Beananimal Problems

[ScottF83]

Hello

Trying to do a freshwater test run of my 6ft tank and having some issues. Hoping you guys can help!

I have a half coast to coast weir in the DT which goes through three holes into an external box. The box contains three 2" drains as per the beananimal setup.

My issue is that the whole thing is SO noisy!

The biggest source of noise is the full siphon drain. Despite being completely full of water at the top, there is a ton of air pushing out the bottom. No idea where the air is coming from. Hoping you guys may? Pictures attached...

Ive realised that my pipework is far too big. Should've gone for 1". And my other realisation is that my tank holes are too high in relation to the height of the trickle drain. Which means that I have to have the water much higher than the level of the trickle drain in order to reduce the waterfall noise between the coast to coast section and the beananimal section.

Any ideas to solve that?

Currently I have to have the trickle one nearly completely closed to avoid the waterfall into the beananimal section and the full siphon nearly completely closed to avoid air getting into that drain as it drains far too fast otherwise.

Generally a bit annoyed! Thought I had it all planned out. Grr.

What should I do?

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[Mrramsey]

If you are gettin a lot of air the check fittings, unions and valves for a good seal. I had a similar issue with air and found a small leak at one of my valves.


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[BrettDS]

The full siphon should have no air coming out of the bottom once it gets running. If there is definitely no air going into the top, then it may be one of the following:

If this is a long run, then it can take a little while for all the air to work it’s way out of the pipe when you first start it up. If there is still air coming out after 5 or 10 minutes then this likely isn’t the problem.

There could be a small leak in a fitting somewhere. If the leak is small enough as water moves by fast it will act like a Venturi and actually suck air in rather than let water out. Unfortunately this could be difficult to track down, but one possibility would be to fill the pipe with water and block the end, then turn off the system so it doesn’t overflow. With the pipes full of standing water instead of running water then the leak will let water out rather than sucking air in. If the leak is big enough you might be able to see where it starts dripping from.

Finally if the pipe isn’t very deep in the water in your sump then the water movement could be pulling air in around the pipe rather than the air coming in through the pipe. Maybe try to put the end of the pipe a little deeper in the water and see if that stops it.

[ScottF83]

Originally Posted by BrettDS

The full siphon should have no air coming out of the bottom once it gets running. If there is definitely no air going into the top, then it may be one of the following:

If this is a long run, then it can take a little while for all the air to work it’s way out of the pipe when you first start it up. If there is still air coming out after 5 or 10 minutes then this likely isn’t the problem.

There could be a small leak in a fitting somewhere. If the leak is small enough as water moves by fast it will act like a Venturi and actually suck air in rather than let water out. Unfortunately this could be difficult to track down, but one possibility would be to fill the pipe with water and block the end, then turn off the system so it doesn’t overflow. With the pipes full of standing water instead of running water then the leak will let water out rather than sucking air in. If the leak is big enough you might be able to see where it starts dripping from.

Finally if the pipe isn’t very deep in the water in your sump then the water movement could be pulling air in around the pipe rather than the air coming in through the pipe. Maybe try to put the end of the pipe a little deeper in the water and see if that stops it.

Did a bit more testing. Can't find any air leak in the full siphon pipe.

I think the pipe is just too big?

Starting with it fully closed, the pipe fills up for the first few inches until the gate valve. Then slowly open but it deals with the water too quickly and air starts pouring in (even with the trickle pipe shut off to try and slow things up)

I essentially get to a point where the only way to get everything quiet is to have the full siphon fully shut off and the trickle drain turned into a full siphon via the airline and having its ball valve around 80-90% shut off so that the C2C weir holes are silent too.

So it's crunch time. Do I just replace the ball valve with a gate valve and it becomes a durso type.

Or cut out both full and trickle lines to replace with a smaller pipe size? Need to do both as the full one is clearing water too fast and the trickle one needs to be higher so that the water line is around the middle of the weir holes.

Leaning towards the latter... So what pipe sizes should I be using for a flow rate of about 1500-2000 gph?

Thank you in advance
Scott

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[ClownNut]

move the gate valve toward the end should solve your problem.you can easily plug a slip/slip gate valve at the end of the drain pipe try it out.
just open the glued in gate valve and the new gate valve all the way, slowly close the new gate valve til you have no air go into the drain pipe in the overflow box.

