Silent and Failsafe Overflow System - Page 103

TheFishMan65 · 10/26/2010, 09:54 AM

revival without building a box I would say you are stuck. With a box you can do a Herbie or Bean.

Geauz, if you use the return as a return then the Herbie is out for you. And how many holes?
- 2 drilled holes
or
- 1x 1.5" drain and 2x 3/4" return holes (which I read as three)
I would look into a Bean design which needs three drain holes and maybe add a fourth for return or come over the top.

uncleof6 · 10/26/2010, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by revival

Would i need more holes in the tank? My tank is currently up and running and kicking myself that i didnt find out about these quiet systems till everything was done

With the tank running, there is not much that you can do to improve it. The silicone, would not be safe to use with the tank running, and you really should not try to drill a running tank.

For your system, the two holes could be used for returns, an internal "weir" with holes through the back could be put in between the existing holes, then external if wanted for additional plumbing for a siphon system as surgeon suggested, or with a wider internal (front to back) run the standpipes directly out the back of the tank like the original design. But again, you really don't want to try this with the tank up and running.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1

http://www.beananimal.com/projects/s...ow-system.aspx

scbrooks87 · 10/26/2010, 10:12 AM

Ok, so I got everything up and running, man am I excited! Only one problem, and I'm pretty sure I know what's causing it from reading, I just would like to verify that I'm correct before I go to the hardware store...

My siphon line works perfect, and is setting the level for my open channel, here's where the issue is... My open channel is silent for a few seconds, then I can hear it starting to pull some water, more, more, then ploosh!

I figured maybe change the ratio to take more into the siphon, but when I do that, it ends up flushing the box...

I think this means I need a larger air hole for the open channel yeah? I am using 1.25" pipe for that, and my air line is .25" ID.

The sucking of the water means it's not getting enough air to fill the channel down the center, so it's trying to replace it with more water and creating a partial siphon yeah?

Thanks!
-Scott

uncleof6 · 10/26/2010, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geaux xman

Please Help! I'm getting a 150g 60x30x20 rimless from Miracles. Havent started the build yet, so i'm looking for suggestions. Also looking to keep this simple(my 1st tank with an overflow).

I was quoted:
Internal 3 sided rectangular overflow centered on back panel
2 drilled holes

Should I just stick with that? or do 1x 1.5" drain and 2x 3/4" return holes ?

Will an eheim 1262 pump serve my purposes? my sump with be a 40g breeder directly underneath the tank.

Thanks!

You may want to do some more reading before you go with the setup you mention. The systems we are discussing here are more efficient in terms of performance, than traditional overflow boxes with a couple holes in the bottom. Doing the "traditional" overflow that was quoted will shoehorn you in terms of space for using a siphon system, and 3/4" bulkhead holes will be a bit small for your tank size--even if they are used for returns from the sump.

Since you are having a custom tank built, you have a blank canvas, and it would be a shame to downgrade to dursos or a herbie system, when you can do a calfo C2C, with the drain system that is the subject of this thread.

Follow the links in my previous post. I would go into more detail for you, but I got a busted wing, and one finger typing is too slow--- I suppose some will be glad of that

IMO, the eheim 1262 is too small for this size tank, maybe something like an Ocean Runner OR 6500. 40 breeders are a good sump tanks, but I think you may be cramped for space if you want a 10% of system volume (15 gallon) sized "fuge"

uncleof6 · 10/26/2010, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scbrooks87

Ok, so I got everything up and running, man am I excited! Only one problem, and I'm pretty sure I know what's causing it from reading, I just would like to verify that I'm correct before I go to the hardware store...

My siphon line works perfect, and is setting the level for my open channel, here's where the issue is... My open channel is silent for a few seconds, then I can hear it starting to pull some water, more, more, then ploosh!

I figured maybe change the ratio to take more into the siphon, but when I do that, it ends up flushing the box...

I think this means I need a larger air hole for the open channel yeah? I am using 1.25" pipe for that, and my air line is .25" ID.

The sucking of the water means it's not getting enough air to fill the channel down the center, so it's trying to replace it with more water and creating a partial siphon yeah?

Thanks!
-Scott

The 1/4' tubing should be plenty, sounds like you are missing the adjustment point, (a gate valve allows finer adjustment) or your airline is too low in the overflow box and the open channel is going to siphon before the system stabilizes just a guess.

