Dinos again!!!!!!! I think I have beaten them for good, but still need some help!

[ReefMaster48]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Check out the big Dino thread on the chemistry forum.

There are two ways to fix it.. the clean method and the dirty method.

Dinos is a general term but there are several different species and you need to look under a microscope to tell what you've got.

The UV /peroxide route is the clean method. Sometimes works, but not on the most persistent strains with the hardest shells.

The dirty method has worked for those. Basically, dinos are the result of an unnatural biological & chemical state usually due to overzealous keepers who try to eradicate hair or other algae by adding chemicals (LaCl, phosphate removers) or running ULNS (C dosing). This basically wrecks the normal food chain where algae play a role and devolve your tank into an ecological dead end where dinos rule and algae can't gain a foothold.

The dirty method is to intentionally add and rebalance your nitrates and phosphates with the ultimate purpose of resurrecting the algae and resetting the tank's biology. Tree stump remover (nitrate) has shown success here, but check out the thread for the deep dive and feedback from other reef keepers who've done it.

Thanks for the info!


My plan from now on to fix any problem is basically to let itself work out. Other then husbandry tasks, I am kinda done with messing with the tank. If it gets overrun by algae, then Ill let it be until the imbalance is corrected and replaced with something else. Don't get me wrong, I stand by what I did, and believe that there is way more then one way to reefing; but i have gone through to much work lol. Early new years resolution is to let the tank do its thing for a while.

[slief]

Originally Posted by ReefMaster48

Thanks for the info!


My plan from now on to fix any problem is basically to let itself work out. Other then husbandry tasks, I am kinda done with messing with the tank. If it gets overrun by algae, then Ill let it be until the imbalance is corrected and replaced with something else. Don't get me wrong, I stand by what I did, and believe that there is way more then one way to reefing; but i have gone through to much work lol. Early new years resolution is to let the tank do its thing for a while.

There is one other alternative that I failed to mention.. Dino X by Fauna Marin. While I’ve never used it, I know others who have had success with the product. Fauna Marin makes very good quality products too so I would certainly trust their product.

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/fauna...SABEgLjq_D_BwE

[karimwassef]

Originally Posted by ReefMaster48

Thanks for the info!


My plan from now on to fix any problem is basically to let itself work out. Other then husbandry tasks, I am kinda done with messing with the tank. If it gets overrun by algae, then Ill let it be until the imbalance is corrected and replaced with something else. Don't get me wrong, I stand by what I did, and believe that there is way more then one way to reefing; but i have gone through to much work lol. Early new years resolution is to let the tank do its thing for a while.

Letting nature do its thing is ok, but you need to set it on a corrective course. Dinos create their own alternative natural environment where competing algae and predators are poisoned... that's a permanent state unless you reset.

That's why they're so difficult. They poison their environment so algae cannot recover.

[ReefMaster48]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Letting nature do its thing is ok, but you need to set it on a corrective course. Dinos create their own alternative natural environment where competing algae and predators are poisoned... that's a permanent state unless you reset.

That's why they're so difficult. They poison their environment so algae cannot recover.

Well I did do a reset essentially, and I believe that any dinos would have been killed. So (in theory of course) I am dino free. We will see how the next few weeks/months pan out. Hopefully we stay this way.

I did try DINO X with no success. Only thing it killed was a xenia frag.

For preventative and as an insurance policy, I did buy a UV and am in the process of installing. However, I need about 6 inches of more pipe. Apparently I didnt measure twice. I have wanted a UV for some time, so dinos are not the only reason; but I also know that a UV wont fix everything either. Just another tool to help.

[karimwassef]

Reset isn't to remove dinos.
Reset is adding the nutrients to intentionally cultivate algae.

[ReefMaster48]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Reset isn't to remove dinos.
Reset is adding the nutrients to intentionally cultivate algae.

Can elaborate a little? I might have gotten a tad confused. By "reset" we are still talking about "re-starting" the tank, right? Also, just to clarify, exactly what nutrients are you describing?