[Mrramsey]

Scott, you said air starts pouring in when you open the valve. Those valves can be disassembled. This is where mine was leaking air from. Get some Teflon paste from the hardware store and put some on all of the threaded fittings. This will seal up any air leaks. It doesn’t take much.




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[ScottF83]

Thank you for the tips.

A contact here in the UK mentioned that the gate valve is too high.

I also need to move my trickle drain upwards to avoid a crashing waterfall from the C2C holes.

What dyou think about the pipe sizes in general? I only need about 1500-2000gph for the Triton method I'm going to use. Should I consider moving to 25mm pipe for the full siphon? Presumably I could keep the emergency and trickle drains as 50mm

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[BrettDS]

Originally Posted by ScottF83

A contact here in the UK mentioned that the gate valve is too high.

I didn’t notice that at first, but looking back up at your pictures I think that might be exactly what the problem is. The pipe will be full of water above the gate valve, but under the gate valve the pipe may not be completely full of water as the gate valve restricts the flow, so you have less than a full pipe’s worth of water inside the pipe under the gate valve and the rest of that space will be filled with air.

I think this coupled with your large pipe size is allowing a lot of air to be in this lower pipe section. The water will pull out air from the pipe as it travels down into the sump. But, as long as there are no leaks, then eventually this will stop. Eventually it will get to a point of equilibrium where it pulls out all the air that it can from the pipe and the air stops bubbling into your sump, but again, with your larger pipes and the valve up high I imagine this could take a while. I’m guessing even as long as 30 minutes or an hour.

I would first try to just let it run for a while and see how long it takes to reach this point of equilibrium. As long as there are no leaks it will happen eventually. If air isn’t getting into the system then eventually it will remove all the air that it can from the pipe.

And frankly, even if it takes 30 minutes or an hour that might be ok. When the tank is set up, 99% of the time the system will be running and at that point of equilibrium with no air coming through. It would just mean that whenever the system is stopped for maintenance or a power failure that you would need to wait through that long period for it to reach equilibrium again when it gets restarted.

I do believe that lowering the gate valve and reducing the pipe size will both lower the amount of time it takes to reach this state if you do want to make some modifications.

[ScottF83]

Originally Posted by BrettDS

I didn’t notice that at first, but looking back up at your pictures I think that might be exactly what the problem is. The pipe will be full of water above the gate valve, but under the gate valve the pipe may not be completely full of water as the gate valve restricts the flow, so you have less than a full pipe’s worth of water inside the pipe under the gate valve and the rest of that space will be filled with air.

I think this coupled with your large pipe size is allowing a lot of air to be in this lower pipe section. The water will pull out air from the pipe as it travels down into the sump. But, as long as there are no leaks, then eventually this will stop. Eventually it will get to a point of equilibrium where it pulls out all the air that it can from the pipe and the air stops bubbling into your sump, but again, with your larger pipes and the valve up high I imagine this could take a while. I’m guessing even as long as 30 minutes or an hour.

I would first try to just let it run for a while and see how long it takes to reach this point of equilibrium. As long as there are no leaks it will happen eventually. If air isn’t getting into the system then eventually it will remove all the air that it can from the pipe.

And frankly, even if it takes 30 minutes or an hour that might be ok. When the tank is set up, 99% of the time the system will be running and at that point of equilibrium with no air coming through. It would just mean that whenever the system is stopped for maintenance or a power failure that you would need to wait through that long period for it to reach equilibrium again when it gets restarted.

I do believe that lowering the gate valve and reducing the pipe size will both lower the amount of time it takes to reach this state if you do want to make some modifications.

Yes I've been thinking all night on it and came to the same conclusion really that there was just too much air in the section below the valve. Especially with the gate needing to be so far to the closed position to try and get some balance of flow. (i.e so it doesn't suck all the water and then loads of new air)

I only put it where it is because a lot of the pictures of beananimals have the valves just below the tank pipework... Oh well

What do you think about pipe size then for the 1500-2000 gph goal?

