DIY- "Pins" method of gluing acrylic. - Page 13

highquality · 10/08/2006, 06:37 PM

I definately agree with that. Do you think it will be enough support to work even though not the best way? Whats the best inexpensive way to get a piece on top? Would 1/4 extruded be good for the top brace and look the same? the tank is out of 3/8 cast " I believe its cast"

Acrylics · 10/08/2006, 07:23 PM

Not sure what size the tank is so really can't say to be honest. Please don't take this wrong but I still have a hard time with reasoning why folks use extruded material rather than cell cast. There's only about $1/sq ft difference. I guess if ya can't find it locally but...
That said, I think 1/4" extruded would be better than just the 2" strips.
What do you mean "I believe it's cast"? what brand is it? Paper or film masked? If film, what color film? Just askin'

James

highquality · 10/08/2006, 09:05 PM

it has brown paper and says plexiglass in blue.. I did not know thats all the difference in price was. I can get it here so I probably will. The tank height is 14 " , however it is 3 ft by 4 ft The routing is coming out good. Im not sure if im moving to fast of speed or should slow down. Im routing by hand. I can see little line goin straight up and down but I cant feel them. I can feel a bump here or there with my finger over it . usually towards the end of pice where the router movement bobbles a little. any tips?

Acrylics · 10/09/2006, 08:40 AM

If the paper says Plexi-Glas G - it is cast, if it says Plexi-Glas MC - it is extruded. Plex uses blue type for both cast and extruded.
You're going to see little "tic" marks from routing - these are the little lines you see but can't feel, this is normal and a good sign. For the little bumps here and there, this is due to shavings/debris getting between the router base and fence. Don't worry - just smooth them out *slightly* with some 320grit sandpaper. *TIP* if you have a compressor and a helper - have them blow air at the spot just ahead of the router where it contacts the fence. This will blow out any debris and allow the route to go a little smoother.
The bobbling at the end is usually caused by the router dipping down at the end of the route without support from the piece itself. I'm hesitant to make any suggestions to change what you are doing as it sounds like you are doing well. Perhaps ease up on the downward pressure at the end of the route. With practice - you'll get better at it

Got pics?

James

Matrexz · 10/09/2006, 02:53 PM

Would extruded 1/4 acrylic be ok for a sump that is 16" high or would be better to play it safe and go with cell cast??

melev · 10/09/2006, 02:55 PM

James will say to use Cast. I'd use extruded.

Matrexz · 10/09/2006, 02:58 PM

Why do you say to use extruded??

melev · 10/09/2006, 03:07 PM

It works. I've been using extruded for years. If you have the money and access to cast acrylic, get it. It is stronger and has better clarity. For a sump, I don't see feel it is that critical.

Acrylics · 10/09/2006, 05:05 PM

LOL!!, no argument here, it does in fact work. Just a different way of looking at things. Many view the sump as not as critical, which is fine as it probably isn't. I view the sump as a pressure vessel every bit as much as a display tank is and for pressure vessels - I'll only use good cell cast. Like I said - just a different viewpoint and I'm not certain one is more or less correct than the other but everyone has their own way of doing things.

I've often said it is workable for smaller sumps, just not the *recommended* (IMHO) material. Perhaps just semantics at that point.

That said, I'd rather see someone use a good extruded material and get solid joints than use a poor quality cell cast and get weak joints. Extruded materials are much more forgiving insofar as edge preparation goes (it mashes out much easier) so the idea that hobbyists use that and get frustrated with cell cast is completely understandable (not saying anything about you Marc, just hobbyists in general). Well, that and most commercial solvents are rather poor for cell cast materials, again IMHO.
FWIW I know the material Marc uses and it is the best of all extruded materials so he has confidence in the material and that is something I can appreciate

OTOH, I *personally* don't buy the money issue, not in this hobby. If one were to say they use extruded because it's good enough for the purpose, dont' have easy access to good cell cast, *and* you can save a few bux as a side benefit - I'd get it. But not solely to save money, just the wrong hobby for that, once again IMHO. Mayhaps I am spoiled by having easy access to good materials - dunno, but I do appreciate the possibility

..sorry for rambling
James

melev · 10/09/2006, 05:37 PM

James, no issues here. I believe it is critical that the display tank hold water at all costs. A sump, however, may leak and flood some water on the floor. The return pump may burn up in the process, but the livestock is safe in the display tank. A sump tends to be a smaller vessel as you pointed out, so the risks are less.