RocketSurgeon · 10/26/2010, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

I'm moving mine farther down from the t, and I'm swapping it out with a gate valve. the ball valve is too hard to make minuscule adjustments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncleof6

The 1/4' tubing should be plenty, sounds like you are missing the adjustment point, (a gate valve allows finer adjustment)

I concur.

geaux xman · 10/26/2010, 10:54 AM

uncle,

I dont have another 6" plus of room in the back for all that PVC. This tank is going in my bedroom, so i'm already scarce on space. Plus all that PVC would take away from the rimless look?

another guy from a local board suggested me:
1-1.5"drain and 1-1.0" return.

said he uses the eheim 1262 and it works out great for his 150g. noiseless too.

I really dont know what to think. Comments?

1-1.0" return hole is definitely a no go???

this 150g will be for the most part FOWLR.

scbrooks87 · 10/26/2010, 11:41 AM

Hmm, So the water level right now is perfectly stable, didnt move all night in the overflow box, which is why I thought maybe I didnt miss the "sweet spot"

The wooshing sound in the open channel doesnt flush the external overflow, it just seems like it's building up water in the open channel rather than flowing freely, then once it builds up enough, it drains out, and starts that over again... could it be that the open channel's exit is too deep in the sump's water? it's only a couple inches deep into the sump's water, dunno if that would effect it or not.

Thanks!
-Scott

RocketSurgeon · 10/26/2010, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geaux xman

uncle,

I dont have another 6" plus of room in the back for all that PVC. This tank is going in my bedroom, so i'm already scarce on space. Plus all that PVC would take away from the rimless look?

another guy from a local board suggested me:
1-1.5"drain and 1-1.0" return.

said he uses the eheim 1262 and it works out great for his 150g. noiseless too.

I really dont know what to think. Comments?

1-1.0" return hole is definitely a no go???

this 150g will be for the most part FOWLR.

A key point to the 3 drains = failsafe! Only one drain is no where near failsafe. Sure it can handle lots of flow, till catastrophe happens; and it will.

RocketSurgeon · 10/26/2010, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scbrooks87

Hmm, So the water level right now is perfectly stable, didnt move all night in the overflow box, which is why I thought maybe I didnt miss the "sweet spot"

The wooshing sound in the open channel doesnt flush the external overflow, it just seems like it's building up water in the open channel rather than flowing freely, then once it builds up enough, it drains out, and starts that over again... could it be that the open channel's exit is too deep in the sump's water? it's only a couple inches deep into the sump's water, dunno if that would effect it or not.

Thanks!
-Scott

If I understand the concept correctly, there should be only enough water in the open channel to "trickle" down. If there is more water than that in the open channel, Open the siphon channel more. The "sweet spot" is easiest found with a gate valve.

JTL · 10/26/2010, 01:19 PM

I have an Eheim 1262 on my 110g with a 40g sump and it is maxed for flow to the point that I won't even divert water from the return to the refugium, what saves me is the MP40 to move some water around in the DT.

sunsetSPS · 10/26/2010, 02:08 PM

If I currently have 1 durso standpipe in my overflow. Can I just add one more siphon pipe and leave the existing durso standpipe as tuning as well as emergency purpose? What I mean do I need the third emergency pipe?

RocketSurgeon · 10/26/2010, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunsetSPS

If I currently have 1 durso standpipe in my overflow. Can I just add one more siphon pipe and leave the existing durso standpipe as tuning as well as emergency purpose? What I mean do I need the third emergency pipe?

Not as long as you don't have an EMERGENCY.

I have all 3 drains. I currently only use the siphon except at startups. The open channel stays dry. With the return pump I'm using, I don't think the emergency will ever see water unless I purposely close off both the other drains. With this said, I still have it. For the EMERGENCY.

Go ahead and do a search of who has had water on the floor. You'll want the EMERGENCY drain.

Many have used a single 1" or 1.25" drain for years and have not had a problem.

The BeanAnimal design was built upon safety. The open drain has and EMERGENCY drain. Similar to carrying 2 spare tires. Will you ever NEED the second spare, hopefully not, but you have it anyway.

sunsetSPS · 10/26/2010, 02:27 PM

thanks for reply. If so even I just add one siphon it would be much safer than just one durso standpipe as it is right now, even the siphon got stuck completely the durso will handle the water as it is right now. Believe or not I don't think that many people if not any would have "emergency" pipe when they are using durso standpipe.

