Flame Angelfish Breeding attempt

[fla2341]

Clownfishfan: Right now the jar is in a window which gets direct sunlight. I would like to keep them outside to get full on unfiltered(right now it's being filtered by the window glass and screen)sunlight at some point, however I have too many animals in my area which have, in the past, tipped over my algae jars outside. At some point I would like to build a raceway with sections and a large sump/refugium attached to try that method out. That I will build outside. However funds are extreemly low to non existent right now so that will have to wait for better times.


Jasanden: I use a small glass container/jar to dip them out of the tank. I pour this into one of my floating hatchers. Using this method it takes me about 10 minutes to collect the eggs. Make sure to catch all sides and corners not just the open water. Also make sure that the main filtration of the tank is off just before the spawning and until after you have collected the eggs or several will end up in the sump.

I want to keep Potter's as well. Any difficulty in keeping them? Can you show a photo of them?

A note on collecting the eggs: I built a seive with 120 micron mesh and used this method to collect three consecutive batches before. Using this method resulted in a much lower rate of eggs hatching - about 6/10 ave. for every spawn. I stopped using this method early on. I know the eggs were fertilized by viewing them with the microscope, however they did not proceed past the developmental stage just prior to hatch. I assume that the shell might have hardened after too much air exposure. Based on my experience (as limited as that is right now) I would not recommend using a net or seive if you want most of the eggs to hatch out. Dip them out to not over expose them to the air. Thanks Jasanden for jaring my memory on this.

If any one has any ideas or experience in breeding angelfish please feel free to chime in.

One photo below shows a fertizlied and unfertilized egg 12 hours post spawn. The other is a clear shot of a fertilized egg close to hatching.

[fla2341]

Short video of the 3DPH larval fish. This was taken thru the glass jar using the USB Microscope setting: 30x's. A little crappy but you can see the up/down motions, breathing and main features. I watched this one and two others for over an hour today. They moved twards the flashlight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3tJs...ature=youtu.be

[fla2341]

I collected 100+ eggs last night. Most are in the egg cluster in the photo at the bottom. Early developmental signs point to high fertilization. Spawning occured @ 11:20pm

[humaguy]

excellent job! this is amazing...good luck...I am watching this thread!!

[moshi1ry]

this is pretty awesome hopefully you get past this larva stage and get some good looking angel fish! Im curious tho since ive only studied clown fish mating behavior what are the flame angels like? For instance with clown fish the female is more dominant and larger is the same true for these? Also do the angel fish eat the larva if you left them in the tank? Might be safer to let them hatch in the tank then siphon the larva out long as the fish dont eat them! O and sorry one more thing whats the time estimate from hatch to full grown baby? Thanks!

[fla2341]

humaguy: Thanks Stay tuned

moshi1ry: Thanks for your interest. The flame angels are pelagic spawners. They release their eggs into the water column. They eggs float initially. If you don't remove them ASAP they tend to end up as food, in the skimmer or as added nitrates. The male is the more dominate and larger of the pair. The male chases the female thru the rockwork for about 2-3 hours prior to spawning. They stop to check things out several times by poking their noses out of the rocks. At approx 1/2 hour prior to lights out the female will flare her fins infront of the male and the male will nudge the female's abdomen forming a "T". The pair will begin to "rise" together - in the case of my pair they rise 5" or so - and then spawn. Then in a flash they dart back into the rocks. Time from spawn to settlement can vary, but from what I've read, can be anywhere from 30 days to 6 months. The larva right now are only 2mm and are very difficult to see up to 3-4 DPH.

Summary of egg to larval development: There seem to be several stages (hurtles) the eggs to larval fish go thru even before the transition to meta and settlement.
1st is the hatching of the eggs. I've seen with my collection that too much exposure to air and the shell seems to get hard and the eggs will develop but not hatch as well as being dipped out.
2nd is the development of the larval fish from the pro-larval fish. I've seen several failed pro-larval fish where the proto eyes(bumps only - no eyes) have developed but not gained difinition, Eyes have developed along with the digestive/stomach and pectorial fins, and finally with eyes developed and pigmented as well as the mouth developed.
I'm now into the 3rdwith full larval fish but I've got to get the numbers up which develop to this stage. Next will be to establish the first food viability and refinement of when/how much to add.

[Jasanden]

Here is a pic of my 2 potters angels. I have had them for about a year. Sorry about the lousy picture but the male is on the left and the transitioning female on the right. I say transitioning because both angels have about the same coverage of blue but the female you can see orange underneath where the males blue is so deep its almost black. For the amount of time i Have had the 2 in my 120 gal reef i would think the transition would be complete but the color makes me wonder.

And here is a solo shot of the male

[Radioheadx14]

Wow those are dark potters, the two i had were much more orange.

