Higher Calcium Level for SPS Growth? (vs Health)

[Peter Eichler]

Curious as to why the short photoperiod as well...

Also, I would skip introducing the chromis and sell them if you can, as you'll just end up with one eventually anyways. These are not peaceful schooling fish and they will kill each other one by one until only the most dominant one remains.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by Peter Eichler

Curious as to why the short photoperiod as well...

The reason for the shortened Photo period is as follows

A few months ago I converted my fixture from 150W MH, to 250MH.
I was careful to acclimatize slowly (raising lights initially and then slowly lowering).
Was running 6.5 hours photoperiod at the time.

However over a period of time the top side of my several of my SPS corals went white, or intensely pale (but still polyping).
Didn't know the reason, but assumed new stronger bulbs.

So I cut back on lighting again, by raising lights and reducing Photo Period. This helped the corals come back topside.
So at this point I have manage to lower my lights enough, but am still working on increasing Photo period.

I was and am still suspicious from reading posts, that with low nutrients you get super clear water, and combined with that intense lighting can burn your corals.

Sure it could be other things, but the pale topside of each coral, appeared like a shadow cast by light (not burned tips). Thus my theory, and adjustment.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by Peter Eichler

Also, I would skip introducing the chromis and sell them if you can, as you'll just end up with one eventually anyways. These are not peaceful schooling fish and they will kill each other one by one until only the most dominant one remains.

The original reason for choosing Chromis is not that it's my first choice.
It was simply to introduce nutrients slowly.

However hearing that I need to add all at once, and that they are not friendly schoolers, I'm having 2nd thoughts.
They are in quarantine tank, and LFS take back fish (small restock fee).

My rockscape will support two larger fish due to two caves.
I currently have one large Yellow tang, and was leaning toward a Naso tang since tangs are best once I eventually start getting some algae on rocks.

(Currrent fish load is 1xYellow Tang, 1xDiamond Back Goby, 1xMedium Chromis and 1xMandarin Goby).

However a Medium Naso Tang is a big jump in feeding and nutrients. Your thoughts?

[Peter Eichler]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

The original reason for choosing Chromis is not that it's my first choice.
It was simply to introduce nutrients slowly.

However hearing that I need to add all at once, and that they are not friendly schoolers, I'm having 2nd thoughts.
They are in quarantine tank, and LFS take back fish (small restock fee).

My rockscape will support two larger fish due to two caves.
I currently have one large Yellow tang, and was leaning toward a Naso tang since tangs are best once I eventually start getting some algae on rocks.

(Currrent fish load is 1xYellow Tang, 1xDiamond Back Goby, 1xMedium Chromis and 1xMandarin Goby).

However a Medium Naso Tang is a big jump in feeding and nutrients. Your thoughts?

Take the fish back, it will only end poorly if you don't... As for fish, anything under 300 gallons is really no place for a naso. They get really big and will even outgrow 300+ before too long. Get yourself a wrasse or two, maybe a fire figs or one of the more peaceful ORA Pseudochromis. Some of the plankton eating bennies Ora is doing are cool as well, just avoid the grazers...

[Wally.B]

HANG ON !!

1) This whole thread started about my concern about SPS Frag growth after 1 year. (If I could improve things with higher Calcium).

2) It then got a bit sidetracked about coral Pale Colors.

The the topic of Pale colors got into discussion about adding fish to increase nutrients to solve both Growth and Pale Colors.

However tonight when taking my regular photo of the tank, I decide to peek back through time. I jumped back 3 months.

Some frag were added, and some moved around, so I really wasn't paying attention to any particular frag. Just generally concerned that most were not growing fast enough.

Then I noticed one frag I didn't recognize, and realized that it had been growing. Not bad for 3 months I think.
(( Even the color of the frag was fine as seen in first photo. But that could be since it may have been a new add. But 100% sure not the one above it))

This photo comparison below shows what I mean. (Center Frag)



QUESTION. If one frag is growing fine, then are chemical water conditions (Stability, Nutrients) good enough for rest of the SPS corals to grow?

I do track/log my SPS tank religiously. Everything (daily). Every test. Every water change, and every drop of anything added to the tank.

I have been dosing additives, feeding corals, and making lighting changes over this period of experimentation.

I'm going to go through my logs and pictures to get a better understanding, before I make any adjustments at this point. Including adding fish.

Maybe I do have a bunch of really slow growth corals, and also have a pale coral issue.