[karimwassef]

No. Reset is a biological reset. UV, etc.. can help reduce dinos but that's like pulling out weeds... they WILL be back.

The reset is the equivalent of planting competing plants that push the weeds back into the shadows.

You want to get back to algae... lots of hair algae... then slowly let the tank mature normally again.

[sfdan]

I've had about a 2 month battle with Dinos where I tried everything, and I finally got a handle on them recently.

I believe the formula to win is actually quite simple:

Get your Nitrates to 5-10PPM. Get your phosphates to >0.1 PPM (shoot for 0.1 to 0.2). Dose nitrates with stump remover. Dose phosphates with seachem flourish or the like. Hold nitrates and phosphates at those levels for a couple weeks and your dino bloom will end. It can be difficult to get your levels this high. I literally had to dose the equivalent of 1 PPM of phosphate per day for multiple days to start to get phosphates to register. To figure out how much to dose, just test your water everyday right before the lights come on. Then dose X of nitrates and Y of phosphates (start small and ramp up from there --- there are calculators online which should give you good initial doses). Keep ramping up the doses until nitrates at 5-10 and phosphates are >0.1. Depending on your tank's chemistry that might mean more of one or the other. Then once your levels are correct, keep doing maintenance doses everyday to maintain the nitrates and phosphates at the proper levels.

The goal here is two fold:

First, you want to convince the dinos to stop blooming and starting going back to being normal dino cells. With high levels of nutrients, the dinos go back to being normal. With low nutrient levels, they bloom. Once you get the higher nutrient levels in the tank, the dinos should stop blooming.

Second, things that are "good" competition against dinos, like algae, have trouble outcompeting bacteria for nutrients. This is why carbon dosing works so well. So you need to pump up the nutrient levels in your tank so algae can start getting a foothold and outcompeting the bacteria.

So pump the nutrient levels up and hold them there for days/weeks.

At this point, hopefully your bloom will stop and you'll have tons of algae everywhere. The algae is a bit of a nuisance, but it is much better than the dinos. At this point, your goal will now be to find a balance between nutrient addition (mostly feeding and potentially dosing), and nutrient export (chaeto in a refugium, ATS, water changes, whatever), that keeps your nitrate and phosphate levels above 0. This will prevent the dinos from blooming again. I'd say the standard targets would be a nitrate level of 5 and phosphates of 0.03. These levels are actually quite easy to manage in a healthy tank.

Then the long term goal is to make it so your DT isn't full of unsightly algae. This probably means a big cleanup crew and slowly ramping up the nutrient export to match your feeding levels.

The thing about dinos is that if you have a healthy reef aquarium with non-zero nutrient levels, the dinos are easily outcompeted by a number of other things and they won't bloom. Put a small rock with a dino bloom into a large and healthy reef tank, and the dinos will all be gone in a week. It isn't the presence of the dinos that is the problem, it is whether the water chemistry of the tank is healthy or not.

But once a bloom starts, the dinos create water chemistry that is really really good for them and really really bad for everybody else. So even if you selectively kill most of the Dinos (blackouts, H2O2, UV sterilizer or whatever), the remaining ones can and probably will come back with a fury. You have to completely alter the water chemistry *away* from what the dinos like and back towards a healthy reef tank, at which point you wont even need to selectively kill the dinos, they'll stop blooming and go back to being a very small and insignificant part of your tank's microbiology.

[ReefMaster48]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

No. Reset is a biological reset. UV, etc.. can help reduce dinos but that's like pulling out weeds... they WILL be back.

The reset is the equivalent of planting competing plants that push the weeds back into the shadows.

You want to get back to algae... lots of hair algae... then slowly let the tank mature normally again.

Oh ok gotcha. That's what I have been thinking, because one way or another, there is always some type of algae in a tank that is out-competing all the others. I would be very happy with GHA! Other then searching for a GHA covered frag, do you know a quick way to introduce it? Is there anyone that sells it online? I don't know who would make much money selling a nuisance algae though....

