Higher Calcium Level for SPS Growth? (vs Health)

[Peter Eichler]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

I am not disputing that... as i said this is just a guide that we utilise here at the farm, anectode or not it does make some sense and is a good starting point...

At the end of the day it cant hurt and may help....

We have played around with all sorts of parameters with alk from nsw levels right up to 14 dkh nd this formula just seems to work best [for us] then again we are using natural sunlight, we also employ electrolysis and add plant fertiliser for nutrients... so really who knows mabe im a fool with no idea what im doing....

I think it could hurt if PO4 and NO3 are really low and anyone tried to push their alkalinity past 9 dKH. Other than that, you're right and there's probably no harm in following your approach as a guide. Do you have a thread or link with more info about the farm, and the electrolysis in particular? Thanks!

[Spslvr]

Originally Posted by Peter Eichler

I think it could hurt if PO4 and NO3 are really low and anyone tried to push their alkalinity past 9 dKH. Other than that, you're right and there's probably no harm in following your approach as a guide. Do you have a thread or link with more info about the farm, and the electrolysis in particular? Thanks!

there is another thread in sps section titled the farm.

As for the electro thats something we are a bit secretive about for now. I have a thread on rtaw under advanced concepts if you want to browse through it...

Also im not totally convinced that the big three are directly involved in the burnt tips in ulns phenomena my home tanks are all run above 9 dkh and are carbon dosed with ulns and ive never had burnt tips im not convinced alk plays a direct part in this...

[Peter Eichler]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

there is another thread in sps section titled the farm.

As for the electro thats something we are a bit secretive about for now. I have a thread on rtaw under advanced concepts if you want to browse through it...

Also im not totally convinced that the big three are directly involved in the burnt tips in ulns phenomena my home tanks are all run above 9 dkh and are carbon dosed with ulns and ive never had burnt tips im not convinced alk plays a direct part in this...

The burnt tips have been pretty repeatable in my system when alkalinity has gone higher than 9 dKH. The problem has occurred when nitrate or PO4 levels have been undetectable, carbon dosing or not doesn't seem to be a factor either, it's the actual nutrient levels in my experience.

I'll check out the thread on the farm.

Cheers,
Ike

[Spslvr]

Yes i understand that, my po4 and no3 are also undetectable as i said i tend to think its more of a multiple factor type deal some missing minor trace perhapse mabe in conjunction with high intensity lighting and nutrient poor systems then the raised alk..... kinda like the straw so to speak.

Then again i keep my big three in line with the guide i posted before...

Mabe there is something in it..

Without having read through their journals i wonder if triton labs have the same experience with burnt tips..

[Myka]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

I would go A1 and B1. Raise temp to address growth, swing is fine, and feed more while aiming for 0ppm on both. Even if you get slightly above 0ppm, fine, but aim there. Adding more fish, feeding heavy and skimming and perhaps larger water changes would, IMO, fix the issues.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Bill Nye

For sps you want to be putting nutrients in and then aggressively removing.

I think that's one of the biggest SPS "secrets".

Originally Posted by Peter Eichler

The burnt tips have been pretty repeatable in my system when alkalinity has gone higher than 9 dKH. The problem has occurred when nitrate or PO4 levels have been undetectable, carbon dosing or not doesn't seem to be a factor either, it's the actual nutrient levels in my experience.

I have the exact same repeatable experiences.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

Yes i understand that, my po4 and no3 are also undetectable as i said i tend to think its more of a multiple factor type deal some missing minor trace perhapse mabe in conjunction with high intensity lighting and nutrient poor systems then the raised alk..... kinda like the straw so to speak.

I don't doubt that there is some other factor(s) at play that is common in lower nutrient systems. Even with undetectable levels, frequent feedings seem to help prevent the burnt tips. I ran an sps tank for years with undetectable levels of nitrate and a dKH in the 10-12 range and never had a single problem, fast forward to my experiments with carbon dosing several years ago and oversize skimmers on my systems today and it's a big issue if my alkalinity rises beyond a certain level. I've suspected that available ammonium may play a part, but don't have much to base that belief on.

[Spslvr]

Originally Posted by Peter Eichler

I don't doubt that there is some other factor(s) at play that is common in lower nutrient systems. Even with undetectable levels, frequent feedings seem to help prevent the burnt tips. I ran an sps tank for years with undetectable levels of nitrate and a dKH in the 10-12 range and never had a single problem, fast forward to my experiments with carbon dosing several years ago and oversize skimmers on my systems today and it's a big issue if my alkalinity rises beyond a certain level. I've suspected that available ammonium may play a part, but don't have much to base that belief on.