Sure NO3, PO3 had and is still 0.00 during this time. It could be related to changes in lighting. Not sure, till I check my logs.

Or maybe my frags are not properly placed wrt. to lighting requirements.

I had the right conditions around the month of Februrary. My memory isn't the greatest these days. However my logs and apex have good memory.
I'm doing to figure out what it was.

(My guess is I switch from manual weekly Alk/Calk adjustments, to AutoDosing).
Then I mucked things up with lighting changes. Possibly playing with additives on top. Since fish and nutrients didn't change.

Maybe if I'm really lucky. All I need to do is increase Photo Period and not even have to move corals around much.

Stay tuned. Going to start my history analysis.

[Wally.B]

My preliminary review of Tank Logs, shows I was trying to increase photoperiod around the Feb Timeframe.

That could explains the beginning of the growth spurt.

Then I backed off around Mid March since I was getting white bleaching type effect on topside of the corals. (I raised lights, and reduced photo period at the time)

Reviewing other log details, but at this point will be slowing increase photoperiod. First increase to 5hrs (+30mins).

[g0rilla]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

If you want to raise 1 of the majors you have to raise all of them

this is simply not true...

[Wally.B]

All I plan to do is restore my PhotoPeriod slowly back the level I had with growth (6.0-6.5hrs).
MH lights will remain at their current higher position. They may have been to low last time (and reason for coral whitening topside)

Then I'll continue to increase photoperiod slowly (Max 8hrs or whatever corals can handle), but this time my nutrient levels will be higher.

Also this time as per this thread recommendation, my temp is higher. 78.5-79.

No other factors such as (Alk, Calc, Alk, Mag, Salinity) are going to be changed.
They will simply be kept stable.

[brad65ford]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

HANG ON !!

1) This whole thread started about my concern about SPS Frag growth after 1 year. (If I could improve things with higher Calcium).

2) It then got a bit sidetracked about coral Pale Colors.

The the topic of Pale colors got into discussion about adding fish to increase nutrients to solve both Growth and Pale Colors.

However tonight when taking my regular photo of the tank, I decide to peek back through time. I jumped back 3 months.

Some frag were added, and some moved around, so I really wasn't paying attention to any particular frag. Just generally concerned that most were not growing fast enough.

Then I noticed one frag I didn't recognize, and realized that it had been growing. Not bad for 3 months I think.
(( Even the color of the frag was fine as seen in first photo. But that could be since it may have been a new add. But 100% sure not the one above it))

This photo comparison below shows what I mean. (Center Frag)



QUESTION. If one frag is growing fine, then are chemical water conditions (Stability, Nutrients) good enough for rest of the SPS corals to grow?

I do track/log my SPS tank religiously. Everything (daily). Every test. Every water change, and every drop of anything added to the tank.

I have been dosing additives, feeding corals, and making lighting changes over this period of experimentation.

I'm going to go through my logs and pictures to get a better understanding, before I make any adjustments at this point. Including adding fish.

Maybe I do have a bunch of really slow growth corals, and also have a pale coral issue.

Sure NO3, PO3 had and is still 0.00 during this time. It could be related to changes in lighting. Not sure, till I check my logs.

Or maybe my frags are not properly placed wrt. to lighting requirements.

I had the right conditions around the month of Februrary. My memory isn't the greatest these days. However my logs and apex have good memory.
I'm doing to figure out what it was.

(My guess is I switch from manual weekly Alk/Calk adjustments, to AutoDosing).
Then I mucked things up with lighting changes. Possibly playing with additives on top. Since fish and nutrients didn't change.

Maybe if I'm really lucky. All I need to do is increase Photo Period and not even have to move corals around much.

Stay tuned. Going to start my history analysis.

Looking at your first photo i would not say your corals color and or health was all the good regardless it (that one especially) kept growing. Regardless of your thread start subject I would strongly look at lowering your lighting intensity and photo period aside from looking at all your premature and nutrients which is a given. Not sure if you have a par meter but they are great tools. For some reason I believe corals have an easier time coming back to health by lower lighting then increasing nutrients if the nutrients are low. Once you have some color back in them you can increase your lighting but imo why would you if they have good color and health Don't be fooled by everyone mentioning on these forums how bright and intense their lightning is. Most of us have been successful running lower lightning.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by brad65ford

Looking at your first photo i would not say your corals color and or health was all the good regardless it (that one especially) kept growing. Regardless of your thread start subject I would strongly look at lowering your lighting intensity and photo period aside from looking at all your premature and nutrients which is a given. Not sure if you have a par meter but they are great tools. For some reason I believe corals have an easier time coming back to health by lower lighting then increasing nutrients if the nutrients are low. Once you have some color back in them you can increase your lighting but imo why would you if they have good color and health Don't be fooled by everyone mentioning on these forums how bright and intense their lightning is. Most of us have been successful running lower lightning.