[ReefMaster48]

Originally Posted by sfdan

I've had about a 2 month battle with Dinos where I tried everything, and I finally got a handle on them recently.

I believe the formula to win is actually quite simple:

Get your Nitrates to 5-10PPM. Get your phosphates to >0.1 PPM (shoot for 0.1 to 0.2). Dose nitrates with stump remover. Dose phosphates with seachem flourish or the like. Hold nitrates and phosphates at those levels for a couple weeks and your dino bloom will end. It can be difficult to get your levels this high. I literally had to dose the equivalent of 1 PPM of phosphate per day for multiple days to start to get phosphates to register. To figure out how much to dose, just test your water everyday right before the lights come on. Then dose X of nitrates and Y of phosphates (start small and ramp up from there --- there are calculators online which should give you good initial doses). Keep ramping up the doses until nitrates at 5-10 and phosphates are >0.1. Depending on your tank's chemistry that might mean more of one or the other. Then once your levels are correct, keep doing maintenance doses everyday to maintain the nitrates and phosphates at the proper levels.

The goal here is two fold:

First, you want to convince the dinos to stop blooming and starting going back to being normal dino cells. With high levels of nutrients, the dinos go back to being normal. With low nutrient levels, they bloom. Once you get the higher nutrient levels in the tank, the dinos should stop blooming.

Second, things that are "good" competition against dinos, like algae, have trouble outcompeting bacteria for nutrients. This is why carbon dosing works so well. So you need to pump up the nutrient levels in your tank so algae can start getting a foothold and outcompeting the bacteria.

So pump the nutrient levels up and hold them there for days/weeks.

At this point, hopefully your bloom will stop and you'll have tons of algae everywhere. The algae is a bit of a nuisance, but it is much better than the dinos. At this point, your goal will now be to find a balance between nutrient addition (mostly feeding and potentially dosing), and nutrient export (chaeto in a refugium, ATS, water changes, whatever), that keeps your nitrate and phosphate levels above 0. This will prevent the dinos from blooming again. I'd say the standard targets would be a nitrate level of 5 and phosphates of 0.03. These levels are actually quite easy to manage in a healthy tank.

Then the long term goal is to make it so your DT isn't full of unsightly algae. This probably means a big cleanup crew and slowly ramping up the nutrient export to match your feeding levels.

The thing about dinos is that if you have a healthy reef aquarium with non-zero nutrient levels, the dinos are easily outcompeted by a number of other things and they won't bloom. Put a small rock with a dino bloom into a large and healthy reef tank, and the dinos will all be gone in a week. It isn't the presence of the dinos that is the problem, it is whether the water chemistry of the tank is healthy or not.

But once a bloom starts, the dinos create water chemistry that is really really good for them and really really bad for everybody else. So even if you selectively kill most of the Dinos (blackouts, H2O2, UV sterilizer or whatever), the remaining ones can and probably will come back with a fury. You have to completely alter the water chemistry *away* from what the dinos like and back towards a healthy reef tank, at which point you wont even need to selectively kill the dinos, they'll stop blooming and go back to being a very small and insignificant part of your tank's microbiology.

Thank you for sharing your experience! Great to hear that you beat dinos!

My dinos started with no nutrients at all (well, very little, less them 1ppm), but after seeing them, I stopped WCs and got them up to around 10PPM. It had been that way since 2-3 weeks after the outbreak with no results either.

For now, I just gotta see what happens, and hopefully it will not come back. I suppose my next goal should be to let nutrients build up so that I can get an algae to take over? Like karimwassef was saying. Anyone have any thoughts on this, or where to get algae? Seems like a silly question, because I can not imagine anyone selling nuisance algae.