Which is exactly why I've never built a display tank and never will.

Occasionally I've had to use Cast acrylic, and it was way easier to drill. That was impressive. Gluing wasn't any different to me than it is with AcryLite FF.

The bottom line is James is the expert and does professional work. I'd defer to any advice he'd give, and simply explained why I use what I use and why.

highquality · 10/09/2006, 06:14 PM

It says Plexiglas-G on one of the strips. Everything else is blank. Here is a pic of what I was getting. It was sure enough from the sherds of acrylic flying in front of the plate and straight edge.

highquality · 10/09/2006, 06:18 PM

That is 3/8 acrylic and pretty close. I wasnt sure it could get better untill Acrylics pointed out the flying shards getting jammed between the fence and base plate of router. Here is how its coming out now.

highquality · 10/09/2006, 06:22 PM

I cant feel those line . I took the photo where you can see the light reflections. its really smooth. What do you think? I could not find a way to clear out the acrylic from in front of the router, so I made a pass. I then brushed away the scrap and made another pass without moving the fence. it cleaned up the bumps and seems to work much better. the router does great untill the scrap builds up halway down the piece.

Acrylics · 10/09/2006, 06:24 PM

Looks good to me, need a job?

James

highquality · 10/09/2006, 06:27 PM

Here is my setup. it takes a while to get things clamped down with room to pass and get right measurements at first, but getting the hang of it. I setup this mdf table and was going to take the base plate off the router and mout to underside of the table but never did.

highquality · 10/09/2006, 06:28 PM

highquality · 10/09/2006, 06:30 PM

highquality · 10/09/2006, 06:33 PM

i know, I went with the Hitachi . Lowes was out of the pc 690. This has a 2 hp and almost identical design. used the 30$ for a bit. Its a frued 1/2 by 1 inch.

melev · 10/09/2006, 07:45 PM

Looks great. Nice job. Nice toys too.

highquality · 10/09/2006, 08:15 PM

Thanks Melev. Acrylics: if I was getting my aquaculture comp. off the ground I would take you up on that job. Not enough time in the day as it is. So you guys are saying that cast is a little more dificult to use with comercial solvents like weldon -4? will it still come out ok and strong with weld on and cast? On the two inch strip thing, the tank is only 14 in high. At the corners i was goin to overlap the braces. i figure with the overlaped bonded together i, one inside tank and other side on top of tank, that it would help hold corners tight .

highquality · 10/09/2006, 08:25 PM

I see how the radius at corners will distribute the load, and help tie the tank together tho. well, im not there yet.

Acrylics · 10/09/2006, 08:37 PM

Not that cast is more difficult to use but that more care has to be taken in edge prep IMO. Cast doesn't dissolve as easily as extruded so a sawcut edge will look like a sawcut edge when glued. However, a well prepped edge is strong & will look great

Given the size of the tank you are making, I think you'll be fine with just the strips.

HTH,
James

Matrexz · 10/09/2006, 10:00 PM

OK so what is the really good brand of extruded???

highquality · 10/09/2006, 10:05 PM

Im not sure. they will know tho.

Acrylics · 10/10/2006, 06:38 AM

AFAIK, Marc still uses Acrylite FF which IMO is the best of all the extruded acrylics. For many reasons but primarily the surface quality, it just isn't pitted like many of the other extruded materials.

