Have ICH looky here!!!!! - Page 5

ryan scott · 01/05/2009, 09:05 PM

I had to pull everything out of my tank to catch all of the fish, but i think it will be well worth the effort!

All fish have been out now for 4 weeks and i will not put them back in until another 2 weeks.
I have had ich for a long time now and am looking forward to it been gone for good.
i have tryed all of these others methods and they dont work long term, such as i have cleaner wrase which do not eat white spot, i have had cleaner shrimps that cost over $100 aus and they made a great snack for some of my fish.

I will qt everything in the future

WaterKeeper · 01/06/2009, 12:45 PM

Ryan.

Aquarist007 · 01/06/2009, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan scott
I had to pull everything out of my tank to catch all of the fish, but i think it will be well worth the effort!

All fish have been out now for 4 weeks and i will not put them back in until another 2 weeks.
I have had ich for a long time now and am looking forward to it been gone for good.
i have tryed all of these others methods and they dont work long term, such as i have cleaner wrase which do not eat white spot, i have had cleaner shrimps that cost over $100 aus and they made a great snack for some of my fish.

I will qt everything in the future

good show Ryan

have you been treating your fish while they are out of the tank?

Stuart60611 · 01/07/2009, 02:42 PM

I was just wondering whether anyone has had any experience with Quninine medicines (used to treat malaria in humans) as an ich treatment. Bob Fenner seems to be a big fan of Quinine drugs as a means to treat ich, particularly on fish which are sensative to copper, such as tangs, angels and puffers. Quinine is supposed to be safe for your biological filter. It will kill all photosynthetic algae, corals, and most inverts (have read that hermits seem to be able to tolerate it). It is supposed to be much more gentile than copper and now the prefered treatment by public aquariums. Also, since it is supposed to not effect the biological filter, it could I think theoritically be used in a FOWLR display without any live rock (just base rock) or live sand safely so as to rid the display also of ich. I do not know if it is safe to use with ammonia removers, like prime. I have read that it is not absorbed substantially in the rock and substrate and is easily removed through skimming and carbon. I have also read that the medicine breaks down rapidly with strong light so you need to keep you lights low during treatment. Unlike copper and hypo, the way it works is it kills the parasite when the parasite attaches to the fish b/c the fish absorbs the medicine and the parasite dies immediately upon feeding off of the fish and eating the medicine absorbed in the fish. As such, it seems to me that the treatment could be very useful on saving a very sick fish b/c the medicine should provide very quick relief to sick fish in that I would think it would cause the ich on the fish to die quickly. The treatment protocal suggested by Fenner is a single treatment of 10mg/L for 10 days. It is reportedly not harmful to the fish. I would think that a single treatment in the display would not be effective b/c new cists would hatch after the 10 days and re-attach to fish who no longer would have the quinine in their bodies. Perhaps, though, several treatments would do the job if you kept your fish medicated with quinine long enough for all cists in the system to hatch (21 days or so). Fenner has indicated that it is an option for display tank in some circumstances. Any thoughts?

WaterKeeper · 01/07/2009, 04:29 PM

Hi Stuart,

I tried it a some years ago, around 1998 I think, on a badly infected tank without much success. It did have some adverse effect on the LR but did not cure the infection on the fish in an FO tank. I believe the dose was far less than 10 ppm and somewhere around 0.5 or 1. Higher doses may work but I've never tried it that high. Since it can't be used in the display I tend to stick with older methods until someone comes up with a reef safe medication. I'd be interested to know if it is safe and effective for fish, however.

Stuart60611 · 01/07/2009, 04:40 PM

Waterkeeper:

Thanks for the response. However, Fenner seems to suggest that it can be use in the display in situations where you do not have live rock or live sand, corals, substantial algae, or inverts. Not sure if this is accurate, but I read several postings of his in which he recommended that someone treat their display with quinine.

WaterKeeper · 01/07/2009, 04:57 PM

That is a REAL FO system that Bob envisions.

Stuart60611 · 01/07/2009, 05:04 PM

I agree. But if the system consisting of only base rock and a dead sandbed, I do not think there would be much of a difference. I guess the dead base rock and dead sand could develop a small amount of fauna over time, but unless the system was at some point seeded with live rock or live sand I would imagine not much fauna would develop. I think the concern with the quinine in the display would be the resulting die off of fauna and corresponding ammonia spike. However, in a FOWLR, most aquarists could care less about the fauna and would be only concerned about the ammonia spike that could result from the fauna dying after dosing quinine. As such, it would be great to know if an ammonia remover could be used in conjunction with quinine which would be useful to control any ammonia spike from any fauna die off.

