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12/05/2017, 09:55 AM | #1 |
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Price of DIY LED lamp vs Brand
Is it cheaper to go the DIY route on a LED lamp? Let's say I wan to make my own HYDRA 26 HD, how much would it cost vs the real one?
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12/05/2017, 10:12 AM | #2 |
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It is absolutely going to cost MORE money to build your own if you account for your time spent and likely even if you don't..
Just the time required to duplicate the software functionality will likely be more than the cost of a light..
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12/05/2017, 10:35 AM | #3 |
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It also depends on what you mean when you say you want to make something "like" a commercial unit. People have very very wide interpretations of what constitutes something being "like" something else.
If you are willing to throw away your time, and you're good with DIY, and you invest time in learning, and you have reasonable requirements, and you're willing to potentially compromise on things like fit and finish, etc then you definitely can DIY an LED fixture cheaper than a high end brand name commercial fixture. You can likely get similar output and functionality but it likely won't be a direct equivalent. That said, I do not feel that cost is a good justification for DIY. You will be way in the hole if you account for your time spent, or the tools and knowledge required. And you will definitely be in the hole if you attribute any value to customer support. When your Hydra dies, you have someone to be mad at, someone to hold accountable. When your DIY rig dies, it's all up to you. You should DIY because you want something you can't buy off the shelf. You should DIY because you have odd requirements or you have ideas for improvements that aren't in commercial units. You should DIY because you want to easily experiment with different colors of LED or different optics or you want some other flexibility without having to void a warranty. You should DIY because it's fun and it's a way to have a sense of pride in your system. You should not DIY to save money.
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12/05/2017, 12:43 PM | #4 |
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Still new to reef but not light diy. A hydro 26 equivalent that is resonably easy to assemble would look like:
Rapid led heatsink 40+s/h 2-3 48watt pucs from blue acro 110-165 Drivers 30-40 Bluefish mini controller 100 ( cheaper options available but if you want to duplicate functionality this is only simple game in town) Power supply 20-40 So 290-375 for first light. Prolly can save 100 per light after the first since you don't need to duplicate the bluefish mini. Could maybe save on the LEDs with a more manually put together array but not a ton. |
12/05/2017, 01:26 PM | #5 | |
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12/05/2017, 02:11 PM | #6 |
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There.. well throw out enclosure for free air as well..
Trick is to, sadly, be more expensive than the cheapest but actually be cheaper than "the best".. Which all involves some compromises..and good shopping.. Like Bluefish mini vs cheap PWM pots.. $100 vs $3.. |
12/05/2017, 02:57 PM | #7 |
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12/05/2017, 03:45 PM | #8 |
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W/ 50 @3W Royal Blue emitters on star bases for $10 straight from China..
Also (preferred) @ 10pcs PHILIPS LUMILEDS LUXEON Rebel ES 3W Royal Blue 450nm~455nm High Power LED for $12.... you have to work hard to screw up.. To do quality DOES push the limits but your reward is one built "your way".. to be honest the main "wrench in the works" is heat sinks and controllers.. Rest is a pittance for the most part.. Then again one can blow the budget wide open... Last edited by oreo57; 12/05/2017 at 04:01 PM. |
12/05/2017, 08:19 PM | #9 |
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Time is a tricky one to value though. I mean if I don't build something it's not like I would make that money by getting a job for those hours I'm not at my other job. So rather put a dollar amount on time I would say "would I rather be doing something else with that time?"
To the OP just start a price list in Excel on parts. Then you can scrimp or spend more based on your desires in a light. I will say building 1 is definitely more expensive than 1/2 of building 2. Very often you can use drivers or psus across multiple fixtures
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12/05/2017, 10:10 PM | #10 |
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Don't forget about IOS/Android apps, bluetooth, wifi and all of that.
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12/05/2017, 11:41 PM | #11 |
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OK to more directly answer the op's question and using what I consider premium parts and some improvements and some not so improvements over a Hydra 26.
