Intelligent Design / Natural Filtration

[toruk]

Love this thread! I love the idea of a more natural tank and hate having a ton of equipment in or around my tank. I agree with many of the comments above. As a pretty new SW fish keeper(~3 years) I find that asking a simple question often leads to a lot of opinions and a lot of criticism. It seems no matter which path you chose its the wrong one to somebody and its hard to argue against people who have been keeping SW fish for decades.

None the less I think that is one of the best parts of keeping SW/Reef fish. The fact that there are so many paths to an amazing and healthy tank. I just wish people were not soooooo critical of each other and which equipment they use, etc.

Anyway love the thread will be tagging along hoping to learn something.

[Paul B]

When I started my reef the only book available was Robert Straughn's "The Salt Water Aquarium in the Home" which I think I still have. In there someplace (it could have been another publication at the time as my 50 year old memories faded substantially) he advised adding garden soil to start the tank. I don't remember if I ever did this and have no idea if that would have any benefits but even though I use a lot of strange methods the thought of that does scare me a little.
I realize many people don't live near the sea. I don't know why not, but that is a fact.
I know they sell bacteria in a bottle which I feel is silly but it would be nice if someone (not me) sold and shipped fresh mud from some clean, muddy bay like from where I live. It is probably not legal because some congressman will say if you do that you may get a batch of invasive arrow crabs in Arizona or an octopus plague in Lake Titicoca. (wherever that is)

[Nano sapiens]

Originally Posted by Paul B

In there someplace (it could have been another publication at the time as my 50 year old memories faded substantially) he advised adding garden soil to start the tank. I don't remember if I ever did this and have no idea if that would have any benefits but even though I use a lot of strange methods the thought of that does scare me a little.

Not so crazy, actually, since both terrestrial and aquatic environments depend on aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. There are multitudes of different bacterial species and many undoubtedly exist in a wide variety of different envirnoments.

[BlackTip]

@Subsea

Do you recommend adding bacteria in the bottle to a one year old reef tank? If so, what brand or type do you recommend?

Not everyone has Paul's backyard...

[Subsea]

Some bacteria will be short lived in our reef tanks. Particularly, the ones that produce enzymes for specific functions. At this time because of neglect with maintenance on a 6" DSB, I am adding bacteria once a week. If you're not having problems, a half dose once a month is good.

https://www.tlc-products.com/startsmart-complete/

This is the product that I recommend. I bought a gallon because of my large systems. It was more economical and shipping was free. While you are at the site, check on the science product information link.

[NS Mike D]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Some bacteria will be short lived in our reef tanks. Particularly, the ones that produce enzymes for specific functions. At this time because of neglect with maintenance on a 6" DSB, I am adding bacteria once a week. If you're not having problems, a half dose once a month is good.

https://www.tlc-products.com/startsmart-complete/

This is the product that I recommend. I bought a gallon because of my large systems. It was more economical and shipping was free. While you are at the site, check on the science product information link.

i found the scientific write up easy to follow and very useful, especially the part part about how most bacteria won't produce the enzymes that break down sludge if soluble micro nutrients are present.

than you for posting the link

[Green Chromis]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I think new sand from the Keys will be great. Probably one of the best things you could do. If you never add new bacteria, especially from the sea, you will be left with whatever the LFS has for bacteria which as we know, will not be the best choice or the most diverse. It will also probably have a large percentage of disease causing bacteria without the needed beneficial bacteria you will now have from the sea.
I add bacteria and mud a few times a year and get "reprimanded" for it. I run a reverse UG filter and get "reprimanded for it. I never quarantine and get "reprimanded for it. I create typhoons and get reprimanded for it. I dose driveway ice melter and baking soda and get reprimanded for it. I collect amphipods in the sea and dump them in my tank and get reprimanded for it. I also have the longest running very healthy system where everything spawns, but many people don't want to hear that because my methods can't possibly work. My fish also can't be immune as that is impossible so it must be luck. Of course my fish have never been exposed to velvet because that would crash my tank so I am really lucky. I got my fireclowns when Reagan was President. (I am not sure they voted for him or not) Of course I can't add any tangs because they are ich magnets and are never immune.
I am certainly not the God of fish, not the smartest one on here and my tank if far from the best tank on here and I am much better with fish than corals but in 60 years I have learned a lot of things not to do.

