Intelligent Design / Natural Filtration

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Subsea

When I grew Graciilaria Parvispora ( Red Ogo) commercially, I sent it off to a scientific lab to be analyzed. It is my belief that seaweed will absorb anythig in the water. I expected the 30:1 ratio of nitrogen to phosphorous but not the 5:1 ratio of potassium to nitrogen nor the 2:1 ratio of sulphur to nitrogen. I am rethinking my nutrient dosing procedures.


Gracilaria Parvispora dry weight analysis:

Nitrogen @ 2.50%
Phosphorous @ 0.082%
Potassium @ 13.54%
Calcium @ 0.555%
Magnesium @ 1.163
Sulfur @ 4.82
Zinc @ 139ppm
Iron @ 107ppm
Manganese @ 20ppm
Copper @ 7.0 ppm

[Subsea]

Because I have been often asked about dosing macro tanks, I am reposting the agriculture lab test results for Gracilaria Parvispora: Red Ogo or Tang Heaven Red.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Timfish

Bugs Rule! Fascinating how research is proving some of the observations and conclusions of aquarists like Paul B and Steve Tyree. Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" is an excellent place to start. The stuff done by Dr. Andreas Haas* showing the roles algae have in promoting heterotrophic (oxygen depleting) microbes and corals promote autotrophic (oxygen enriching) is a real eye opener on natural filtration in our systems.
De Deoij's** cryptic sponge research may be a bit off topic but proves Tyree's ideas on cryptic zones.

*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23882445
**http://www.rug.nl/research/portal/fi...letethesis.pdf

Tim,
I thought your links were relevant enough to post again.

[Subsea]

In the past, I have used GAC in a tank to remove a by product of macro: DOC. Ken Felderman has written peer reviewed articles on methods to remove DOC. His research shows that protein skimming removes 30% of DOC, GAC removes 60% and the inhabitants of a mature reef tank remove 75% of DOC.

I am not interested in nutrient export. For me, it is all about nutrient recycling. I want my nutrient sink to be corals, sponges, and micro inverts including the pod brothers (amphipods and copepods).

On my 75G Jaubert Plenumn DT and my 30G mud macro refugium, I have decided to remove macro and lights. I will place eggcrtate on top of mud and stack some dead porus rock on top of eggcrate. I have ordered a cryptic sponge starter culture and will seed this tank with it. I already have large populations of pods and worms.

[Subsea]

Many people that have dense rock walls may well be promoting modified cryptic zones on the unlit sides of these in tank rocks.

[provost_reefers]

I will be very interested to see how your cryptic sponges do. My set up is about 9 months old now, 200 gallon display with plenum, about 30 gallon refugium area in sump. No skimmer but I do use GAC and GFO. My macros are hardly growing and in previous tank, the cryptic tank above display was teeming with life. Where can one purchase the cryptic sponge starter pack?

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I don't have anything to add except that it's threads like this which keep me engaged on this forum (and engaged with the hobby in general, honestly). It's amazing that there's such a rich, never ending supply of new material to learn, no matter how long you've been doing this stuff for. To the regulars in this thread: Keep it up, everyone!

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by provost_reefers

I will be very interested to see how your cryptic sponges do. My set up is about 9 months old now, 200 gallon display with plenum, about 30 gallon refugium area in sump. No skimmer but I do use GAC and GFO. My macros are hardly growing and in previous tank, the cryptic tank above display was teeming with life. Where can one purchase the cryptic sponge starter pack?

Steve Tyree at ReefFarmers has them. Not sure who else on line. My friend Timfish set ups and maintains numerous systems that are more than 20 years old, sponges came in with uncured diver collected Florida live rock. You may talk to some maintenance people in your area and members in your local reef club.