You are correct, with our trialling of plant fertilliser our frags respond really well and in it is a carfully mixed blend of ammonium, phosphorus, nitrogen i think this is a very much underestimated field that will become the norm in a few years..

Apologies to the op we are getting off the beaten track

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

Well for instance if you cal is 450 then times that by 3 for your mag ie 450x3= 1350 so you mag should be 1350 the divide your mag by 15 which = 90 so your alk should be 9.0

So while my new fish go thru quaretine I'm going to try the things suggested in this thread to improve SPS growth and reduce pale colors.
Nothing is drastic or risky.

1) Adjust my Calc, Alk, Mag using the 3x, 15x formula (no drastic Alk change)
2) Tank now running warmer 78-79
3) Started feeding the current fish more. They love it.
3) Plus for now increasing nutrients with overnight feeding of OysterFeast
4) Also early daytime dose of Coral Snow to speed up nutrient export via skimmer so that by time MH lights come on nutrients are lower
(reducing chance of light + Higher nutrients driving algae growth, which I'm terrified of.)
5) Watch NO3 PO4 closely.

I'll post a picture in a week or so to see if any SPS paleness goes away
Another pic a few weeks later to see if any better growth.

May take longer to see any noticeable results. We'll see.

[Spslvr]

Sounds like a plan

[JB NY]

So here are some baseline that I use for my for water parameters.

Alk 8 dKH (I think 8-9 is fine, if you get burnt tip drop it to around 7.5)
Ca 450
Mg 1400

NO3 2-5 ppm
PO4 0.08-0.02

Keep them very stable, like every time you test (the same time of day) the parameters are the same. People overlook how important this is, because it is hard for many to get the tank this stable. This is what we mean when we say the tank should be mature. It means you have everything dialed in, and it never moves. Once you have that good things will happen.

Water flow. Strong currently all around the tank is a very big factor in getting good growth. I have got just as good results with strong water flow as I have with strong lighting.

So to give you an idea of what I am talking about this is two years of growth. The whole tank was started with nothing but tiny 1" frags.



2 years later.


This tank used carbon dosing and GFO heavily. Nitrates always undetectable and Phosphates at under 0.02. The only thing added other than fish food were Salifert Amino Acids.

[Wally.B]

Very Nice tank! (What size is it, to compare fish load to mine)

Would you have a 1 year picture since that is where I am?

You just gave me hope, motivation and a goal.

The only thing missing in my current plan is the carbon dosing. Will consider.

[JB NY]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

Very Nice tank! (What size is it, to compare fish load to mine)

Would you have a 1 year picture since that is where I am?

You just gave me hope, motivation and a goal.

The only thing missing in my current plan is the carbon dosing. Will consider.

One year.



I am not telling you to carbon dose. Despite the pictures I posted, I am now restarting this tank and not using carbon dosing or GFO. I feel that the same or better results can be had without all the hassle of carbon dosing and GFO.

[Wally.B]

WOW!! My frag tank is really behind on growth for 1 year.
Definitely needs adjustments.
(More fish/nutrients appears to be the solution). Since I have everything else in check.

[Myka]

Before you go too crazy feeding - what are you using for a skimmer?

[Wazzel]

Something is holding you back, I got lots more growth than that in my first year, even with having to deal with red bugs.

I run Ca at 430, Alk at 8 and Mg around 1300 (I do not check that often).

I have 6 fish in my 60 so I feed quite a bit more than you, probably.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by Myka

Before you go too crazy feeding - what are you using for a skimmer?

I'm running a EuroReef Skimmer for this 65 Gal Tank. Have had it for over a decade. I believe it is a RS-135, or similar. Rated at avg load 135gal; heavy load 100gal.

It's currently set to skim wet. I empty a semi clear 1/2 cup daily. And clean the thicker build up on the collar.

[Wally.B]

So after 4 days... Of feeding fish double overall (but many more times a day).

And feeding Corals overnight daily, very lightly. Variations of (OsterFeast + [Reef Roids, Coral Frenzy, Aquavitro Fuel] ) ((Note: Coral were never fed before. Ever!))

PO4 still zero.

But NO3 has finally registered on my test kit (first time in a year). Yesterday 0.2, Today 0.1

Other parameters have been rock solid steady:

CA 450
ALK 8.4
MAG 1400
TEMP=78.5-79.0


Corals haven't changed much (possibly a hint darker). No point posting any pictures yet.