MotherFish · 01/07/2009, 06:09 PM

I applaud and support any new attempts at combatting marine Ich and have tested out several products that promised to be a "magic bullet" to no avail... including quinine-based meds after reading about some new copper-resistant strains showing up a couple of years ago.
Unfortunately, non that I have tried were successful in the long run.

Some meds were good at ridding the fish of visible signs of infection quickly, but never removed the parasites entirely from the system.

So far the only two oldschool methods that have worked successfully for me, including copper-resist strains, have been hyposalinity at 1.009 for 6+ weeks, and the tank transfer method (TTM).
TTM involves moving the infected fish to a clean tank every 3 days for 12 days (4 moves).
This allows the trophonts to finish feeding and exit the fish after 3 to 7 days (Colorni, 1985. Colorni & Diamant, 1993) without allowing them to encyst on the substrate and hatch into new free-swimming parasites.

For the home aquarist, hypo is preferable as you only need room for one QT and the display must remain fallow for 6-8 weeks anyway.
For processing fish quickly thru holding tanks into general population for resale or breeding, TTM is the fastest way.

Stuart60611 · 01/07/2009, 06:28 PM

Motherfish:

Interesting to hear that the quinine did not work for you. How did you treat and which med did you dose? I have read quite a few recently made posts from Fenner and several other moderators on wetwebmedia recommending the use of Chrloroquin diphosphate (virtually impossible to get without prescription but the most effective), Chloroquin phosphate (difficult but obtainable from several on line sources and nearly as effective as the diphospate), and quinine sulfate (pretty effective but not as effective as the other two but easily obtainable from National Fish Pharmaceuticals). They claim it is very effective for ich with a high sucess rate. It just strikes me that these are some of the more knowledgeable people in the hobby who are making these claims so I would like to think that there is something behind the effectiveness of the treatment.

ryan scott · 01/08/2009, 06:31 AM

yep treated with cooper for 14 days

WaterKeeper · 01/08/2009, 07:32 AM

Stuart,

I don't think anyone was questioning Bob Fenner's claims. When I tried it the dose was far lower than what he is using. It was also claimed it was reef safe back then but wasn't at even low dosage. I think Motherfish didn't have much luck with it but didn't say the dosage level used. No treatment works 100% of the time, and that includes copper and hypo, so it would be unfair to say quinine is not a useful treatment. If its use were more widespread I would have included it in this sticky but results so far are limited and more successful cures need to be reported. That holds true for TTM. It is just not in widespread use, as of yet, but does sound promising. Both treatments may prove effective in the near future.

MotherFish · 01/08/2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stuart60611
It just strikes me that these are some of the more knowledgeable people in the hobby who are making these claims so I would like to think that there is something behind the effectiveness of the treatment.

Hi Stuart,

Please don't get me wrong. I have the highest regard for Bob Fenner and am very grateful for his work and the WWM resources.
I am just stating what has worked for me personally and don't doubt for a moment that others have had success in areas or with methods where I've failed.

I tried an OTC quinine sulfate med, followed the recommended dosage and time in QT. The treatment looked to work great in the beginning, but after a couple of months the telltales of Ich were starting to show again.
That was my limited experience with quinine for Ich.
If I continue to hear positive results from others in the future then I would be willing to give it another shot, but for now I'll just stick with what's worked best for me.

jenglish · 01/08/2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Stuart,

I don't think anyone was questioning Bob Fenner's claims. When I tried it the dose was far lower than what he is using. It was also claimed it was reef safe back then but wasn't at even low dosage. I think Motherfish didn't have much luck with it but didn't say the dosage level used. No treatment works 100% of the time, and that includes copper and hypo, so it would be unfair to say quinine is not a useful treatment. If its use were more widespread I would have included it in this sticky but results so far are limited and more successful cures need to be reported. That holds true for TTM. It is just not in widespread use, as of yet, but does sound promising. Both treatments may prove effective in the near future.

I was under the impression that the TTM was fairly established method as far as efficacy just not used much in the hobby due to the space requirements. Is it not that well established?

WaterKeeper · 01/08/2009, 06:50 PM

Being old Jeremy; unless Mose invented it I don't jump on the band wagon.

jenglish · 01/08/2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Being old Jeremy; unless Mose invented it I don't jump on the band wagon.

Back before the dead sea was even sick?

No I really thought they were using TTM back in the 70s it was just more of a PITA than most people were willing to deal with. I could be wrong since I wasn't around for the 70s

WaterKeeper · 01/08/2009, 09:02 PM

I was but I guess I missed it. Not much about it on the web back then.

