White Spots On Copperbanded Butterfly

MondoBongo · 05/02/2016, 04:45 PM

oi veigh. not what i wanted to come home to. i'm seeing three large white spots on the tail of my CBB. this is a large fish, so to give some perspective on the size, these spots are larger than the salt you would find on soft pretzels. these were definitely NOT present yesterday when i observed him. this particular fish has been with me since early october, and in the tank since mid-november.

they don't seem to be domed. it doesn't show up well in the pics, apologies about the potato quality, but they almost seem to have little streamers on the bottom two, like they split or something. he is not scratching, flashing, or displaying any signs of discomfort. appetite is normal, and appears to be acting as he normally would.

no other fish are displaying symptoms of anything, or any blemishes/marks that would otherwise cause concern.

nothing has been added to the tank since late december. i hate 4 anthias in QT right now, which is very close to my saltwater mixing barrel, but they've been there for 4 weeks post TTM now, and none of them have displayed any visible presentation of any disease that i have seen.

i was considering a possibly sting since they are nicely right in line. i keep mostly SPS but also have a few very large euphyllia colonies and a few acans in the tank.

any help would be appreciated. i will try to get some better pics later if possible when the wife gets home with her iphone (way better camera than my droid, meh).

MondoBongo · 05/02/2016, 04:54 PM

i'm almost wondering if this is a presentation of lymphocytosis. these seem much larger than the skin lesions i've seen associated with ich.

ThRoewer · 05/02/2016, 05:40 PM

Lymphocystis lumps can get quite big. A sudden Lymphocystis outbreak is a bit unlikely for a fish that is for over half a year with you, but not impossible if the fish has a weakened immune system.

The thing that would concern me more is the knife back he has. After half a year this fish should be well nourished and not look like it's starving to death.
How often do you feed him and how much does he eat?

MondoBongo · 05/02/2016, 05:42 PM

he gets fed pe myses 2 - 5 times a day in small amounts. he's usually getting several myses shrimp per feeding, say less than 3.

he got two full rounds of prazi while going through TTM. sometimes still gives a shake, but usually only when he's feeling crowded or mad that i'm not feeding him. there is a yellow tang in the tank that gives him a little grief from time to time, but usually not more than a few seconds chase before they part. typically they are pretty copacetic though.

scuzy · 05/02/2016, 05:43 PM

Looks like lympho

MondoBongo · 05/02/2016, 05:57 PM

For what it's worth I think the photos kind of exaggerate the contours of his back.

Also... And now I'm wondering if I'm going crazy... The spots already look smaller?

ThRoewer · 05/02/2016, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

For what it's worth I think the photos kind of exaggerate the contours of his back.

Also... And now I'm wondering if I'm going crazy... The spots already look smaller?

I don't think the photo is exaggerating his back - whenever you can see a ridgeline along the middle of the side of a fish it is undernourished.

5 x 2 = 10 Mysis a day? That is most definitely not enough.

Get some blackworms and feed him until he stops eating. Then wait a few minutes and feed him again. repeat until he won't eat anymore. After a break of an hour or two repeat the feeding.
It's the routine I do with my regals until they are fat and it usually works well.

Naraku · 05/02/2016, 06:51 PM

My red sea bannerfish broke out with same symptom and died after a week.
Before, it got worse, it looked like lympho growth at some areas.

I had it for 3 years before it broke out. No symptoms before.

The red sea bannerfish I tried before all died of the same symptom.
Nothing works: tank transfer, copper, formalin, prazi, antibiotics.

I think this is some sort of virus or mycobacteria that breaks out when they get stressed.

There was another thread where a guy had pyramid butterflies with the same symptom. Only 1 survived out of a group. The survivor lost all the spots but is probably a carrier for life. I think its titled "ich vs brook"
He tried formalin and copper and nothing worked. He then tried antibiotics and the rest died except for the one fish. I personally think the antibiotics didn't work but the fish developed immunity.

MondoBongo · 05/02/2016, 07:17 PM

Thanks for the responses.

I'll increase feeding, and keep an eye on him for now I guess.

MondoBongo · 05/03/2016, 03:08 PM

So just a quick update. All but one of the original spots is completely gone. The last one, just barely visible. Now I'm more confused than ever.

Perhaps injury or a sting?

Naraku · 05/03/2016, 03:10 PM

If my theory is correct about it being a virus, hopefully he is immune for life.

MondoBongo · 05/03/2016, 03:24 PM

Hopefully. The speed that this has progressed at has me completely baffled.

If I had been away yesterday and come home today, I never would have known anything was wrong.

MondoBongo · 05/06/2016, 07:34 AM

so just a little update on this. his skin is completely healed up, but he's not looking so good.

continued weight loss, and loss of appetite. he's been with me for about 8 or so months now, but is on the large end of what i've seen as far as CBB size. hopefully he turns around, but the loss of appetite has me thinking he might be nearing his end.

we'll see how it plays out, but at this point, i'm not holding out much hope.

MondoBongo · 05/18/2016, 12:58 PM

just wanted to put another update here.

skin appears fully healed, he did get another dot on him near his head that was similar in appearance to the three original ones noted in the photos above. this also disappeared within a day.

his appetite has picked up, and i've been feeding him as much as he will eat as often as he will eat. currently using 2 - 3 full cubes of PE Mysis a day on just the display, and taking care to target feed him as much as possible.

he appears to gaining weight back.

still not sure what all happened here, and may not ever know, but for now at least his condition seems to be quite improved.

krullshards · 05/18/2016, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

just wanted to put another update here.

skin appears fully healed, he did get another dot on him near his head that was similar in appearance to the three original ones noted in the photos above. this also disappeared within a day.

his appetite has picked up, and i've been feeding him as much as he will eat as often as he will eat. currently using 2 - 3 full cubes of PE Mysis a day on just the display, and taking care to target feed him as much as possible.

he appears to gaining weight back.

still not sure what all happened here, and may not ever know, but for now at least his condition seems to be quite improved.