Your point makes sense to me, and kind of the direction I was going originally back in Feb.
(lowering light intensity, photoperiods), since I thought I was harming corals with too strong lights.

I'll hold off on the lighting change increases. Possibly a tad lower. And purely get back to focusing on nutrients, to improve health and color.

I don't have a par meter, however I do have a LUX meter (Milwaukee MW700).
I regret getting the cheaper meter, since I can't measure true PARS, even though there are formula's to convert.
This link was provided but I find a bit confusing http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/equipment
All I can use it for is to compare light levels within my tank areas. Not set my lights for proper coral Par recommendations.
If anyone can recommend how to use it. Please pass on any info.

[brad65ford]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

Your point makes sense to me, and kind of the direction I was going originally back in Feb.
(lowering light intensity, photoperiods), since I thought I was harming corals with too strong lights.

I'll hold off on the lighting change increases. Possibly a tad lower. And purely get back to focusing on nutrients, to improve health and color.

Don't know your system size etc.. but how many fish do you have? Remember just feeding food will not feed corals as well as the fish peeing and pooping which converting the ammonia process quicker then food braking down, mind you thats if you have enough denitrification ability .

[Piper27]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

Yes i understand that, my po4 and no3 are also undetectable as i said i tend to think its more of a multiple factor type deal some missing minor trace perhapse mabe in conjunction with high intensity lighting and nutrient poor systems then the raised alk..... kinda like the straw so to speak.

Then again i keep my big three in line with the guide i posted before...

Mabe there is something in it..

Without having read through their journals i wonder if triton labs have the same experience with burnt tips..

I was under the impression they use iron supplements or something along those lines to keep their tips from burning? This would be a good thread to start on the topic if anyone knows about it so we don't clog the op's thread.


OP I would add more fish, I would take out the large chromis before adding a lot of small ones, this would end up with one much quicker. Although peter is right and you will most of the time end up with just one, a large tank with well fed fish can keep a nice school of chromis for years fairly easily. My experience is one a year will go missing at best. Some of your corals look really pale. I am sure you will get it figured out soon.

[Myka]

What do you have in your tank for flow? I don't think you've mentioned this. Those pics you showed, the corals don't look happy in any of the photos.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by Myka

What do you have in your tank for flow? I don't think you've mentioned this. Those pics you showed, the corals don't look happy in any of the photos.

Tank flow should be good at this point.
I made adjustments over the last year, since it was quite poor, when it started off by running on a Mag 2 (250GPH) return only (with a Sea Swirl).

Current setup for this 65 Gal tank:

Return Pump: Mag 9.5 @3feet (740 GPH) via Sea Swirl (Return Maxed out)
Circulation Pump1: Hydor Koralia (1500 GPH) Apex Cycled.
Circulation Pump2: Hydor Koralia (1500 GPH) Apex Cycled.
Circulation Pump3: Tunzee Nanostream (476 GPH) Apex Cycled.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by Piper27

OP I would add more fish, I would take out the large chromis before adding a lot of small ones, this would end up with one much quicker.

I returned the set of small chromis fish today for a credit note. Will be looking for different fish.

As above. (Currrent fish load is: 1xYellow Tang, 1xDiamond Back Goby, 1xMedium Chromis and 1xMandarin Goby)

[Wally.B]

Just throwing this out there.....

Since I have a low nutrient issue (it appears), and I'll do anything to turn these frags around, would getting a ZeoVit system on this tank be a recommened option?

Sound like a lot or work going with ZeoVit maintenance. However it has been a lot of work & adjustments to figure things outs.

Not considering that route yet, since I can't give up trying the direction I'm going (more fish). But the system is on sale for 40% off this month.