With respect to macros not growing, you may be limited by a single nutrient. Russ Kronwetter at Gulf Coast EcoSystem has much information on macros. On his web site, he has a section with the most concise pragmatic information on macro that I have read. Iron is often a limited nutrient. In articles written by Randy Holmes Farley on iron in reef tanks, he sumarizes that it would be difficult to add too much iron. Furthermore, he discribes an iron nutrient storage mechanism that during iron deprevation in the bulk water, supplies needs of the macro. Terrestial plants have this same mechanism. Automatic back up systems to supply changing conditions in the reef community. Nature is magnificiant.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

I don't have anything to add except that it's threads like this which keep me engaged on this forum (and engaged with the hobby in general, honestly). It's amazing that there's such a rich, never ending supply of new material to learn, no matter how long you've been doing this stuff for. To the regulars in this thread: Keep it up, everyone!

Thank you for the encouragment. I viewed your profile. Did you complete a 300G system. I see you live in NY. I drove thru the city and stayed at Patchouge on Long Island. On the second day there I went claiming with the host and my two other brothers.. Imagine three Cajuns with their toes in the sand colecting clams. It was a blast.

The best food for disease free fish is live gut cavity bacteria. This is best supplied by live bivalves. Here in Austin, I get them at the seafood counter of local HEB

[Subsea]

In discussions on this thread and another thread in reef discussion on cryptic zone filtration, It is all about the bugs. If you don't think that bugs rule, then you did not see Tom Cruise in "War of the Worlds".

[Misled]

People that look into mine better have a strong stomach. Between the worms and bugs it can look pretty nasty. It looks like everything is moving.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Misled

People that look into mine better have a strong stomach. Between the worms and bugs it can look pretty nasty. It looks like everything is moving.

Being a Cajun, we have a reputation for eating everthing. I put my limit of what I eat at "as long as it is not moving". Some years back on a hobbiest forum while talking about eating Red Ogo from my refugium, a Cheaf asked me how I removed the pods. I told him sushi, that I did not remove them. I could hear his laughter from Kansas City.

[Subsea]

When John Tullock wrote his book "The Natural Reef Aquirium", he emphasised biotheme. One biotheme was "pivitol species", that must have fish or coral. Whatever it is, everything else that goes into that tank should be lower on the food chain.

This morning, as I woke up to my first cup of coffee, I watched my 10G pod/ snail/ bristle worm tank come to life as I added some flake food. It was my intention to use the chaeto in this tank to seed other systems. In the meantime, I wake up to the little people "doing their thing".

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by provost_reefers

I will be very interested to see how your cryptic sponges do. My set up is about 9 months old now, 200 gallon display with plenum, about 30 gallon refugium area in sump. No skimmer but I do use GAC and GFO. My macros are hardly growing and in previous tank, the cryptic tank above display was teeming with life. Where can one purchase the cryptic sponge starter pack?

I removed all macro from Leng Sy ecosystem 30G refugium, laid down egg crate on top of mud and added dry rock. My friend Timfish brought me some different sponges. Also, to add biodiversity, I will add pieces of uncured live rock to this system, top and bottom.

[Subsea]

This is Gulf live rock that is five years in tank. There is still one hard coral on this rock. It also has some aptasia in rock crevices which are difficult to treat with hydrogen peroxide injection.
Later today, I am getting 15 lbs of uncured live rock and 50 peppermint shrimp to add to this tank.

I was not able to upload picture. Have I used up my alotted data? Do I need a different membership?

[Timfish]

@ Provost Reefers,

Like Subsea said yiou can get some from Tyree's website. If you haven't added any fresh transhipped wild (not boat rock) or maricultured liverock those are both excellent sources also but QT for 30 days it just like corals and fish. You should also look under coral colonies as they may already have some attached. Like a lot of stuff they will grow to the available food so even if you already have some it may take a while to see them growing.

[Subsea]

I like natures way, better. Nutrient export is not my game. I am all about nutrient recycling.