Good news! Glad he's doing better! Thanks for the update!

MondoBongo · 06/23/2016, 08:03 AM

just want to give one last update on this one.

he's been eating great, gained a ton of weight, no more spots, and looks to be in excellent condition.

i'd like to thank ThRoewer for pointing out his condition, i had my tunnel vision going and didn't spot it.

cheers.

05/02/2016, 04:45 PM	#1
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	White Spots On Copperbanded Butterfly oi veigh. not what i wanted to come home to. i'm seeing three large white spots on the tail of my CBB. this is a large fish, so to give some perspective on the size, these spots are larger than the salt you would find on soft pretzels. these were definitely NOT present yesterday when i observed him. this particular fish has been with me since early october, and in the tank since mid-november. they don't seem to be domed. it doesn't show up well in the pics, apologies about the potato quality, but they almost seem to have little streamers on the bottom two, like they split or something. he is not scratching, flashing, or displaying any signs of discomfort. appetite is normal, and appears to be acting as he normally would. no other fish are displaying symptoms of anything, or any blemishes/marks that would otherwise cause concern. nothing has been added to the tank since late december. i hate 4 anthias in QT right now, which is very close to my saltwater mixing barrel, but they've been there for 4 weeks post TTM now, and none of them have displayed any visible presentation of any disease that i have seen. i was considering a possibly sting since they are nicely right in line. i keep mostly SPS but also have a few very large euphyllia colonies and a few acans in the tank. any help would be appreciated. i will try to get some better pics later if possible when the wife gets home with her iphone (way better camera than my droid, meh). __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.

05/02/2016, 04:54 PM	#2
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	i'm almost wondering if this is a presentation of lymphocytosis. these seem much larger than the skin lesions i've seen associated with ich. __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.

05/02/2016, 05:40 PM	#3
ThRoewer Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 9,555	Lymphocystis lumps can get quite big. A sudden Lymphocystis outbreak is a bit unlikely for a fish that is for over half a year with you, but not impossible if the fish has a weakened immune system. The thing that would concern me more is the knife back he has. After half a year this fish should be well nourished and not look like it's starving to death. How often do you feed him and how much does he eat? __________________ Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio 3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...

05/02/2016, 05:42 PM	#4
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	he gets fed pe myses 2 - 5 times a day in small amounts. he's usually getting several myses shrimp per feeding, say less than 3. he got two full rounds of prazi while going through TTM. sometimes still gives a shake, but usually only when he's feeling crowded or mad that i'm not feeding him. there is a yellow tang in the tank that gives him a little grief from time to time, but usually not more than a few seconds chase before they part. typically they are pretty copacetic though. __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.

05/02/2016, 05:57 PM	#6
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	For what it's worth I think the photos kind of exaggerate the contours of his back. Also... And now I'm wondering if I'm going crazy... The spots already look smaller? __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.

05/02/2016, 05:43 PM	#5
scuzy Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 6,499	Looks like lympho

05/02/2016, 06:51 PM	#8
Naraku Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 512	My red sea bannerfish broke out with same symptom and died after a week. Before, it got worse, it looked like lympho growth at some areas. I had it for 3 years before it broke out. No symptoms before. The red sea bannerfish I tried before all died of the same symptom. Nothing works: tank transfer, copper, formalin, prazi, antibiotics. I think this is some sort of virus or mycobacteria that breaks out when they get stressed. There was another thread where a guy had pyramid butterflies with the same symptom. Only 1 survived out of a group. The survivor lost all the spots but is probably a carrier for life. I think its titled "ich vs brook" He tried formalin and copper and nothing worked. He then tried antibiotics and the rest died except for the one fish. I personally think the antibiotics didn't work but the fish developed immunity.

05/02/2016, 07:17 PM	#9
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	Thanks for the responses. I'll increase feeding, and keep an eye on him for now I guess. __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.

05/03/2016, 03:08 PM	#10
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	So just a quick update. All but one of the original spots is completely gone. The last one, just barely visible. Now I'm more confused than ever. Perhaps injury or a sting? __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.

05/03/2016, 03:10 PM	#11
Naraku Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 512	If my theory is correct about it being a virus, hopefully he is immune for life.

05/03/2016, 03:24 PM	#12
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	Hopefully. The speed that this has progressed at has me completely baffled. If I had been away yesterday and come home today, I never would have known anything was wrong. __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.

05/06/2016, 07:34 AM	#13
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	so just a little update on this. his skin is completely healed up, but he's not looking so good. continued weight loss, and loss of appetite. he's been with me for about 8 or so months now, but is on the large end of what i've seen as far as CBB size. hopefully he turns around, but the loss of appetite has me thinking he might be nearing his end. we'll see how it plays out, but at this point, i'm not holding out much hope. __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.

05/18/2016, 12:58 PM	#14
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	just wanted to put another update here. skin appears fully healed, he did get another dot on him near his head that was similar in appearance to the three original ones noted in the photos above. this also disappeared within a day. his appetite has picked up, and i've been feeding him as much as he will eat as often as he will eat. currently using 2 - 3 full cubes of PE Mysis a day on just the display, and taking care to target feed him as much as possible. he appears to gaining weight back. still not sure what all happened here, and may not ever know, but for now at least his condition seems to be quite improved. __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.

06/23/2016, 08:03 AM	#16
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	just want to give one last update on this one. he's been eating great, gained a ton of weight, no more spots, and looks to be in excellent condition. i'd like to thank ThRoewer for pointing out his condition, i had my tunnel vision going and didn't spot it. cheers. __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.