25mm/1" seems reasonable as, on his own website, it says this should handle 1700 gph on its own therefore I'd be able to have that one dialled down a little and the remaining 50mm/2“ trickle drain dealing with the rest

I'm also going to raise that trickle one to deal with the crashing waterfall from the C2C holes

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[Mrramsey]

I used 1.25” on my system. I easily maintained 1500+ gph. I then backed it off with a smaller pump. I now run at 8-900 gph.


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[ScottF83]

Originally Posted by Mrramsey

I used 1.25” on my system. I easily maintained 1500+ gph. I then backed it off with a smaller pump. I now run at 8-900 gph.


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Thanks for the figures

Decided to chop out the full siphon and replace with 1". I have some pipe and fittings already so will just need a couple reducers for the gate valve


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[BrettDS]

Originally Posted by ScottF83

Decided to chop out the full siphon and replace with 1". I have some pipe and fittings already so will just need a couple reducers for the gate valve

If you move the valve down to near the end of the run I’m not sure that reducing the pipe size is really necessary. Above the gate valve the pipe will be full of water, so whether the pipe is 1”, 1.25” or 2” you shouldn’t have a problem with extra air.

[ScottF83]

Originally Posted by BrettDS

If you move the valve down to near the end of the run I’m not sure that reducing the pipe size is really necessary. Above the gate valve the pipe will be full of water, so whether the pipe is 1”, 1.25” or 2” you shouldn’t have a problem with extra air.

Guess I've nothing to lose in trying it

Gate valve is glued rather than unions but can snip it out and remove the pipes with a bit of heat and move it down for a quick test

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[Hooligan]

Just open the current valve all the way and add a new valve at the desired location. Far faster, and also less likely to break something that way!

[ScottF83]

Originally Posted by Hooligan

Just open the current valve all the way and add a new valve at the desired location. Far faster, and also less likely to break something that way!

I would but a 50mm gate valve is like £60+

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[ScottF83]

Okay guys, before I steam ahead with changing the pipe size, I had the parts to move the gate valve down and move the tee of the trickle siphon upwards

So along with some magic of cement glue and a lighter, I managed to remove all the old pipe and replace with new

Pictures attached. Can't wait until the glue dries so I can try it out!!

(I will add the last bit of pipe later of course)

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[Lsufan]

Moving the valve down definitely won’t hurt & may end up helping with the 2” pipe but I’m not sure that is your issue. Valve location shouldn’t matter unless u have a long run to a basement sump or long horizontal runs in the plumbing. It may help but I think it will take other adjustments to go along with it.

Raising the open channel in the overflow box & raising the water level should help. I think u are just having issues getting it tuned in. With the open channel that low it is making it hard on the syphon to purge its air. The open channel takes on all the water not letting the air purge from the syphon. I don’t know if u raised the open channel before your last pictures but I would raise it even more then in your last picture. U are going to want the water level in the overflow box to be about 1/2 way on the pass thru hole for it to be silent. If u run the water level there then your open channel is still to low.

I think u will be surprised how closed the valve will end up being for it to get tuned in. Especially with larger pipe it takes some playing with it to finally get it tuned in the first time.

Here is a rough drawing I made for someone who was having issues. It shows where u want the water level to be coming thru the pass thru holes & it shows where u want the hieght of the open channel compared to the water level. On the open channel u want the water level to be at the bottom of the inlet on the tee where the 90 attaches to it. So the flat section of the 90 & tee, not the inlet of the 90 that is facing down

[ScottF83]

Yes you're absolutely right. The last picture is just where it happened to end up when I chopped just below the tee and just pushed on a straight connector. Unfortunately it's still a little low so I'll have to burn out the pipe and cut some new

But anyway some pictures attached from testing just now.

I believe the full siphon purged after a couple of minutes with the DC10000 at 2/3rd power; so that's good news. (though that bulkhead now has a small leak so I'm going to have to Re-seat it! Grr)

Just have to get the water level where the holes (3 x 55mm) become quiet and move the tee up to it



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[ScottF83]

Evening all

Just wanted to say thank you for your helpful advice

With lowering the gate valve and raising the height of the trickle siphon, I was able to achieve silent operation!