Obviously too soon.
Or need to feed nutrients more (which I am ramping up very slowly...to be safe)

All I can say is I have to clean the glass a bit more to have a really clean look.
Also skim is a bit thicker.

And of course, fish really now love me. They now jump every time they see me near the tank.

Made the following modifications today:

1) Adjusted pumps slightly and changed apex timing for better circulation.
2) Increased 250W MH lights on time by 15 mins. Now running 4hrs, 45mins.
3) Added a fresh brightly colored Blue Oregon Tort Frag, to see if it fades over time (like the other corals did over last year).

The 3 small blue/green Chromis's which have been in quarantine tank should be going into tank over the weekend. One by one.

Will report back in a week, or if there is change worth noting.

[JB NY]

I think that changes may take weeks, if not months to notice.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by JB NY

I think that changes may take weeks, if not months to notice.

Understood.

That's the painful part of this hobby.

Bad adjustments hurt things quickly.

Good ones take time.

I've learned to be patient, and also learned to make slow adjustments.
Usually one at a time.

[swk]

I would not add the chromis one by one. The chances are good that you'll end up with the only the first one surviving. The one that has been in the tank the longest will claim the entire tank as his own and will likely kill all the other new additions. Add them all at once would be my advice. 3 small chromis will not impact water quality in a negative way as long as you are careful when feeding for the first couple of days.

Sounds like you're taking good steps! Be careful with expecting quick results. It may take MONTHS before any real change appears, but stay the course!

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by swk

I would not add the chromis one by one. The chances are good that you'll end up with the only the first one surviving. The one that has been in the tank the longest will claim the entire tank as his own and will likely kill all the other new additions. Add them all at once would be my advice. 3 small chromis will not impact water quality in a negative way as long as you are careful when feeding for the first couple of days.

Sounds like you're taking good steps! Be careful with expecting quick results. It may take MONTHS before any real change appears, but stay the course!

Thanks for this tip. I already have a Chromis in the tank. He's been there a while and at least double the size of the 3 I'm planning to introduce. BAD IDEA? (or will adding all 3 at once diffuse his killing efforts)

I was thinking 1 Medium fish. Another Tang. Is that a better choice?

[swk]

If you have a single chromis already, I would definitely add all 3, maybe even 5 and hope for the best.

Do you have any bristle tooth tangs yet? Tomini? They are excellent algae controllers if you're planning on raising nutrients by a bit.

[Icefire]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

2) Increased 250W MH lights on time by 15 mins. Now running 4hrs, 45mins.

4.75 hours of full lights? Mines are 8 hours +...

[Myka]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

Increased 250W MH lights on time by 15 mins. Now running 4hrs, 45mins.

The 3 small blue/green Chromis's which have been in quarantine tank should be going into tank over the weekend. One by one.

I'd be ramping that up to at least 6-8 hours halide time. You should be able to increase by 30 mins per week without ill effects.

For a 65-gallon tank, I'd put all 3 Chromis in at once. The tank is large enough that the bioload increase won't be significant enough to cause any issue, and there will be less aggression if you add same-species fish all in one go.

Also, don't change too many things at once, nor in too quick succession. If you make any changes too quickly, you can pass the point of optimum, reach a point of "too much of a good thing is bad", and you may not know the difference.

One more thing, I'd be inclined to just feed the fish more rather than trying to add any foods to the water for the corals. I've found it to be very easy to pollute the tank when feeding the water column. Fish will eat a lot more than they need. They will eat when they aren't that hungry. Nature has made them this way - if there's food eat it because you don't know when the next bit will come by! So just feed them a bit more, a bit more often. Don't let the food fly around the tank or settle on the bottom, that does no good.

Keep in mind too, that you may need to increase your cleanup crew too. I have a soft spot for Scarlet Hermits, especially with SPS corals since the hermits are able to get into little places that snails can't.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by Myka

One more thing, I'd be inclined to just feed the fish more rather than trying to add any foods to the water for the corals. I've found it to be very easy to pollute the tank when feeding the water column.

I agree. Feeding Corals was just a short term (Early Kick Start) thing till I put the Chromis's in.
Couple more days of Quarantine.

Yes I do have a busy clean up variety crew. Best member is my Diamond Watch Goby who cleans my sand bottom daily.
He raised annoying dust storms at the beginning, but now fine dust is gone.