RocketSurgeon · 10/26/2010, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunsetSPS

Believe or not I don't think that many people if not any would have "emergency" pipe when they are using durso standpipe.

And I'm the only person I know that carries two spare tires, and a portable 12v air compressor for my truck.

JTL · 10/26/2010, 02:40 PM

It is all about redundancy, but certainly two is better than one and three is even better.

sunsetSPS · 10/26/2010, 03:19 PM

Agree. As it described, the second pipe (with tube) is used to regulate the level of water in the overflow box (so in sump), little water flowing through this pipe all the time is an ideal condition. The third one (emergency) is not in used in normal operation and fully dedicated for "EMERGENCY" only.
This seems to be solution for noise of overflow water rushing into the sump, I still have to resolve the noise of waterfall from tank to the overflow box, this is loud too.

teesquare · 10/26/2010, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketSurgeon

And I'm the only person I know that carries two spare tires, and a portable 12v air compressor for my truck.

Perhaps some new tires, and a newer truck would solve that dilema?

JK!!!!!

T

RocketSurgeon · 10/26/2010, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teesquare

Perhaps some new tires, and a newer truck would solve that dilema?

JK!!!!!

T

I've been told (more than once) that it is easier to steer if all 4 tires are on the ground instead of in the air! But that is probably left best for another thread entirely.

My water flowing into my overflow is silent. Perhaps you have more flow than linear space allowed.

TheFishMan65 · 10/26/2010, 04:14 PM

Or the drop is too large. If so you can adjust the water height with the valve on the siphon. Of course the open and emergency may need to be raised in order to raise the water level.

sunsetSPS · 10/26/2010, 04:52 PM

I have Oceanic Tech and their overflow design isn't good. It has a step in the overflow after the teeth and water splashing to that step and falling down with noise. The water level has to be high enough in the overflow box for this noise to be minimal; however, keeping water high in the flow box is hard as I used their overflow box cover and so there is no room to raise the standpipe higher, also having higher level in overflow box would be easy to get into the emergency situation too.

tinkerman · 10/27/2010, 10:07 AM

I have a question that I think I know the answer to already but want to make sure it is the right answer. I have 3 1 in bulkheads right now that go into 1 1/2 in on the back of the tank, it is an in tank overflow. I would like to get rid of the in tank and do external and be able to reuse the bulkheads and hole saw I already have. So do I have to use 3/4in elbows and up to 1 in to the sump, or can I use all 1 in and make it bigger below the overflow and down to sump? I'm just not sure where you have to enlarge the pipe to allow for the air space. The y pipe is what is confusing me.

tinkerman · 10/28/2010, 05:41 PM

Anyone. Please and thank you.

RocketSurgeon · 10/28/2010, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinkerman

Anyone. Please and thank you.

I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about, but the greatest amount of flow is only available through your smallest diameter pipe, similar to a chain is only as strong as the weakest link.
If you enlarge a 1" coupling to 1.5" pipe, you are still restricted to the 1" coupling. I'm not sure you are gaining much.

TheFishMan65 · 10/28/2010, 08:12 PM

Tinker, i was confused this morning and apparently not the only one. Maybe a picture?

10/26/2010, 01:19 PM	#2561
JTL Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Venice Island, FL Posts: 2,532	I have an Eheim 1262 on my 110g with a 40g sump and it is maxed for flow to the point that I won't even divert water from the return to the refugium, what saves me is the MP40 to move some water around in the DT. __________________ John 100 gallon DT and 50 gallon sump with refugium. Reefbreeders Photon V2+.

10/26/2010, 02:40 PM	#2566
JTL Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Venice Island, FL Posts: 2,532	It is all about redundancy, but certainly two is better than one and three is even better. __________________ John 100 gallon DT and 50 gallon sump with refugium. Reefbreeders Photon V2+.

10/26/2010, 09:54 AM	#2551
TheFishMan65 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,618	revival without building a box I would say you are stuck. With a box you can do a Herbie or Bean. Geauz, if you use the return as a return then the Herbie is out for you. And how many holes? - 2 drilled holes or - 1x 1.5" drain and 2x 3/4" return holes (which I read as three) I would look into a Bean design which needs three drain holes and maybe add a fourth for return or come over the top.