Carbon dosing is reef aquarium technology that uses foam fractionators to remove organic nutrients like free swimming bacteria. When I look into my tank at night I see many photosynthetic corals with feeding feathers out. What are they feeding on? I say bacteria are a large percentage of what filter feeding inverts consume. Considering that the raw water for our protein skimmers will be rich in free swimming bacteria that are removed by adhesion due to surface tension of air bubbles; I say protein skimmers remove food for corals in my tank.

Nature takes inorganic carbon dioxide, users photosynthesis to make organic nutrients for the rest of the food chain.

http://www.fondriest.com/environment...phyll/#algae13


Carbon Fixation and the Climate

In addition to providing food and oxygen for nearly all life on Earth, phytoplankton help to regulate inorganic carbon (carbon dioxide) in the atmosphere 17. During photosynthesis, carbon dioxide and water molecules are used to make sugar for energy. The process of incorporating inorganic carbon into organic carbon (glucose and other biologically useful compounds) is called carbon fixation, and is part of the biological carbon pump 11.

As carbon fixation and oxygen production are part of the same process, the extent of phytoplankton’s participation is on the same scale. Phytoplankton consume a similar amount of carbon dioxide as all land plants combined 11. While phytoplankton can pull carbon dioxide from the atmosphere or the ocean, it will have a similar effect. CO2 that is taken from the water is replaced by CO2 from the atmosphere, thanks to Henry’s law (the dissolved gas content of water is proportional to the percentage of gas in the air above it 32. This consumption helps keep carbon dioxide levels in check, reducing its presence as a greenhouse gas 28.

Algae and cyanobacteria help to regulate the climate by fixing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. This carbon is then consumed or decomposed by other organisms.
Algae and cyanobacteria help to regulate the climate by fixing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. This carbon is then consumed or decomposed by other organisms, making its way through the cycle until it is released as dissolved carbon dioxide in water or deposited in sediment.

When carbon dioxide is consumed, the carbon molecules become incorporated into the phytoplankton’s structure, allowing the organism to function and grow 11. If the phytoplankton is not eaten by another organism (passing on the carbon up the food chain), then it will sink into the ocean when it dies. As with other detritus (non-living organic material), the phytoplankton will be decomposed by bacteria, and the carbon is either released back into the ocean as dissolved carbon dioxide or eventually deposited into the seafloor sediment 33. Thanks to phytoplankton, this biological carbon pump removes approximately 10 trillion kilograms (10 gigatonnes) of carbon from the atmosphere every year, transferring it to the ocean depths 11.

In climate terms, this process helps to maintain global surface temperatures 11. Without this cycle, atmospheric CO2 would rise approximately 200 ppm (current levels are around 400 ppm) 33,34. Even small changes in phytoplankton populations could have an effect on the atmosphere and world climate 11.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Misled

People that look into mine better have a strong stomach. Between the worms and bugs it can look pretty nasty. It looks like everything is moving.

Jessie,

As a Cajun, I used to have only one eating rule, if it moves, I don’t eat it.

I can’t testify to that anymore. On Thanksgiving, I eat Grape Caulerpa salad that had pods on it.

[Subsea]

Jaubert Plenum was designed to remove nitrate by increasing volume of “reducing oxygen conditions” to facilitate environment for de-nitrifying bacteria.

I say, “Why remove nitrate?” Everything that grows on earth needs it.
Redfield Ratio of 106:16:1 says nitrate is important. So I manage it. When algae grows, I am the Master Gardner. I get janitors for sand bed maintenance that reproduce to food supply and feed tank live food with their larvae.

[redlobstor]

I love the title of this thread intelligent design. As a Believer myself, I believe that a creator has designed all that is in this world and as such we should strive to mimic the processes that he has put in place.

Oftentimes there's more than one way to achieve the desired result but all too often we think that the way we are doing it is the only way and that is just not the case. I prefer only to use technology for stuff like Auto top off, timers, water movement, and when it comes to tank husbandry I prefer to go all natural. I usually only get involved when it comes to water changes, water testing, and dosing. I must admit I don't do any of those things very often.