This is going to be a bit shortened w/ note.. Drivers/Driver board/power supply(24V, 200W)/diodes/ and lenses...... $168 Improvements: No green but substitute cyan. Deeper UV A but costly (adds $20/2 diodes) Placement and density is my choice Subtractions:Only 5 channels so "bridged" UV/violets and blue/cyan Leaving $182 for the rest.. So the main parts left out is the heat sink and control.. Heat sink.. 6"x20" Black anodized w/ hanging kit.. $70 TC-421 (modified) for 5 ch 5v pwm WiFi /app $32 (Substitute windows tethered tc0420 $19) $270............. w/ some compromises..like 8 bit dimming and crazy Chinese apps.. No time is not considered (I never bill myself for a hobby) Nor thermal adhesives, wire, fitting, plugs though did throw one in the power supply for $4... so lets say.. I saved $50.. Adding a 92mm fan and a voltage regulator (24-12V) another $13.. So saved $37.. No, don't consider shipping .. kind of like a soldering gun.. just a must have .. Savings point.... No expensive 365nM UV chips .. switch to 410 or so Savings:$12. Probably would go cheap on the regular blue Savings: $10 Probably stick w/ TC-420 wired Savings: $13 Total $72 less than a Hydra w/ "savings".. Cost me that in man hours figuring all this out.. I'm worth it.. (just kidding) numbers are as real as I can get.. diodes alone were $84.20.. Could be lowered to around $28 w/ little loss in quality.. so "Hydra-like" for $250 That was a lot of work..... Last edited by oreo57; 12/05/2017 at 11:48 PM. |
12/06/2017, 01:01 AM | #12 |
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55 leds...yikes that is a lot of soldering loool. giving me the shakes thinking about it.
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12/06/2017, 03:24 PM | #13 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
I would build a light the very same way (well - not out of hardwood lumber). I would build it to the best of my ability without worrying about final cost.
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12/06/2017, 04:04 PM | #14 | ||
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Blaming bean counters ans sub-standard engineering/parts.. just not my thing.. Knowing 10% of anything (at the least) is prone to failure and stealing of my hard earned money.. I'd rather like to know how to fix it myself... IF one needs to fix something it is RARELY cheaper having someone else do it.. If a diode fails.. I replace it.. $3.. screw the time. I'd waste more packing/shipping and fighting w/ warranty repair fine print.. Quote:
do you bill yourself for hours of tank maintenance? Like I said $/hr should never be a factor in this decision at least for me.. Probably have lights worth 10 of thousands w/ that kind of thinking.. as many go through revisions at a whim... Freedom!.. .. is not cheap. Last edited by oreo57; 12/06/2017 at 04:12 PM. |
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12/06/2017, 04:13 PM | #15 |
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If you can fix it right the first time, then I totally agree. If you cause failures with inexperience or have to re-fix a fix, then you will be behind the game with time and money. If any of this is "fun" then who cares... go for it and enjoy yourself.
DIY is not hard I do a lot of my own stuff, but I have made mistakes too and not every project or fix comes out ahead - I just replaced a bad Turbo on my BMW 750li and the new one was bad as well... the time to do it twice was probably not worth it for this one repair, but in the long list of car fixes that I have done, I am well ahead. I was pretty hard on myself when I butchered my first repair job, but the lessons are excellent about humility, patience and attention to detail that can last a lifetime. I am pretty handy and I don't know if I would dabble into this as a first project... and I have fixed all kinds of vintage and tube audio (McIntosh mostly), have a o-scope and am handy with a soldering gun. FYI - based on a bunch of conversations with Dana Riddle, I would absolutely spend money on those 365nm diodes and use a handful of them for very good coverage. Also, far red up to 850nm to help with energy absorption. |
12/06/2017, 04:15 PM | #16 |
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Nope - I went with 2 x AI Sol blues for my DT and a pair of kessil A360w's for the frag tank. There are some things that are just not worth the cost to DIY (at least for me - I can rewire a house, upgrade the service panel, etc), but have no desire to DIY lights. Especially now, with so many good choices available I just don't see the need.
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I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer |
12/07/2017, 12:14 PM | #17 |
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This subject seems to come up from time to time.