[Sport507]

Originally Posted by fla2341

humaguy: Thanks Stay tuned

moshi1ry: Thanks for your interest. The flame angels are pelagic spawners. They release their eggs into the water column. They eggs float initially. If you don't remove them ASAP they tend to end up as food, in the skimmer or as added nitrates. The male is the more dominate and larger of the pair. The male chases the female thru the rockwork for about 2-3 hours prior to spawning. They stop to check things out several times by poking their noses out of the rocks. At approx 1/2 hour prior to lights out the female will flare her fins infront of the male and the male will nudge the female's abdomen forming a "T". The pair will begin to "rise" together - in the case of my pair they rise 5" or so - and then spawn. Then in a flash they dart back into the rocks. Time from spawn to settlement can vary, but from what I've read, can be anywhere from 30 days to 6 months. The larva right now are only 2mm and are very difficult to see up to 3-4 DPH.

Summary of egg to larval development: There seem to be several stages (hurtles) the eggs to larval fish go thru even before the transition to meta and settlement.
1st is the hatching of the eggs. I've seen with my collection that too much exposure to air and the shell seems to get hard and the eggs will develop but not hatch as well as being dipped out.
2nd is the development of the larval fish from the pro-larval fish. I've seen several failed pro-larval fish where the proto eyes(bumps only - no eyes) have developed but not gained difinition, Eyes have developed along with the digestive/stomach and pectorial fins, and finally with eyes developed and pigmented as well as the mouth developed.
I'm now into the 3rdwith full larval fish but I've got to get the numbers up which develop to this stage. Next will be to establish the first food viability and refinement of when/how much to add.

Great posts, let me guess I'll bet you live somewhere in the Harbour Heights area?

[CaptCrash]

Congratulations on the progress you are making. Im going through an almost identical experience with Paracanthurus hepatus (Blue/Regal Tang).

I wish you all the best, Ill be following your progress with real interest, I would love to work with Flame Angel's in the future and your progress so far is really encouraging.

[fla2341]

Jasanden: That's a nice looking pair of Potters. You've had them for about a year now with no signs of spawning behaviour? Does the male chase the female close to lights out? Do they fight any? If I'm not mistaken Potters are found in deeper water then the Flames and might need a darkened area to help with the spawning response initially. Since yours have been in there for this long they might have become accustomed to the brighter environment. What sizes are they - approx. and how big were they when you got them and did they come as a pair or did you form them yourself? Questions, questions, questions....

Sport507: Nope. I live in FLA Just off I4. There are several Harbor Heights here but I live in none of them. Cape Canaveral, Punta Gorda/Charlotte Harbor and Ft. Lauderdale to name a few.

CaptCrash: Excellent. I want to try Yellow, Achillies and Powder Blue Tangs when I'm able to. Have you started a thread yet so I can tract your progress? Thank you for kind words. I'm attempting this with as little specialized equipment as possible. If I can bring just 1 thru meta and settlement then I will have exceeded my wildest dreams. What are your tank specs? etc..... I want to know about all breeding attempts/sucesses for these more difficult/impossible labled species. The only way we will learn is thru trial and error and while I can't breed everyone I want maybe someone else is or has tried and I want to know the who, what , where, why and whens.......

[fla2341]

The attached photo shows eggs I collected last night hatching. These eggs were spawned at 11:40pm last night and the photo was just taken at 1:00pm today. The water temp is 80-81 degrees F.

[CaptCrash]

I know what you mean with the other tangs, It would be great to be able to raise them.
My progress so far is recorded on the Marine Breeding Initiative site with all of the detail for my attempt so far http://www.mbisite.org/Forums/tm.aspx?m=63962
I even got some press (google search for "reefbuilder darren nancarrow") which was really cool.

My main tank is a 6x2x2 180G so nothing huge, I have two females and one male. They spawn every 2-3 days, often with both females within 30 seconds to an hour of each other.

Now i'm at a similar point to you, the hard part. Like you Im doing this at home, with just hobbyist level stuff, mostly I use 2L plastic containers and a desk lamp for heat/light. I collect eggs by scooping them from the tank before the other fish get them.
The best result is 18 days post spawn with 14 days quite reliably (with wild sourced zooplankton).
A friend just lent me a microscope so I can hopefully identify and then culture the food that is getting them going.

I know what you mean with the just one settled, it makes all the effort, expense and frustration so worth while.

Sorry for the thread hijack, but its almost like you and I have the exact same process and experience, just with a different species. The pictures are even similar.

[Landsailor]

Best of luck to you! Flames have always been one of my favorite fish.

Here's hoping to see a tank full of babies in your future.

I raised bettas once. Man, seeing a school of thirty bright blue, nickel sized dots swimming and turning all at once is pure joy. I bet flames would be incredible.