The reason for this ask is I've been baffled with this first SPS tank over the last year.
(Especially after getting, Better Lighting, Improved Circulation, Good nutrient export, Proper Maintenace and Parameters really stable)
My frags when bought had color. Which faded over time, and turned brown. Which I have been told (browning) is due to feeding corals.
Then at the same time, I have corals that are pale, so that appears to be lack of nutrients.
So why do I have both conditions (darkening brown, and fading pale). And of course, slow growth.

Is it all about having enough quality nutrients (like fish waste), VS less-valueable (coral food additives)? After all other things are in check.

[Wally.B]

I'm slowing down extra fish feeding, since I may have over done things.
Stopping Coral feedings of Oyster feast.

One pump had a coating in redish, cyano looking algae today. Scared me big time.
Never seen this before in this tank.

Nothing on sand, rocks or Corals..

Assume tank needs to adjust bacteria levels to handle increased nutrients.
Changed Carbon. Turned up skimmer.

Go to be careful.

[ndrwater]

Gonna throw my 2 cents in here. I think part of your problem that you have missed is the importance of Amino Acids. I, like you, watched beautiful corals turn pale and or brown. My params were right in line with many of the other posters here. After talking to some knowledgeable reefers here in Southern California, I decided on Acropower. Since using the Amino supplement, my corals have really taken off. The other thing I discovered was the lack of sufficient Potassium. Potassium is used by blue, pink and purple corals to maintain color.
Testing for potassium is a bit of a PIA, but... Worth it in the long run. Since going with an Acropower regimen, as well as getting my potassium where it needs to be, the growth and color of my corals has been like night and day. I will say however, that I would start slowly with the Amino's as an overdose can cause unwanted algae or cyano.
Good luck and keep up the diligent work. You will be rewarded.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by ndrwater

Gonna throw my 2 cents in here. I think part of your problem that you have missed is the importance of Amino Acids. I, like you, watched beautiful corals turn pale and or brown. My params were right in line with many of the other posters here. After talking to some knowledgeable reefers here in Southern California, I decided on Acropower. Since using the Amino supplement, my corals have really taken off. The other thing I discovered was the lack of sufficient Potassium. Potassium is used by blue, pink and purple corals to maintain color.
Testing for potassium is a bit of a PIA, but... Worth it in the long run. Since going with an Acropower regimen, as well as getting my potassium where it needs to be, the growth and color of my corals has been like night and day. I will say however, that I would start slowly with the Amino's as an overdose can cause unwanted algae or cyano.
Good luck and keep up the diligent work. You will be rewarded.

Interesting that you mentioned this.

Since I am already increasing nutrients via fish, but that will take time.

I thought I'd include some additives for Growth, & Color, and decide on these:

Yes this is cheating, but I've been patient enough (the clean way), and will start with sub recommended dosing.

Yesterday I ordered:

• 1x bottle of AcroPower for Amino Acids ( For growth )

• 1x bottle of ZeoVit Phol's Coral Vitalizer ( For Polyp Expansion, growth and General Colors). 2 drops a day can't hurt.

• 1x bottle of Polyp Lab - Poly-Booster ( For Coral Feeding stimulation, and Amino Acids, Fatty Acids)

• 1x 5 tablets of ZeoVit Automatic Elements Potassium Iodide ( For Blue and Green coloration )

• 1x 5 tablets of ZeoVit Automatic Elements B-Balance ( For Red coloration)

Should arrive by end of week.

I'll play with these cautiously (ie. not both amino's at same time) and will monitor tank/coral conditions closely.

If anyone has had bad experiences with any of the above, let me know. ( Got 2 checkmarks from NDRWATER so far. )

[Myka]

Simply from following this thread, I get a feeling you like to tinker with the tank a lot since you seem to change your mind and flit to another thought/idea quickly. This may be part of your problem - you may be messing with the tank too much. Acros like it when you sit there and watch them grow and don't mess with them.

Oh, and I think your flow is on the low end of ok. Bigger powerheads wouldn't hurt, or just replace that one little one. Sump turnover doesn't really count when figuring it out flow, but I'm not sure why you have such big turnover through your sump? I like to stick around 5-8x total system volume through the sump.

[Wally.B]

I agree about me getting into tinker mode , however I used to be too busy keeping parameters stable manually, or adjusting circulation pump positions.

Adding an Apex controller solved the pump position challenges with cycling.
Also Apex for automated dosing got Alk/Calc really stable, leaving me time to play around for faster progress, or finding a healing tonic for the not so healthy corals.
Or just a case of tank maintenance withdrawal syndrome.