HTH,
James

10/08/2006, 06:37 PM	#301
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	I definately agree with that. Do you think it will be enough support to work even though not the best way? Whats the best inexpensive way to get a piece on top? Would 1/4 extruded be good for the top brace and look the same? the tank is out of 3/8 cast " I believe its cast" __________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/08/2006, 09:05 PM	#303
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	it has brown paper and says plexiglass in blue.. I did not know thats all the difference in price was. I can get it here so I probably will. The tank height is 14 " , however it is 3 ft by 4 ft The routing is coming out good. Im not sure if im moving to fast of speed or should slow down. Im routing by hand. I can see little line goin straight up and down but I cant feel them. I can feel a bump here or there with my finger over it . usually towards the end of pice where the router movement bobbles a little. any tips? __________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/09/2006, 02:53 PM	#305
Matrexz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Stillwater,Oklahoma Posts: 422	Would extruded 1/4 acrylic be ok for a sump that is 16" high or would be better to play it safe and go with cell cast?? __________________ What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail??? Current Tank Info: 180 with 55 sump/refuge and a 12g nano

10/09/2006, 02:58 PM	#307
Matrexz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Stillwater,Oklahoma Posts: 422	Why do you say to use extruded?? __________________ What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail??? Current Tank Info: 180 with 55 sump/refuge and a 12g nano

10/09/2006, 06:14 PM	#311
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	It says Plexiglas-G on one of the strips. Everything else is blank. Here is a pic of what I was getting. It was sure enough from the sherds of acrylic flying in front of the plate and straight edge. __________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/08/2006, 07:23 PM	#302
Acrylics Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,230	Not sure what size the tank is so really can't say to be honest. Please don't take this wrong but I still have a hard time with reasoning why folks use extruded material rather than cell cast. There's only about $1/sq ft difference. I guess if ya can't find it locally but... That said, I think 1/4" extruded would be better than just the 2" strips. What do you mean "I believe it's cast"? what brand is it? Paper or film masked? If film, what color film? Just askin' James

10/09/2006, 08:40 AM	#304
Acrylics Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,230	If the paper says Plexi-Glas G - it is cast, if it says Plexi-Glas MC - it is extruded. Plex uses blue type for both cast and extruded. You're going to see little "tic" marks from routing - these are the little lines you see but can't feel, this is normal and a good sign. For the little bumps here and there, this is due to shavings/debris getting between the router base and fence. Don't worry - just smooth them out slightly with some 320grit sandpaper. TIP if you have a compressor and a helper - have them blow air at the spot just ahead of the router where it contacts the fence. This will blow out any debris and allow the route to go a little smoother. The bobbling at the end is usually caused by the router dipping down at the end of the route without support from the piece itself. I'm hesitant to make any suggestions to change what you are doing as it sounds like you are doing well. Perhaps ease up on the downward pressure at the end of the route. With practice - you'll get better at it Got pics? James

10/09/2006, 02:55 PM	#306
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	James will say to use Cast. I'd use extruded.

10/09/2006, 03:07 PM	#308
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	It works. I've been using extruded for years. If you have the money and access to cast acrylic, get it. It is stronger and has better clarity. For a sump, I don't see feel it is that critical.

10/09/2006, 05:05 PM	#309
Acrylics Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,230	LOL!!, no argument here, it does in fact work. Just a different way of looking at things. Many view the sump as not as critical, which is fine as it probably isn't. I view the sump as a pressure vessel every bit as much as a display tank is and for pressure vessels - I'll only use good cell cast. Like I said - just a different viewpoint and I'm not certain one is more or less correct than the other but everyone has their own way of doing things. I've often said it is workable for smaller sumps, just not the recommended (IMHO) material. Perhaps just semantics at that point. That said, I'd rather see someone use a good extruded material and get solid joints than use a poor quality cell cast and get weak joints. Extruded materials are much more forgiving insofar as edge preparation goes (it mashes out much easier) so the idea that hobbyists use that and get frustrated with cell cast is completely understandable (not saying anything about you Marc, just hobbyists in general). Well, that and most commercial solvents are rather poor for cell cast materials, again IMHO. FWIW I know the material Marc uses and it is the best of all extruded materials so he has confidence in the material and that is something I can appreciate OTOH, I personally don't buy the money issue, not in this hobby. If one were to say they use extruded because it's good enough for the purpose, dont' have easy access to good cell cast, and you can save a few bux as a side benefit - I'd get it. But not solely to save money, just the wrong hobby for that, once again IMHO. Mayhaps I am spoiled by having easy access to good materials - dunno, but I do appreciate the possibility ..sorry for rambling James