What about culpera? I have heard that it can grow really fast, maybe even better then chateo? However, i do understand that it can go sexual, and completely take over a tank. Is there anything that eats it to keep it out of the main? From what I understand, it rarely goes sexual (but can), so would it be any different or better the chateo?

[karimwassef]

You don't need to add it. It's already in your tank but not able to grow.
You need both N and P to be high enough.

[LeJeune981]

You can come take all the turf algae from my tank... for free!!!!



Sent from my SM-S907VL using Tapatalk

[sfdan]

Originally Posted by ReefMaster48

Thank you for sharing your experience! Great to hear that you beat dinos!

My dinos started with no nutrients at all (well, very little, less them 1ppm), but after seeing them, I stopped WCs and got them up to around 10PPM. It had been that way since 2-3 weeks after the outbreak with no results either.

For now, I just gotta see what happens, and hopefully it will not come back. I suppose my next goal should be to let nutrients build up so that I can get an algae to take over? Like karimwassef was saying. Anyone have any thoughts on this, or where to get algae? Seems like a silly question, because I can not imagine anyone selling nuisance algae.

What is 10 PPM? Nitrates? You need to test for both nitrates and phosphates.

In order to get the Dinos to stop blooming, you need both nitrates of 10 PPM and phosphates >0.1 PPM. If Dinos are blooming and your nitrates are actually at 10 PPM, it is extremely likely that your phosphates are at 0. The bacteria will consume all available nitrates and phosphates until one of them is exhausted, so having one of either nitrates or phosphates to be measurable but the other one at 0 is very common. That is why dosing N or P individually is so critical, it is the only way to get N:P back into balance.

As karimwassef said, the algae is already there. It wants to grow but can't because it is being outcompeted by the bacteria and dinos.

If you maintain nitrate levels of >5 and phosphate levels of 0.1 PPM for a few weeks, algae will start to grow and the dino's growth will very likely subside. These levels can be hard to reach, I had the dose the equivalent of 1 PPM worth of phosphates throughout the day to get my tank levels to 0.1 PPM, because the bacteria were consuming so much. As the bloom subsides the tanks consumption will go down, but in the main stage of a dino bloom you may need to dose substantial amounts of either N or P (or both) to get your levels back in check.

[ReefMaster48]

I gotcha. Makes sense.

So turning off the skimmer (which has been pulling out a bunch of junk) would increase phosphates right? Should I do that, or just start skimming very lightly?

Also, would increasing the bio-load increase phosphates? Seems like a dumb question, but fish poo would turn into phosphates too, right.

[sfdan]

First, I wouldn't add any more livestock while dealing with a dino bloom. No reason to complicate matters while you deal with the bloom.

I'm not an expert on how the skimmer affects N:P levels, but I'd assume that feeding heavily and/or turning off the skimmer will both have a similar effect in increasing the levels of both. I'd guess in some cases depending on the bacterial composition of your tank, increasing both N:P together might help to bring N:P levels back into balance, or it might not.

In my case it did nothing. I effectively turned the skimmer off and fed double for a long time and my levels did not move. It wasn't until I manually measured and dosed the amounts to get my levels up did I see any progress, and as I said above, I had to dose *extreme* amounts of phosphates (and next to no nitrates) to get my levels back into proper balance.

Could you try turning down the skimmer or feeding more? Sure. It may help. I think especially since you are trying to get N:P levels to rise, turning down the skimmer is a good idea. But that is a very inexact way to help solve the problem. The surgical approach is testing your nitrates and phosphates every morning and dosing the proper amount of nitrate and/or phosphate to get the levels where they need to be. While doing this keep everything else constant. Feed the same amount everyday. Keep your skimmer running at the same levels. Keep your photoperiod the same. Don't add any new livestock.

[ReefMaster48]

So I got some liquid Phosphate (SeaChem). Does anyone know the specs on dosing? Also, what would you try to keep the tank levels at? I don't want to dose to much or to little obviously.

[sfdan]

The formula on the bottle is 0.8 * gallons * gain in ppm.