I have a small leak to deal with in the return pipe and a bulkhead but otherwise ready to roll!

Thanks again
Scott

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[BrettDS]

That’s great news One quick comment I’ll make is that you don’t want to spend a lot of time fine tuning it with fresh water. Fresh water is fine for a leak test and a proof of concept, but when I first set up my tank I got the plumbing done and spent some time tuning the return pumps and the drains with fresh water to get everything silent and ready to go.

But I discovered that once I filled it with salt water everything was out of balance and I needed to completely retune it. I guess saltwater is a different density or something, but whatever it was the adjustments that I had made with freshwater did not carry over to saltwater.

[ScottF83]

Totally understand! I fully expect I'll have to retune it all again but at least now I know that, before I push the tank into position and fill it with the NSW that I'm sourcing, it will be possible to get it silent and water tight

Did some things to hopefully eliminate the leaks so probably do a test tomorrow one last time and then drain it all.

Really needs a good clean. Bits of silicone and pvc shavings everywhere!!

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[Lsufan]

Like Brett said, u will need to fine tune it once u get it filled with saltwater. I would leave the valve where it is because it should give u a good starting point, u shouldn’t be to far off.

In your last pics the water level in the overflow box looks better, but it still looks like the open channel (secondary drain) is a little low. From the looks of it I think u will find that u will need the top of the 90 about even with the top of the pass thru holes. I find that if the water level is above about 1/2” on the inlet of the tee it starts getting louder & u start getting bubbles exiting into the sump. So where u have the section of pipe connecting the 90 to the tee, about 1/4” to 1/2” above the bottom of that section is what I would shoot for.

I have a similar setup to u on my 150 gallon. The only difference is I made the interior wier from acrylic & have bulkheads holding it onto the tank. Then I have a glass exterior box with all 1.5” plumbing. I have a 60” long tank so I made the boxes 54” long

[ScottF83]

Originally Posted by Lsufan

Like Brett said, u will need to fine tune it once u get it filled with saltwater. I would leave the valve where it is because it should give u a good starting point, u shouldn’t be to far off.

In your last pics the water level in the overflow box looks better, but it still looks like the open channel (secondary drain) is a little low. From the looks of it I think u will find that u will need the top of the 90 about even with the top of the pass thru holes. I find that if the water level is above about 1/2” on the inlet of the tee it starts getting louder & u start getting bubbles exiting into the sump. So where u have the section of pipe connecting the 90 to the tee, about 1/4” to 1/2” above the bottom of that section is what I would shoot for.

I have a similar setup to u on my 150 gallon. The only difference is I made the interior wier from acrylic & have bulkheads holding it onto the tank. Then I have a glass exterior box with all 1.5” plumbing. I have a 60” long tank so I made the boxes 54” long

Probably just my picture. The bottom of the tee where the water has to trickle over so above the weir holes but lower than the emergency drain so I think just where it needs to be. I couldn't resist trying again this morning and it was fine again.

The only source of noise now is my pump which I'm struggling to get into place because the pipe is so rigid and annoying, and the other source is the waterfall in the sump as it leaves the first chamber. Appreciate this one will get quieter with algae growth and so on. For now I'll just try and muffle it and have the water level higher in the next chamber

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[BrettDS]

Originally Posted by ScottF83

The only source of noise now is my pump which I'm struggling to get into place because the pipe is so rigid and annoying

One thing that can help with both of these issues is to put a short section of silicone tubing between the pump and the rigid pipe. Sometimes if the pump is connected directly to the rigid pipe any noise or vibration from the pump will be amplified by the pipe. The soft section of tube will prevent this. Additionally the soft tube can help give you a little flexibility when you’re trying to attach or remove the pump.

[ScottF83]

Originally Posted by BrettDS

One thing that can help with both of these issues is to put a short section of silicone tubing between the pump and the rigid pipe. Sometimes if the pump is connected directly to the rigid pipe any noise or vibration from the pump will be amplified by the pipe. The soft section of tube will prevent this. Additionally the soft tube can help give you a little flexibility when you’re trying to attach or remove the pump.

Sorry didnt explain very well but that is how I have it. The problem is the flexible 30mm tube is very rigid and inflexible

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