10/09/2006, 05:37 PM	#310
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	James, no issues here. I believe it is critical that the display tank hold water at all costs. A sump, however, may leak and flood some water on the floor. The return pump may burn up in the process, but the livestock is safe in the display tank. A sump tends to be a smaller vessel as you pointed out, so the risks are less. Which is exactly why I've never built a display tank and never will. Occasionally I've had to use Cast acrylic, and it was way easier to drill. That was impressive. Gluing wasn't any different to me than it is with AcryLite FF. The bottom line is James is the expert and does professional work. I'd defer to any advice he'd give, and simply explained why I use what I use and why.

10/09/2006, 06:18 PM	#312
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	That is 3/8 acrylic and pretty close. I wasnt sure it could get better untill Acrylics pointed out the flying shards getting jammed between the fence and base plate of router. Here is how its coming out now. __________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/09/2006, 06:22 PM	#313
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	I cant feel those line . I took the photo where you can see the light reflections. its really smooth. What do you think? I could not find a way to clear out the acrylic from in front of the router, so I made a pass. I then brushed away the scrap and made another pass without moving the fence. it cleaned up the bumps and seems to work much better. the router does great untill the scrap builds up halway down the piece. __________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/09/2006, 06:24 PM	#314
Acrylics Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,230	Looks good to me, need a job? James

10/09/2006, 06:27 PM	#315
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	Here is my setup. it takes a while to get things clamped down with room to pass and get right measurements at first, but getting the hang of it. I setup this mdf table and was going to take the base plate off the router and mout to underside of the table but never did. __________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/09/2006, 06:28 PM	#316
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	__________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/09/2006, 06:30 PM	#317
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	__________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/09/2006, 06:33 PM	#318
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	i know, I went with the Hitachi . Lowes was out of the pc 690. This has a 2 hp and almost identical design. used the 30$ for a bit. Its a frued 1/2 by 1 inch. __________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/09/2006, 07:45 PM	#319
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Looks great. Nice job. Nice toys too.

10/09/2006, 08:15 PM	#320
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	Thanks Melev. Acrylics: if I was getting my aquaculture comp. off the ground I would take you up on that job. Not enough time in the day as it is. So you guys are saying that cast is a little more dificult to use with comercial solvents like weldon -4? will it still come out ok and strong with weld on and cast? On the two inch strip thing, the tank is only 14 in high. At the corners i was goin to overlap the braces. i figure with the overlaped bonded together i, one inside tank and other side on top of tank, that it would help hold corners tight . __________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/09/2006, 08:25 PM	#321
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	I see how the radius at corners will distribute the load, and help tie the tank together tho. well, im not there yet. __________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/09/2006, 08:37 PM	#322
Acrylics Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,230	Not that cast is more difficult to use but that more care has to be taken in edge prep IMO. Cast doesn't dissolve as easily as extruded so a sawcut edge will look like a sawcut edge when glued. However, a well prepped edge is strong & will look great Given the size of the tank you are making, I think you'll be fine with just the strips. HTH, James

10/09/2006, 10:00 PM	#323
Matrexz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Stillwater,Oklahoma Posts: 422	OK so what is the really good brand of extruded??? __________________ What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail??? Current Tank Info: 180 with 55 sump/refuge and a 12g nano

10/09/2006, 10:05 PM	#324
highquality Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: n.c. Posts: 550	Im not sure. they will know tho. __________________ " If you can touch people with wildlife, then they want to save it." Steve Irwin Current Tank Info: One of my tanks is a 50 gallon Mini Reef - 250 wt 20k on a PFO mag. ballast - a 250 wt krystal star 11k on a dynamic E-ballast - ASM G2 1/2 skimmer -TLF phosban reactor with 1 1/2 carbon in it -

10/10/2006, 06:38 AM	#325
Acrylics Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,230	AFAIK, Marc still uses Acrylite FF which IMO is the best of all the extruded acrylics. For many reasons but primarily the surface quality, it just isn't pitted like many of the other extruded materials. HTH, James