[fla2341]

CaptCrash: Awsome work. Any updates on your progress? Don't worry about a thread hijack I want to know about other attempts - like you said they look so similar. Being similar, missing 1st, 2nd and final foods might also be similar. A break through for you might lead to one for me or others & vice versa.

Landsailor: I know what you mean. I've raised all manner of fresh water fish ( including bettas, barbs, tetras, cichlids, rams, angelfish and discus) but few salt. Thanks for your support. I'll be happy with just 1 for starters. After that I'll get greedy and want a tank full.

[Jasanden]

Originally Posted by fla2341

Jasanden: That's a nice looking pair of Potters. You've had them for about a year now with no signs of spawning behaviour? Does the male chase the female close to lights out? Do they fight any? If I'm not mistaken Potters are found in deeper water then the Flames and might need a darkened area to help with the spawning response initially. Since yours have been in there for this long they might have become accustomed to the brighter environment. What sizes are they - approx. and how big were they when you got them and did they come as a pair or did you form them yourself? Questions, questions, questions....

No real spawning behavior that ive seen. they follow each other around grazing on the rocks most of the day occasionally going there seperate ways for some time. The male is about 3 1/4" and the female around2 1/4". They both have grown around 1/2" over the time ive had them. They did not come as a pair but were both purchased at the same time and acclimated together. They fought for about a week then just stayed away from each other for a while. After about 2 months they started hanging out together. My 120 is pretty heavily stocked so im thinking this could be an issue with spawning as well. Im soon switching things over to a new tank and may leave the potters in the 120 by them selves for a while to see what happens.

[fla2341]

The pair have been spawning every night since the 6th and each spawn has been 100+ eggs until last night. Last night's spawn was well over 200 eggs. However I can't get an exact count as I SPILLED THEM. I was able to count one egg cluster of 90 and another of 30 before knocking it over. There was at least another large cluster equal to or greater then the 1st, but while moving the microscope to take a pic I knocked over the container of eggs.

I still haven't broken the 6 DPH mark. Each time I am able to bring more thru to this point using the exposure to sunlight in the gallon jar method. It's not many 10-15 as opposed to 2-3 but it's still some progress and it's regular. At the 3-6 DPH mark it should be noted that they are very ready to eat something. They no longer just "go with the flow" of the currents but swim and float. A few times I noticed two which looked like they were striking at something. In addition once they pass the 3 DPH mark the black pigmentation is much more visable making them more visable.

So to date things I'm doing:
1. Increased the amount of mysis being fed to the pair. Feed last time @ 8pm .
2. Dip out, not seive out the eggs.
3. Sterilize the display tank water and jar the morning of the spawn.
4. Add 2 Ltrs of sterilized tank water as well as enough nanno to lightly tint the water.
5. Use open rigid tubing to provide approx 1 bubble per second air. This provides a slow current and keeps them in suspension and off the bottom.
6. Place jar in sunlight window so it gets 4-5 hrs direct sunlight.

Results: More make it thru to the 6 DPH mark.

[Blueline12]

Wow. This is excellent. I wish you the best of luck with your work.

[Luis A M]

I am following your progress with great interest!
Check: http://www.mbisite.org/Forums/tm.aspx?&m=52332&mpage=1
for mine and others work with pelagic spawners.

[fla2341]

Blueline12: Thank you. Stay tuned

Luis A M: Luis, thanks - I was hoping you would chime in. I've been reading about your and others progress for some time - that's what gave me inspiration, encouragement and some ideas to try. Got any new ones or advice? I'm going to check the mbi site later today after I get some sleep. I love that the Liopropoma carmabi has been cracked. Can the tangs (CaptCrash) be far behind?

[fla2341]

Dang it I just clicked on your link and now I'm hooked. I've not seen this thread before. I just started reading and should be thru soon.

[fla2341]

These are two short videos of the head standing behaviour. They are short due to the fact that they don't stay still long enough. They move out of the camera area too quickly, or by the time you've focused they've jetted off. You can see the lateral compression in the 5-6 DPH video as well as the pigmentation. I hope these help those who have not seen this in person to better understand what's being talked about.

video of a 2 DPH prolarva:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqGav...ature=youtu.be

video this time of a 5-6 DPH larval fish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJfeo...hannel&list=UL

[Luis A M]

Very nice larval vids!.The 2nd one shows a well developed larva with the large rear spot typical of all Centropyge larvae.Good luck and keep posted!

[fla2341]

Please take a look at these photos. Does this look like their feeding? This is a 6 DPH Live Larval fish I just pulled out. The only food I can think of which is in there is ciliates, detritus and algae of the proper size. I've not added anything else and most of the water was boiled prior to addition of the eggs and algae water.

[fla2341]

For those interested this video shows the bubble/flow rate in the larval fish jars. You can make out some larva floating/moving in the current.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZvo1...ature=youtu.be