Aquarist007 · 01/08/2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Being old Jeremy; unless Mose invented it I don't jump on the band wagon.

Mose?
Do you mean this guy(Mose Schrute)

or this guy (Moses)

Doesn't matter --they are both a little "ichy"

michellejy · 01/13/2009, 09:32 PM

Sorry if this was mentioned before. I'm being too lazy to go back and read 5 pages of this thread.

I had a foxface in quarantine who spent a couple of days hiding motionless inside a piece of PVC. When he finally opted to reveal himself, I was horrified to see him literally covered with ich spots. I'd never even seen ich before, and my new fish was like the ich poster child! I'd read that due to their thick slime coats, rabbitfish are a bit less likely than other fish to get ich, but lucky me, I hit the rabbitfish ich lottery!

Or so I thought....

I kept observing him, and he wasn't glancing off of rocks or displaying any of the other behaviors associated with ich. It turns out that his thick slime coat was good for attracting something. He was actually covered with tons of tiny microbubbles that had easily remained attached since he wasn't swimming very much.

So before you go crazy with treatments, make sure you are treating for an actual problem.

Aquarist007 · 01/13/2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by michellejy
Sorry if this was mentioned before. I'm being too lazy to go back and read 5 pages of this thread.

I had a foxface in quarantine who spent a couple of days hiding motionless inside a piece of PVC. When he finally opted to reveal himself, I was horrified to see him literally covered with ich spots. I'd never even seen ich before, and my new fish was like the ich poster child! I'd read that due to their thick slime coats, rabbitfish are a bit less likely than other fish to get ich, but lucky me, I hit the rabbitfish ich lottery!

Or so I thought....

I kept observing him, and he wasn't glancing off of rocks or displaying any of the other behaviors associated with ich. It turns out that his thick slime coat was good for attracting something. He was actually covered with tons of tiny microbubbles that had easily remained attached since he wasn't swimming very much.

So before you go crazy with treatments, make sure you are treating for an actual problem.

good points Michelle---and you are correct in quarantining all fish but observing them for a time before you actually treat.
There are some reefers that swear by treating with hyposalination regardless if they observe ich or not.
Others prefer to qt for 4-6 weeks and observe rather then stress out a new fish needlessly. However if the disease is observed in this time frame then qt time 4-6 weeks starts at the onset of the treatment.

ch0ii · 01/29/2009, 07:36 AM

ei mr.waterkeeper.. hi.. according to your methods, can i just quarantine my fish on a hospital tank without copper? but just hyposaline ocean water? (ocean water + distilled water) for six weeks? while changing 20 percent of water everyday? can add some filters on the overhead filter box? and skimmers on it? thank you...

-choy

newbieruss · 01/30/2009, 08:07 PM

so here is a question. couldnt all fish be carriers without even showing symptoms? and if so even after a fish is quaranteened and introduced after this time the ick could still be hosting on the said fish. should i copper treat or hypo treat all new additions?

Aquarist007 · 01/30/2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by newbieruss
so here is a question. couldnt all fish be carriers without even showing symptoms? and if so even after a fish is quaranteened and introduced after this time the ick could still be hosting on the said fish. should i copper treat or hypo treat all new additions?

yes all fish can be carriers--this is why some reefers do treat all fish in the qt regardless if they see it or not.

Aquarist007 · 01/30/2009, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ch0ii
ei mr.waterkeeper.. hi.. according to your methods, can i just quarantine my fish on a hospital tank without copper? but just hyposaline ocean water? (ocean water + distilled water) for six weeks? while changing 20 percent of water everyday? can add some filters on the overhead filter box? and skimmers on it? thank you...

-choy

you can treat with hyposalination
or copper
or both.

For hyposalination to be effective you must bring the salinity down to 1.009. I would really recommend using a refractometer for accuracy.

newbieruss · 01/31/2009, 03:27 AM

capn,
so what is the best way to treat a powder brown tang? i have a spotted sweet lip, an ocellaris clown, two scotts damsels and a mandarin. also if hypo salinity is the best way would a digital salinity pen be accurate enough?

and to get this right, i should treat all new additions as if they had ick and treat accordingly?