10/26/2010, 10:12 AM	#2553
scbrooks87 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 206	Ok, so I got everything up and running, man am I excited! Only one problem, and I'm pretty sure I know what's causing it from reading, I just would like to verify that I'm correct before I go to the hardware store... My siphon line works perfect, and is setting the level for my open channel, here's where the issue is... My open channel is silent for a few seconds, then I can hear it starting to pull some water, more, more, then ploosh! I figured maybe change the ratio to take more into the siphon, but when I do that, it ends up flushing the box... I think this means I need a larger air hole for the open channel yeah? I am using 1.25" pipe for that, and my air line is .25" ID. The sucking of the water means it's not getting enough air to fill the channel down the center, so it's trying to replace it with more water and creating a partial siphon yeah? Thanks! -Scott

10/26/2010, 10:54 AM	#2557
geaux xman Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 3,279	uncle, I dont have another 6" plus of room in the back for all that PVC. This tank is going in my bedroom, so i'm already scarce on space. Plus all that PVC would take away from the rimless look? another guy from a local board suggested me: 1-1.5"drain and 1-1.0" return. said he uses the eheim 1262 and it works out great for his 150g. noiseless too. I really dont know what to think. Comments? 1-1.0" return hole is definitely a no go??? this 150g will be for the most part FOWLR.

10/26/2010, 11:41 AM	#2558
scbrooks87 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 206	Hmm, So the water level right now is perfectly stable, didnt move all night in the overflow box, which is why I thought maybe I didnt miss the "sweet spot" The wooshing sound in the open channel doesnt flush the external overflow, it just seems like it's building up water in the open channel rather than flowing freely, then once it builds up enough, it drains out, and starts that over again... could it be that the open channel's exit is too deep in the sump's water? it's only a couple inches deep into the sump's water, dunno if that would effect it or not. Thanks! -Scott

10/26/2010, 02:08 PM	#2562
sunsetSPS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 355	If I currently have 1 durso standpipe in my overflow. Can I just add one more siphon pipe and leave the existing durso standpipe as tuning as well as emergency purpose? What I mean do I need the third emergency pipe?

10/26/2010, 02:27 PM	#2564
sunsetSPS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 355	thanks for reply. If so even I just add one siphon it would be much safer than just one durso standpipe as it is right now, even the siphon got stuck completely the durso will handle the water as it is right now. Believe or not I don't think that many people if not any would have "emergency" pipe when they are using durso standpipe.

10/26/2010, 03:19 PM	#2567
sunsetSPS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 355	Agree. As it described, the second pipe (with tube) is used to regulate the level of water in the overflow box (so in sump), little water flowing through this pipe all the time is an ideal condition. The third one (emergency) is not in used in normal operation and fully dedicated for "EMERGENCY" only. This seems to be solution for noise of overflow water rushing into the sump, I still have to resolve the noise of waterfall from tank to the overflow box, this is loud too.

10/26/2010, 04:14 PM	#2570
TheFishMan65 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,618	Or the drop is too large. If so you can adjust the water height with the valve on the siphon. Of course the open and emergency may need to be raised in order to raise the water level.

10/26/2010, 04:52 PM	#2571
sunsetSPS Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 355	I have Oceanic Tech and their overflow design isn't good. It has a step in the overflow after the teeth and water splashing to that step and falling down with noise. The water level has to be high enough in the overflow box for this noise to be minimal; however, keeping water high in the flow box is hard as I used their overflow box cover and so there is no room to raise the standpipe higher, also having higher level in overflow box would be easy to get into the emergency situation too.

10/27/2010, 10:07 AM	#2572
tinkerman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Moorhead,MN Posts: 386	I have a question that I think I know the answer to already but want to make sure it is the right answer. I have 3 1 in bulkheads right now that go into 1 1/2 in on the back of the tank, it is an in tank overflow. I would like to get rid of the in tank and do external and be able to reuse the bulkheads and hole saw I already have. So do I have to use 3/4in elbows and up to 1 in to the sump, or can I use all 1 in and make it bigger below the overflow and down to sump? I'm just not sure where you have to enlarge the pipe to allow for the air space. The y pipe is what is confusing me.

10/28/2010, 05:41 PM	#2573
tinkerman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Moorhead,MN Posts: 386	Anyone. Please and thank you.

10/28/2010, 08:12 PM	#2575
TheFishMan65 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,618	Tinker, i was confused this morning and apparently not the only one. Maybe a picture?