed there. My water change schedule remained the same throughout - ~40% every 6 weeks or so.

So - can you run a large system without a skimmer? Sure. But as asked by the above poster, why would you? My excuse was no spare $$$ for a large enough one to do any good, and with the addition of the refugium, no real need.

Now, both my 120DT/40b sump and my frag system with 60g FT/100g sump are happily running skimmers and doing just fine.

[CrayolaViolence]

I would like to do it because I want to.

[deputydog95]

You could also ride a bicycle in the rain to work, but who would?

What are the upsides to not running a skimmer? Other than saving 3-500 bucks....

Awesome screen name BTW. I have no idea what it means but it makes me smile every time I see it

[CrayolaViolence]

Originally Posted by deputydog95

You could also ride a bicycle in the rain to work, but who would?

What are the upsides to not running a skimmer? Other than saving 3-500 bucks....

Awesome screen name BTW. I have no idea what it means but it makes me smile every time I see it

I already have a system with no skimmer on it, but it's only 40 gallons. This will be 120. I maintain it with a 2 gallon water change once a day at least 6 days a week usually 7.

I just want to do it. I mean, why climb Mnt Everest? But people do. And yeah, people do ride their bike in the rain to work. I work at home, so I guess this is as close as I'll get to riding to work in the rain.

Thanks for the compliment on my name. It doesn't really mean anything, it just seems like a good name for a mad artist.

[deputydog95]

It's your tank! Go crazy with it 👍

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[saf1]

If you haven't already, use the search with in the forums. There are a few threads out there with large systems that do not run a skimmer. As to the person said with all the technology why wouldn't you? Money like you noted, longer term power bill, another thing to adjust, clean, and that could wear out or break over time. It really comes down to what how your tank is set up.

If you design and build the tank without having a skimmer in mind it can be done. No big deal. Just means you are going to keep a different set of corals more than likely and fish say compared to something heavily stocked or keeping tougher water requirement corals say like SPS. Soft and LPS corals are the first place I'd start. Then I'd look at some of the fish around those corals bio types. Also find fish that are also useful has part of your clean up crew.

I've had two 29 gallon bio cubes and a 40 breeder without a skimmer but all soft and LPS corals. But that is what I like. I've also had a 100 gallon that was without a skimmer for about 2 years before I bought on. Now I'll use that same skimmer on my 240 more than likely. But search since I don't have the links handy - a few really nice looking tanks without a skimmer should return via search.

[Timfish]

Besides my thread here on RC, http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...ht=skimmerless
Here's two videos of a 500 I setup:
https://youtu.be/UjMFWHC4uBM
https://youtu.be/ZwrMDTGfYKo
Technically it had an algae refugium but algae growth pretty much stopped during the 2nd year.

As far as the reasons for not using a skimmer research shows it dramatically alters the microbial populations from what's normal on reefs. It selectively removes only a portion of DOC (what's that addage "Don't do anything you can't test for"). And while the skimmer manufacterers like to say "New and Improved" They still do not have a metric to show how well a skimmer works like we have for lights (PAR, Kelvin) or pumps (gph, pressure head). And Feldman, et al, did research 7-8 years ago that showed "bubbles are bubbles" and identified two different metrics the skimmer industry could use.

[LeJeune981]

A buddy of mine has 2 tanks.. Not sure the sizes... But both over 100 gallons.. And both up for over 20 years... No sump.. No skimmer... No fuge... Just hob filters and wave makers... Said he has only had the tanks crash twice.. Due to something he did.. Not the tank... And a 10 percent water change per month... I have a picture of one tank.. It's FULL Of coral and fish

My goal is skimmer less too

[CrayolaViolence]

Originally Posted by saf1

If you haven't already, use the search with in the forums. There are a few threads out there with large systems that do not run a skimmer. As to the person said with all the technology why wouldn't you? Money like you noted, longer term power bill, another thing to adjust, clean, and that could wear out or break over time. It really comes down to what how your tank is set up.

If you design and build the tank without having a skimmer in mind it can be done. No big deal. Just means you are going to keep a different set of corals more than likely and fish say compared to something heavily stocked or keeping tougher water requirement corals say like SPS. Soft and LPS corals are the first place I'd start. Then I'd look at some of the fish around those corals bio types. Also find fish that are also useful has part of your clean up crew.

I've had two 29 gallon bio cubes and a 40 breeder without a skimmer but all soft and LPS corals. But that is what I like. I've also had a 100 gallon that was without a skimmer for about 2 years before I bought on. Now I'll use that same skimmer on my 240 more than likely. But search since I don't have the links handy - a few really nice looking tanks without a skimmer should return via search.

Yes, and many of the reasons you stated I have read on other build threads and articles. How the only reason to use a skimmer is often a picture of a cup of skim mate and the question, do you want this in your tank. The question for most is no, when it should be yes, because what's being removed is beneficial bacteria.

I realize skimmerless seems a bit odd to some, but honestly I've had better growth and color on my tank which has no skimmer than the one with the skimmer. I have to wonder if there isn't some truth to the idea removing too many nutrients is just as detrimental. And as you stated, there is no way to measure nutrients in the water and there are no ways for skimmer manufactures to tell you what and how much they are removing.

I'm confident this will work, however it won't be a fast build. I will have to establish my macro algae first and foremost. I'm going to cure my rock in tank as well, this will provide lots of junk for the macro algae to get started!

I realize this is unconventional, but I've seen several nice skimmerless tanks. I still don't have an idea how much I should do in daily water changes though. would a 2% daily change be enough?

[Timfish]

Originally Posted by CrayolaViolence

. . . I will have to establish my macro algae first and foremost. I'm going to cure my rock in tank as well, this will provide lots of junk for the macro algae to get started!

I realize this is unconventional, but I've seen several nice skimmerless tanks. I still don't have an idea how much I should do in daily water changes though. would a 2% daily change be enough?

I would be careful adding macros. Here's a paper showing how they compete with corals:
http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/...message=remove
If you want to use macro algae cheato and halimeda produce the least amount of DOCs.

What has been overlooked by the algae scrubber enthusiasts is algae and corals are competitors, both pull ammonia and DIC (alkalinity) from the water for photosynthesis.

There's also in this discussion the mistaken perception the colloquial terms "SPS", "LPS" and "softies" indicate husbandry requirements when nothing could be farther from the truth.

[Andrew D]

I run a big skimmer on my 700G predominately sps system but since I replaced the lights my ATS has been going crazy and my skimmer the opposite. In fact, I've not drained the collection container in months. For me, the benefit of continuing to run the skimmer is the oxygen it adds not the DOC's it removes.