I have no opinion on Miracle Mud as I have never used it because I have access to real mud and it is free.

Thanks Paul, I have always used live sand from our local reef area's, one of the benefits of living in South Florida, don't know what I would do without it, how about mud from our grass flats, I would like to put some in the fuge,a five gallon bucket or two. Their are a lot of pristine mud flats in Florida Bay, and I would love to add the biodiversity to my system.

[Green Chromis]

Originally Posted by Nano sapiens

I find the Forums quite resistent to novel approaches that don't involve a lot of money, aren't Tech heavy and/or aren't sponsored by some big name commercial outfit. Now I'm all for skepticism, but when someone can show honest proof of results over an extended time period then I certainly take notice and explore the topic in more depth.

Adding natural sand/mud to your system has worked well for you and I can see the potential benefits. Since many reef keepers are land-locked and don't have access to the ocean, aquarists can do a few things that help ensure that the existing strains of bacteria in a healthy reef tank continue to thrive long-term.

I typically don't add new live sand or live rock once a reef system is established. MY LR and most of my LS is around 18 years old now and whatever bacterial strains the material has acquired do their jobs well. In order to keep the bacteria productive, I regularly remove detritus from the system which allows sufficient flow/nutrients to get to the bacteria as well as remove excess organic material from the system. The system gets a weekly 'Storm' treatment with a turkey baster, too, about an hour or so before I vacuum any detritus from the sand bed (advective principle used here to advantage). And equally important, no chemical substances of any kind to eradicate 'XYZ' pests or diseases added to the system as many of these can adversely effect the beneficial bacteria in the system.

Like I said, I am lucky to have access to the ocean and a boat, and living in South Florida also helps, but I do believe adding or replacing biodiversity to a system every so often really helps the system. This was the first time I changed my sand, and it was a mess, even after vacuuming it during every water change, and it is a pain in the you know what, to collect it and change it. But I believe it's worth it in the long run.

[Green Chromis]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Some bacteria will be short lived in our reef tanks. Particularly, the ones that produce enzymes for specific functions. At this time because of neglect with maintenance on a 6" DSB, I am adding bacteria once a week. If you're not having problems, a half dose once a month is good.

https://www.tlc-products.com/startsmart-complete/

This is the product that I recommend. I bought a gallon because of my large systems. It was more economical and shipping was free. While you are at the site, check on the science product information link.

Looks like a good product, and if I didn't have access to the reefs and ocean, I would do the same.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Timfish

I think I've heard your sermons before Pat ( ), but you still haven't posted your red and green grape cheviche recipe anywhere I now of. Seems like a good way to recoup some of the money I've spent on my tanks.

Because I have many vegan friends, I do not put protein into the vegetable ceviche. I prepare a spicey marinade for the fish, shrimp or squid and keep it in a seperate serving dish. I also keep the seaweed in a seperate dish because the Red Ogo will go from crisp to soft. For me, eating is as much about texture as taste.
The basic cheviche mix starts with onions, peppers and tomatoes, fresh out of the garden when the deer leave me some, but canned Rotelle tomatoes work well. As I am somewhat of a free spirit when in the kitchen, I often ad what I have in the refrigerator: cucumber, radish, squash, zucchini, and celery to name a few.
Lime juice is used liberally on everything. Or is it "You put the lime in the coconut and shake it all up"?