So a good starter dose would be to target 0.1 ppm, so 0.8 * 0.1 * 50 gallons = 4ml

However, this assumes your phosphate level is 0 and your phosphate consumption is 0. In actuality, your tank's phosphate consumption is probably quite high. So when you dose 0.1 worth of phosphate, it will probably go back to being 0 the next day because your tank consumes it all. So you need to find the dose where you are dosing enough to satisfy all the phosphate consumers and add a slight excess so you get the levels to 0.1 PPM. If you overshoot and get to 0.2 ppm or 0.3 ppm that is also fine, but you don't want to go too crazy because the higher the phosphate levels the more nuisance algae you are going to get (which is better than dinos, but worse than having less nuisance algae).

For example in my tank, I had to dose 0.8 PPM worth of phosphates to get my phosphates to increase 0.05 PPM. This is because during the peak of my bloom, my tank was consuming about 0.75 PPM of phosphates per day. After the bloom subsided I currently do a maintenance dose of about 0.1 PPM worth of phosphate to maintain my levels. IE the phosphate consumption of my tank is down from 0.75 PPM during the bloom to about 0.1 right now.

So how do you figure out your tank's consumption?

You need to test phosphates everyday, keep track of the amount of phosphate you dose and then figure it out.

I think a good practice is the following...

Right before the lights come on, test phosphates, write down the result.
Then dose your phosphates (your starting dose should be 4 ml).

If your phosphate test the next comes up at 0, take whatever dose you did the previous day and add 4 ml to it.

Once your test shows 0.1 ppm of phosphates, you've found your maintenance dose of phosphates and keep dosing that everyday.

As the dino bloom subsides, your tank's consumption of N:P will go down so you won't need to dose as much. Slowly ease off the dosing and eventually you shouldn't have to dose anything.

Keep in mind you'll have to do this both for nitrate and phosphates. When you start dosing phosphates your nitrates will probably start going down as the availability of phosphates will allow bacteria and algae to grow, which consumes both N and P. However in my case I had to dose tons of phosphates and very little nitrates, but I've seen anecdotes where people had the opposite situation.

[ReefMaster48]

Originally Posted by sfdan

The formula on the bottle is 0.8 * gallons * gain in ppm.

So a good starter dose would be to target 0.1 ppm, so 0.8 * 0.1 * 50 gallons = 4ml

However, this assumes your phosphate level is 0 and your phosphate consumption is 0. In actuality, your tank's phosphate consumption is probably quite high. So when you dose 0.1 worth of phosphate, it will probably go back to being 0 the next day because your tank consumes it all. So you need to find the dose where you are dosing enough to satisfy all the phosphate consumers and add a slight excess so you get the levels to 0.1 PPM. If you overshoot and get to 0.2 ppm or 0.3 ppm that is also fine, but you don't want to go too crazy because the higher the phosphate levels the more nuisance algae you are going to get (which is better than dinos, but worse than having less nuisance algae).

For example in my tank, I had to dose 0.8 PPM worth of phosphates to get my phosphates to increase 0.05 PPM. This is because during the peak of my bloom, my tank was consuming about 0.75 PPM of phosphates per day. After the bloom subsided I currently do a maintenance dose of about 0.1 PPM worth of phosphate to maintain my levels. IE the phosphate consumption of my tank is down from 0.75 PPM during the bloom to about 0.1 right now.

So how do you figure out your tank's consumption?

You need to test phosphates everyday, keep track of the amount of phosphate you dose and then figure it out.

I think a good practice is the following...

Right before the lights come on, test phosphates, write down the result.
Then dose your phosphates (your starting dose should be 4 ml).

If your phosphate test the next comes up at 0, take whatever dose you did the previous day and add 4 ml to it.

Once your test shows 0.1 ppm of phosphates, you've found your maintenance dose of phosphates and keep dosing that everyday.

As the dino bloom subsides, your tank's consumption of N:P will go down so you won't need to dose as much. Slowly ease off the dosing and eventually you shouldn't have to dose anything.