Maybe 5 years ago or more, it would be feasible to DIY an LED fixture. But not anymore, costwise that is. And the DIY will look ugly and not have the refined look of a Radion or Hydra. If the light is not hidden inside a canopy, it will be the second most visible item after the tank itself. So you want it to look nice or aesthetically pleasing. If you are patient, you can find an excellent condition used Hydra 26HD for between $250-$300. Having said that, I still encourage DIY, more for the learning and discovery process. There are not enough makers in this hobby. (perhaps people in this hobby have a lot of cash and spend it like it will go out of style). |
12/07/2017, 10:54 PM | #18 |
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This is really a personal preference and opinion. The way I see it DIY is always cheaper and won't be more expensive anytime soon. This is a hobby so adding in the labor cost is a bit premature. I guess you can if you take your hourly rate but it really isn't the right thing to do unless you do that for other day to day tasks you perform on the tank like water changes, power head cleaning, etc. Yes, time is money....but again it is a hobby.
Cheaper is also subjective. Off the shelf name brand products like say Kessil will start at or around what, 240 US dollars? Radion are starting around 650'ish? Lets talk Mitras starting around 600 or so? If anyone has the time, patience, willing to learn, and DIY technical skills you will always, and I mean always, be able to produce quality lighting for cheaper. The main key is patience and shopping around. People are making some serious multi chip solutions in small package forms that don't require large heat sinks. Pair them up with a nice driver, power supply, and you can have 4 high output lights, with uniform coverage, 4 channel dimming capability, for a fraction of the cost. Maybe it won't have a built in controller but is that necessary if you already have a controller? Maybe it won't have a clean form factor. Is that necessary if it is under a hood? I get all the wiz bang gadgets they offer but most people on this sub forum already have a controller so dimming is already a done deal... So for me it is a matter of if what I can build offers similar lumens / watts, spectrum coverage, intensity, control, and finally price. Not saying I'd need 4 but lets say I buy 4 of the Radions noted above at 650 a pop. That is 2,600 bucks. No thank you, I'll pass. I can buy 4 single multi chips, drivers, power supply, wire, and heat sinks for 400. Then if I need more fine tune it by adding a bar or another pair and still be under 600. Yeah no, DIY is cheaper.
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12/07/2017, 11:02 PM | #19 | |
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12/07/2017, 11:03 PM | #20 | |
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Fun and Pride - good choice of words.
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12/08/2017, 05:33 AM | #21 |
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If you truly enjoy the build process and/or have unusual requirements, then diy makes perfect sense.
If you are doing it to save money, that theory went out the window about 5 years ago and is even less important today. You can buy very good basic 16" leds for $100. You can get good sunrise/sunset control in a 16" for $250. You can get all that plus 6 channel color control, a remote programming ability and a killer slimline aluminum case for $under $400. And 32" and 48" fixtures are even a better value.
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12/08/2017, 09:37 AM | #22 |
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this is misleading, as you are not comparing apples to apples.
In a previous thread, another person who did diy led also insists it is cheaper and not ugly, then posts a picture of his work. man, was it fugly. but I guess if you made it yourself, objectiveness goes out the window. and no it is not a personal choice since the stated objective is to save money (refer to post #1 of this thread). If that was not the objective,and instead it was for learning, then yes, it becomes a choice. |
12/08/2017, 09:44 AM | #23 |
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and writing good, refined software/firmware is no small task, and not something anyone can just pick up and learn and do.
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12/08/2017, 09:54 AM | #24 | |
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The sentence you quoted was more intended to address the fact that a good commercial unit will come with a warranty and an assumption of good customer service. If my kessil dies a fee weeks after I bought it, I can make a phone call and a new one will show up on my porch. If my DIY rig dies, I have to find time in my busy schedule involving kids, work, and travel to sit down, diagnose, order parts, and do the repair. Hobbies are meant to be fun. I like to participate in hobbies by choice, when and how I want to. That's the value of a warranty and good customer service, it gets you out of the "on call" role. It's not about cost or skill, it's about having my life interrupted. Im not trying to blow this out of proportion, I'm just trying to explain because you seemed to slightly misinterpret my post.
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12/08/2017, 09:58 AM | #25 | |
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I don't want to come off as discouraging DIY. I think people should DIY if they want to. I just feel that if someone new to LED DIY for reef tanks decided to give it a try purely because they think they'll save money, they will be disappointed.
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