[NS Mike D]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Because I have many vegan friends, I do not put protein into the vegetable ceviche. I prepare a spicey marinade for the fish, shrimp or squid and keep it in a seperate serving dish. I also keep the seaweed in a seperate dish because the Red Ogo will go from crisp to soft. For me, eating is as much about texture as taste.
The basic cheviche mix starts with onions, peppers and tomatoes, fresh out of the garden when the deer leave me some, but canned Rotelle tomatoes work well. As I am somewhat of a free spirit when in the kitchen, I often ad what I have in the refrigerator: cucumber, radish, squash, zucchini, and celery to name a few.
Lime juice is used liberally on everything. Or is it "You put the lime in the coconut and shake it all up"?

pardon me for keeping the side discussion going ......


I'll have to check this out. I have a caribbean heritage and so ceviche is something that I grew up with. Then I met Peruvians who changed my entire approach and to ceviche. While I tend to gravitate to classic Peruvian ceviche, I was intrigued when you mentioned using the macro algae. A vegan ceviche never occurred to me.

BYW, a few quick tips from the Peruvian, soak the red onions in water for 15 minutes after slicing - it removes the sulfur. Also, they use msg (Accent) which makes a lot of sense from an asian "umame" point of view. But they season the fish separately and only mixed it with the rest of the ingredients at the last second. They also use a pepper called ricotto - wonderful pain/pleasure - and no wonder ceviche is their national hangover food.


No cilantro?

[Subsea]

[QUOTE=NS Mike D;24673911]pardon me for keeping the side discussion going ......


I'll have to check this out. I have a caribbean heritage and so ceviche is something that I grew up with. Then I met Peruvians who changed my entire approach and to ceviche. While I tend to gravitate to classic Peruvian ceviche, I was intrigued when you mentioned using the macro algae. A vegan ceviche never occurred to me.

BYW, a few quick tips from the Peruvian, soak the red onions in water for 15 minutes after slicing - it removes the sulfur. Also, they use msg (Accent) which makes a lot of sense from an asian "umame" point of view. But they season the fish separately and only mixed it with the rest of the ingredients at the last second. They also use a pepper called ricotto - wonderful pain/pleasure - and no wonder ceviche is their national hangover food.


Mike,
All discussion is relative. It is my thread. I like input, it adds to diversity of knowledge. I would not have known about the sulphur. The sulphur may be a unique characteristic of their soil and volcanic geologic activity. When I can, I use sweet onions, preferably Vadelia. Sometimes I use cilantro. When I make salsa dishes, I often use cilantro. It depends on what I have in the refrigerator and who the guest are.
Patrick

[JonezNReef]

Ive always wanted to know what sea weed I could eat. I am going to have to give this a try as it sounds quite appetizing. Ohh and fresh cilantro is great for removing metals such as mercury from the body so its def a good thing to add to foods from time to time.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by JonezNReef

Ive always wanted to know what sea weed I could eat. I am going to have to give this a try as it sounds quite appetizing. Ohh and fresh cilantro is great for removing metals such as mercury from the body so its def a good thing to add to foods from time to time.

Good to know about removing heavy metals like mercury from the body. Now, I can eat more marine fish.

Grape Caulerpa is a classic. For a delicate flavor, just add a little lime juice.

[NS Mike D]

[QUOTE=Subsea;24673951]

Originally Posted by NS Mike D

pardon me for keeping the side discussion going ......


I'll have to check this out. I have a caribbean heritage and so ceviche is something that I grew up with. Then I met Peruvians who changed my entire approach and to ceviche. While I tend to gravitate to classic Peruvian ceviche, I was intrigued when you mentioned using the macro algae. A vegan ceviche never occurred to me.

BYW, a few quick tips from the Peruvian, soak the red onions in water for 15 minutes after slicing - it removes the sulfur. Also, they use msg (Accent) which makes a lot of sense from an asian "umame" point of view. But they season the fish separately and only mixed it with the rest of the ingredients at the last second. They also use a pepper called ricotto - wonderful pain/pleasure - and no wonder ceviche is their national hangover food.