Keep in mind you'll have to do this both for nitrate and phosphates. When you start dosing phosphates your nitrates will probably start going down as the availability of phosphates will allow bacteria and algae to grow, which consumes both N and P. However in my case I had to dose tons of phosphates and very little nitrates, but I've seen anecdotes where people had the opposite situation.

Thank you very much! I started dosing yesterday, but only at 2ml because I wasn't sure. About an hour and a half to two hours later, phosphates where still at or less then .25, definitely not over. (Before dosing they were around .10). Started with 4ml today, so we will see what it tests in a hour or two and then tomorrow morning.

Thanks again for the great info!

[ReefMaster48]

Ok, so little bit of an update.

After the nuke, the dinos came back. Only in the sump (where I run the light 2 hours before the main and 2 hours after; which is what I think saved the DT. But nevertheless, they did come back. I suppose that this was somewhat good, as I now had something to test against. Although, it would have been perfect if they never came back.

Before I first started dosing the phosphates, there was a readable measurement, however, that's all I can say. Less then .10-.15 ppm. Not much. So I started dosing, and am now dosing at 20ml once a day to get levels at 1-1.5ppm. And I have to say, it is working so far. Dinos have receded from a thicker mat to a few strands here and there at most, and guess what? For once in this particular tank's life time, we have GHA! Not much, but GHA starting in the sump nonetheless. None in the main as of yet, I think my fuge light will out compete anything in the main.

I am going to keep this up for a few weeks, and see how it goes. Likely reduce the dosage after a week or so. Hopefully it stays this way and the dinos stay at bay. We will also see if they come back after stopping the phosphate dosing, or if I will need to keep it up.

Thank you in particular to karimwassef and sfdan for the very helpful tool on how to get rid of dinos!!! I know it is still early, but even if it is temporary, it was very cool to see this change already. Thank you!

[sfdan]

Growing GHA and the Dinos going away is exactly what you are hoping for!

You next step is to maintain the dosing, and once the dinos are mostly gone you can safely add to your clean up crew to start eating the healthy algae that is growing in your system. Or just let the algae grow in your fuge and manually export it.

[karimwassef]

Yay!

Feed your algae! Feed it!!

[ReefMaster48]

Woah, just figured out how to multi quote for the first time lol!

Originally Posted by sfdan

Growing GHA and the Dinos going away is exactly what you are hoping for!

You next step is to maintain the dosing, and once the dinos are mostly gone you can safely add to your clean up crew to start eating the healthy algae that is growing in your system. Or just let the algae grow in your fuge and manually export it.

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Yay!

Feed your algae! Feed it!!

Absolutely!



Thanks again, and Merry Christmas! Hopefully everyone has their shopping done unlike some of us...

[JTL]

Do dinos have a "furry" look to them because that is what we are battling. It doesn't blow off it needs to be brushed and sometime agressively. We keep a very clean tank (only 6 months old). Measure nitrate is zero as is phosphates. Alk 9, Ca 450, Mg 1500, pH 8.1. I also have a little slime on the water in my sump and in the filter sock. I run carbon but not gfo. Cheato is growing, albeit slowly.

[sfdan]

Dinos will blow off easily. They are single celled organisms that form very fragile strands/webs when at high density. You hit them with a turkey baster they will go flying (of course that is part of the problem, they will just attach somewhere else and don't mind being free-floating).

If it needs to be brushed off they aren't Dinos.

Got a picture?

[JTL]

Originally Posted by sfdan

Dinos will blow off easily. They are single celled organisms that form very fragile strands/webs when at high density. You hit them with a turkey baster they will go flying (of course that is part of the problem, they will just attach somewhere else and don't mind being free-floating).

If it needs to be brushed off they aren't Dinos.

Got a picture?

It is difficult for me to get a good pic but in the attachment what looks fuzzy on the rock is what I am dealing with.