I get your point, you shouldn't rush nature. I should take a step back and watch stable progress. I'll try to take your advice, if possible.

With respect to the too fast return.
Plan was to get a smaller pump but that one was on sale, and I have a valve on it that I can throttle back if needed.
However since it runs my sea swirl back and forth return, that contributes to the in tank random circulation, which I believe is a good thing. (Anything wrong with too much tank cycle flow?)
The little pump is there for surface agitation, and pushes surface water towards the overflow. (It turns off during feeding time, to avoid food going into sump).

Yes, I do need to keep busy. While setting up this SPS tank, I kept busy by renovating my two tank sump room.

FROM THIS


TO THIS

[markalot]

So much advice here.

I want to stick to two things I noticed. You say you wet skim and change the cup more than once a day? I tend to skim a lot drier and change the cup every other day. Using NOPOX I was able to drop my nitrates from 15 to < 5 in 15 days, so the skimming was enough for those needs.

The pictures of the corals you show are the classic look of starved acros IMO. I've done this, gotten good growth, but poor pale colors. I might first look into backing off the skimmer a bit, but I'm far from an expert here.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by markalot

The pictures of the corals you show are the classic look of starved acros IMO. I've done this, gotten good growth, but poor pale colors. I might first look into backing off the skimmer a bit, but I'm far from an expert here.

The daily VERY WET SKIM is another mystery I'm trying to solve (A factor for starved Corals).

I have two exactly the same EuroReef Skimmers.

However even if I switch them around, the SPS tank skimmer still skims very wet, even at lowest setting. The other TANK skimmer skims normal at medium setting.
This SPS tank does have a much higher water turn over.

(Combined...Stripping nutrients and trace elements...Thus supporting my theory to dose/feed and/or need for more frequent water change. Maybe even turn off skimmer at some point).

What baffles me, is I can watch the skimmer for a while and nothing. Then I come back a few hours later and cup almost full.

I believe this is being caused by my Diamond Watch Goby. He must trigger the wet skim when he is hungry and starts to sift/turn over the sand.
He releases the nutrients in sand, and triggers the over skim.

I see no harm, since sand is sparkling white, after year of no cleaning.
(If you hate cleaning your sand. Get an DiamondWatch Goby. Only caution, is you can't place corals low on Sand. He will cover them.

[mic209]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

If you want to raise 1 of the majors you have to raise all of them ie for cal of 450 you need alk at 9 and mag at 1350, if you want cal at 480 you need alk at 9.6 and mag at 1440. you should notice a difference in growth if your other factors are correct. Lighting, flow etc

Just curious, where did you get these numbers from? As stated above, corals don't math. As long as your CA, ALK and MAG are within an acceptable range, your coral will grow as long as you have flow, lighting and nutrients handled.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

The daily VERY WET SKIM is another mystery I'm trying to solve (A factor for starved Corals).

I have two exactly the same EuroReef Skimmers.

However even if I switch them around, the SPS tank skimmer still skims very wet, even at lowest setting. The other TANK skimmer skims normal at medium setting.
This SPS tank does have a much higher water turn over.

(Combined...Stripping nutrients and trace elements...Thus supporting my theory to dose/feed and/or need for more frequent water change. Maybe even turn off skimmer at some point).

What baffles me, is I can watch the skimmer for a while and nothing. Then I come back a few hours later and cup almost full.

I believe this is being caused by my Diamond Watch Goby. He must trigger the wet skim when he is hungry and starts to sift/turn over the sand.
He releases the nutrients in sand, and triggers the over skim.

I see no harm, since sand is sparkling white, after year of no cleaning.
(If you hate cleaning your sand. Get an DiamondWatch Goby. Only caution, is you can't place corals low on Sand. He will cover them.

Inconsistent foam is more the sign of the skimmer skimming too wet or being too large for a tank. You should try to elevate the skimmer by an inch or two on a platform or lower your water level in your sump. Also, I do feel your turnover in the sump is too much and that can also cause some issues with how a tank is skimmed.

I do agree with others that you're tinkering too much and that it's still an issue of starved corals, but ti does seem you have a lot of little things wrong. Work on getting the nutrients up a bit and consistently for several weeks. Amino acids will help if that is the issue, but most likely amino acids help corals more so as a nitrogen source than anything, so just getting a little higher fish load and upping feedings will have the same effect at a cheaper cost.