Mike,
All discussion is relative. It is my thread. I like input, it adds to diversity of knowledge. I would not have known about the sulphur. The sulphur may be a unique characteristic of their soil and volcanic geologic activity. When I can, I use sweet onions, preferably Vadelia. Sometimes I use cilantro. When I make salsa dishes, I often use cilantro. It depends on what I have in the refrigerator and who the guest are.
Patrick

Sweet onions, like vidallias, would not benefit from soaking, they are low sulphur to begin with so good to go as is. (I prefer to melt vidalias low and slow in my smoker and then put them on everything). Spanish, red and white onions, on the other hand, are the eye tearers. It's all a matter of personal preference. Some folks love raw onions, some don't.


Aside from the foodie talk, love the thread, very useful. That research paper on bacteria should be mandatory reading. I had a bottle of bacteria that I used when I first cycled my tank last year and ignored the part about maintenance. I figured once the colony was established, why would I need to continue to dose bacteria. Yesterday, I grabbed the bottle (still good to use) and started the maintenance routine.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by arlrkerene

While I think that foam fractionators are unnecessary to maintain a reef tank, they would be detrimental to a NPS tank biotheme

Is there a specific question here?

[OllieNZ]

Originally Posted by Subsea

Is there a specific question here?

The user would appear to be a spam bot of some description.....

[Paul B]

I just went crabbing and came home with about 14 of these beauties. I don't think they are vegans though. Some people call these a clean up crew, I call them dinner.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I just went crabbing and came home with about 14 of these beauties. I don't think they are vegans though. Some people call these a clean up crew, I call them dinner.

Paul,
You always add zest to a thread. What is your favorite recepi for crabs?

[Paul B]

That's easy. My family is Sicilian and like most Sicilians we eat a lot of seafood. My family was In the sea food business. My favorite is linguini and crabs that we make on Thanksgiving (along with the turkey because I am American from Brooklyn) Crabs make a very sweet sauce. I will collect another 20 or 30 crabs and freeze them until then. If I get more, we will eat them now.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Paul B

That's easy. My family is Sicilian and like most Sicilians we eat a lot of seafood. My family was In the sea food business. My favorite is linguini and crabs that we make on Thanksgiving (along with the turkey because I am American from Brooklyn) Crabs make a very sweet sauce. I will collect another 20 or 30 crabs and freeze them until then. If I get more, we will eat them now.

Now,that is a feist Famiy and food is always good.

Paul, when you talked about live shellfish, you mentioned two that were amost all gut. At the local HEB fish market, I can get live oysters, clams and muscells. Which is best?

[Paul B]

I use clams but I would imagine they are all good. Oysters are the most expensive.
Clams are the largest because you can get very large chowder clams that look like cannonballs

[BlackTip]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I use clams but I would imagine they are all good. Oysters are the most expensive.
Clams are the largest because you can get very large chowder clams that look like cannonballs

I tried to feed my fish oysters, but they didn't touch it.

I brought two row oysters home from a cookout party. I put them in a ziploc bag and placed them in the freezer. Few days later, I took one out and sliced few small pieces. Thawed them in water, and put them in the tank. My fish didn't touch them.

Did I do anything wrong?

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by BlackTip

I tried to feed my fish oysters, but they didn't touch it.

I brought two row oysters home from a cookout party. I put them in a ziploc bag and placed them in the freezer. Few days later, I took one out and sliced few small pieces. Thawed them in water, and put them in the tank. My fish didn't touch them.

Did I do anything wrong?

No, maybe your fish are vegans. Were the oysters raw? I have no idea why they won't eat them. Everything in my tank eats them.

[NS Mike D]

Originally Posted by Paul B

No, maybe your fish are vegans. Were the oysters raw? I have no idea why they won't eat them. Everything in my tank eats them.

probably ruined then by adding cocktail sauce, yuck

On clams, however, that is a different story, yum