01/05/2009, 09:05 PM	#101
ryan scott Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 80	I had to pull everything out of my tank to catch all of the fish, but i think it will be well worth the effort! All fish have been out now for 4 weeks and i will not put them back in until another 2 weeks. I have had ich for a long time now and am looking forward to it been gone for good. i have tryed all of these others methods and they dont work long term, such as i have cleaner wrase which do not eat white spot, i have had cleaner shrimps that cost over $100 aus and they made a great snack for some of my fish. I will qt everything in the future __________________ 620 litre main tank with 150 L sump Aquamedic aqua sunlight 3x 250watt with 4 T5 80watt and moon light on light computer Current Tank Info: 620 litre main tank with a 150 litre Sump

01/06/2009, 12:45 PM	#102
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Ryan. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

01/07/2009, 02:42 PM	#104
Stuart60611 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,979	I was just wondering whether anyone has had any experience with Quninine medicines (used to treat malaria in humans) as an ich treatment. Bob Fenner seems to be a big fan of Quinine drugs as a means to treat ich, particularly on fish which are sensative to copper, such as tangs, angels and puffers. Quinine is supposed to be safe for your biological filter. It will kill all photosynthetic algae, corals, and most inverts (have read that hermits seem to be able to tolerate it). It is supposed to be much more gentile than copper and now the prefered treatment by public aquariums. Also, since it is supposed to not effect the biological filter, it could I think theoritically be used in a FOWLR display without any live rock (just base rock) or live sand safely so as to rid the display also of ich. I do not know if it is safe to use with ammonia removers, like prime. I have read that it is not absorbed substantially in the rock and substrate and is easily removed through skimming and carbon. I have also read that the medicine breaks down rapidly with strong light so you need to keep you lights low during treatment. Unlike copper and hypo, the way it works is it kills the parasite when the parasite attaches to the fish b/c the fish absorbs the medicine and the parasite dies immediately upon feeding off of the fish and eating the medicine absorbed in the fish. As such, it seems to me that the treatment could be very useful on saving a very sick fish b/c the medicine should provide very quick relief to sick fish in that I would think it would cause the ich on the fish to die quickly. The treatment protocal suggested by Fenner is a single treatment of 10mg/L for 10 days. It is reportedly not harmful to the fish. I would think that a single treatment in the display would not be effective b/c new cists would hatch after the 10 days and re-attach to fish who no longer would have the quinine in their bodies. Perhaps, though, several treatments would do the job if you kept your fish medicated with quinine long enough for all cists in the system to hatch (21 days or so). Fenner has indicated that it is an option for display tank in some circumstances. Any thoughts? Last edited by Stuart60611; 01/07/2009 at 03:41 PM.

01/07/2009, 04:29 PM	#105
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Hi Stuart, I tried it a some years ago, around 1998 I think, on a badly infected tank without much success. It did have some adverse effect on the LR but did not cure the infection on the fish in an FO tank. I believe the dose was far less than 10 ppm and somewhere around 0.5 or 1. Higher doses may work but I've never tried it that high. Since it can't be used in the display I tend to stick with older methods until someone comes up with a reef safe medication. I'd be interested to know if it is safe and effective for fish, however. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

01/07/2009, 04:57 PM	#107
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	That is a REAL FO system that Bob envisions. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

01/07/2009, 04:40 PM	#106
Stuart60611 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,979	Waterkeeper: Thanks for the response. However, Fenner seems to suggest that it can be use in the display in situations where you do not have live rock or live sand, corals, substantial algae, or inverts. Not sure if this is accurate, but I read several postings of his in which he recommended that someone treat their display with quinine.

01/07/2009, 05:04 PM	#108
Stuart60611 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,979	I agree. But if the system consisting of only base rock and a dead sandbed, I do not think there would be much of a difference. I guess the dead base rock and dead sand could develop a small amount of fauna over time, but unless the system was at some point seeded with live rock or live sand I would imagine not much fauna would develop. I think the concern with the quinine in the display would be the resulting die off of fauna and corresponding ammonia spike. However, in a FOWLR, most aquarists could care less about the fauna and would be only concerned about the ammonia spike that could result from the fauna dying after dosing quinine. As such, it would be great to know if an ammonia remover could be used in conjunction with quinine which would be useful to control any ammonia spike from any fauna die off.

01/07/2009, 06:09 PM	#109
MotherFish Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 208	I applaud and support any new attempts at combatting marine Ich and have tested out several products that promised to be a "magic bullet" to no avail... including quinine-based meds after reading about some new copper-resistant strains showing up a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, non that I have tried were successful in the long run. Some meds were good at ridding the fish of visible signs of infection quickly, but never removed the parasites entirely from the system. So far the only two oldschool methods that have worked successfully for me, including copper-resist strains, have been hyposalinity at 1.009 for 6+ weeks, and the tank transfer method (TTM). TTM involves moving the infected fish to a clean tank every 3 days for 12 days (4 moves). This allows the trophonts to finish feeding and exit the fish after 3 to 7 days (Colorni, 1985. Colorni & Diamant, 1993) without allowing them to encyst on the substrate and hatch into new free-swimming parasites. For the home aquarist, hypo is preferable as you only need room for one QT and the display must remain fallow for 6-8 weeks anyway. For processing fish quickly thru holding tanks into general population for resale or breeding, TTM is the fastest way.