I have a 75 gallon mixed Reef with a powder blue tang and a lightning clownfish that I feed occasionally. The majority of food they get is live food from the tank and they are fat and healthy. I have yet to put any seaweed in for the tang and I have had it for about a year. None of the fish have ever had a disease and I don't quarantine and I attribute this to the ecosystem I've created.

Subsea I agree why remove something from the tank when there's a critter that will remove it for you.

By the way great thread!

Jason

[Subsea]

Yes, I respect Nature and emulate what works best for me. After 45/years of reefkeeping, I have accumulated a garage full of “stuff” to operate a reef tank. My view of a reef tank has evolved to include macro lagoons, the nursery for the ocean.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by zeemofree

Calcium reactor media varies in size, my main goal with is to have a more natural system that provides natural replenishment of minerals. I am striving for a tank that ranked care of itself and has superior stability.

IMO, after maintaining a 6” deep Jaubert Plenum For 25 years, I can say without a doubt, I would not do it again. Coarse substrate of Jaubert Plenum favors bacteria to export nitrogen. DSB as proposed by Ron Schmick used micro fauna & fana to recycle nutrients and feed tank.

I lean toward complex food webs in sandbed, but see no need for 6”. I will mimic what PaulB did for 44 years with his tank and plumb a reverse flow undergravel filter with 3” of CaribSea “Special Reef Grade” aroggonite.

[redlobstor]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Yes, I respect Nature and emulate what works best for me. After 45/years of reefkeeping, I have accumulated a garage full of “stuff” to operate a reef tank. My view of a reef tank has evolved to include macro lagoons, the nursery for the ocean.

Beautiful tank

Sent from my P00I using Tapatalk

[NS Mike D]

Originally Posted by Subsea

I removed all macro from Leng Sy ecosystem 30G refugium, laid down egg crate on top of mud and added dry rock. My friend Timfish brought me some different sponges. Also, to add biodiversity, I will add pieces of uncured live rock to this system, top and bottom.

I am leaning towards this but on a nano scale. I've been following the threads and posts by you, PaulB (who lives a corals' throw from me) Kareem, Steve Tyree and TimFish. I find a multi-zone system very interesting.

I am over ambitious attempting to keep a mixed coral nano (29 gal) with a mandarin, so it's been interesting keeping everyone happy.

I am adding a 10 gallon sump under the tank seeking a no light semi-cryptic zone in the fuge section to compliment the CPR HOB 5 gallon sump on the back which is packed with cheato and pods with a bit of sand and rubble.

I hope to remove the skimmer as I am pulling very little skimmate as it stands now. Could be all the feather duster worms and aptasia I can't reach are beating the skimmer to the job.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by NS Mike D

I am leaning towards this but on a nano scale. I've been following the threads and posts by you, PaulB (who lives a corals' throw from me) Kareem, Steve Tyree and TimFish. I find a multi-zone system very interesting.

I am over ambitious attempting to keep a mixed coral nano (29 gal) with a mandarin, so it's been interesting keeping everyone happy.

I am adding a 10 gallon sump under the tank seeking a no light semi-cryptic zone in the fuge section to compliment the CPR HOB 5 gallon sump on the back which is packed with cheato and pods with a bit of sand and rubble.

I hope to remove the skimmer as I am pulling very little skimmate as it stands now. Could be all the feather duster worms and aptasia I can't reach are beating the skimmer to the job.

MIKE,
I have enjoyed your contributions on those other threads. For certain, the more biodiversity the better. Bacteria and food webs have “Dynamic Equilibrium” and population densities correct for food supply changes. Self correcting biological control for free.
Natural systems are stable. They stand the test of time and they are easy to maintain. The reason that many do not have success with natural systems is because of impatience or toooooo much bioload. Why put so many fish in a tank so that if one piece of equipment fails, the tank crashes. Many people set themselves up for defeat by being short sided on their tank husbandry.

With respect to the things that compete with skimmer for nutrients, you can include coral.

PS. The