01/07/2009, 06:28 PM	#110
Stuart60611 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,979	Motherfish: Interesting to hear that the quinine did not work for you. How did you treat and which med did you dose? I have read quite a few recently made posts from Fenner and several other moderators on wetwebmedia recommending the use of Chrloroquin diphosphate (virtually impossible to get without prescription but the most effective), Chloroquin phosphate (difficult but obtainable from several on line sources and nearly as effective as the diphospate), and quinine sulfate (pretty effective but not as effective as the other two but easily obtainable from National Fish Pharmaceuticals). They claim it is very effective for ich with a high sucess rate. It just strikes me that these are some of the more knowledgeable people in the hobby who are making these claims so I would like to think that there is something behind the effectiveness of the treatment.

01/08/2009, 06:31 AM	#111
ryan scott Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 80	yep treated with cooper for 14 days __________________ 620 litre main tank with 150 L sump Aquamedic aqua sunlight 3x 250watt with 4 T5 80watt and moon light on light computer Current Tank Info: 620 litre main tank with a 150 litre Sump

01/08/2009, 07:32 AM	#112
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Stuart, I don't think anyone was questioning Bob Fenner's claims. When I tried it the dose was far lower than what he is using. It was also claimed it was reef safe back then but wasn't at even low dosage. I think Motherfish didn't have much luck with it but didn't say the dosage level used. No treatment works 100% of the time, and that includes copper and hypo, so it would be unfair to say quinine is not a useful treatment. If its use were more widespread I would have included it in this sticky but results so far are limited and more successful cures need to be reported. That holds true for TTM. It is just not in widespread use, as of yet, but does sound promising. Both treatments may prove effective in the near future. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

01/08/2009, 06:50 PM	#115
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Being old Jeremy; unless Mose invented it I don't jump on the band wagon. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

01/08/2009, 09:02 PM	#117
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	I was but I guess I missed it. Not much about it on the web back then. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

01/13/2009, 09:32 PM	#119
michellejy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: OH Posts: 1,076	Sorry if this was mentioned before. I'm being too lazy to go back and read 5 pages of this thread. I had a foxface in quarantine who spent a couple of days hiding motionless inside a piece of PVC. When he finally opted to reveal himself, I was horrified to see him literally covered with ich spots. I'd never even seen ich before, and my new fish was like the ich poster child! I'd read that due to their thick slime coats, rabbitfish are a bit less likely than other fish to get ich, but lucky me, I hit the rabbitfish ich lottery! Or so I thought.... I kept observing him, and he wasn't glancing off of rocks or displaying any of the other behaviors associated with ich. It turns out that his thick slime coat was good for attracting something. He was actually covered with tons of tiny microbubbles that had easily remained attached since he wasn't swimming very much. So before you go crazy with treatments, make sure you are treating for an actual problem. __________________ Michelle Current Tank Info: 30G FOWLR Clownfish tank soon to be replaced by JBJ 28 Gallon Nano

01/29/2009, 07:36 AM	#121
ch0ii Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: philippines Posts: 23	ei mr.waterkeeper.. hi.. according to your methods, can i just quarantine my fish on a hospital tank without copper? but just hyposaline ocean water? (ocean water + distilled water) for six weeks? while changing 20 percent of water everyday? can add some filters on the overhead filter box? and skimmers on it? thank you... -choy __________________ reefers are the best hobbyists! Current Tank Info: 75 Gal marine tank with 30 gal sump with refugium, protein skimmer and a 3,000 Liters per hour return pump 60 watts.

01/30/2009, 08:07 PM	#122
newbieruss Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: calgary alberta Posts: 31	so here is a question. couldnt all fish be carriers without even showing symptoms? and if so even after a fish is quaranteened and introduced after this time the ick could still be hosting on the said fish. should i copper treat or hypo treat all new additions?

01/31/2009, 03:27 AM	#125
newbieruss Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: calgary alberta Posts: 31	capn, so what is the best way to treat a powder brown tang? i have a spotted sweet lip, an ocellaris clown, two scotts damsels and a mandarin. also if hypo salinity is the best way would a digital salinity pen be accurate enough? and to get this right, i should treat all new additions as if they had ick and treat accordingly?