Another Herbie thread! (With Poll)

[MurphyLong]

This one should be pretty simple...

My tank is a 125RR with corner overflows. Each one has 1" holes with 1" bulkheads. Currently it's setup with 1 as a return, and 1 as a drain (durso) on each side. What I was wondering is, could I just shorten 1 drain by about 6" (and add a gate valve under the tank) and use it for full-siphon, while keeping the other drain as an emergency drain.

What concerns would the community have with this idea?

...and before it gets suggested, I'm not plumping my returns behind the tank, I have a glass top.

[nereefpat]

If you are not willing to have two separate Herbie overflows, then I would leave it as is.

It wouldn't be safe or reliable as you describe.

[MurphyLong]

Originally Posted by nereefpat

If you are not willing to have two separate Herbie overflows, then I would leave it as is.

It wouldn't be safe or reliable as you describe.

Not being argumentative, but why would it be any less safe or reliable than dual dursos?

[mcgyvr]

Watch video..
Copy..
Enjoy..
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2595141

[MurphyLong]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Watch video..
Copy..
Enjoy..
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2595141

I'll have to go watch it on my phone, it's blocked at work.

[MurphyLong]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Watch video..
Copy..
Enjoy..
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2595141

Yeah, that won't work. I'm not plumbing behind the tank, I have glass tops.

[nereefpat]

Originally Posted by MurphyLong

Not being argumentative, but why would it be any less safe or reliable than dual dursos?

Sorry for the delay... office hours and whatnot.

In your case, the dursos are making some noise. That means they are approaching the limit to what they can handle, which is fine.

In a Herbie system, the emergency standpipes have to be able to handle all the flow from the return pump, should the syphon ever plug. In your case, you are thinking of removing half of the emergency drain capability, compared to if you did a standard dual Herbie setup.

W/o connecting the two chambers via a big PVC pipe, the regulation of water level between the two overflows would be impossible.

To close, I'm going to put words in your mouth. I think your question is "I have two standpipes. Why can't I make one into a syphon, and have one be the emergency?"

The answer is that in a Herbie or Been, the pipes need to be in the same overflow, or it won't function correctly, which equals unsafe. Hope that helps.

[MurphyLong]

Originally Posted by nereefpat

Sorry for the delay... office hours and whatnot.

In your case, the dursos are making some noise. That means they are approaching the limit to what they can handle, which is fine.

In a Herbie system, the emergency standpipes have to be able to handle all the flow from the return pump, should the syphon ever plug. In your case, you are thinking of removing half of the emergency drain capability, compared to if you did a standard dual Herbie setup.

W/o connecting the two chambers via a big PVC pipe, the regulation of water level between the two overflows would be impossible.

To close, I'm going to put words in your mouth. I think your question is "I have two standpipes. Why can't I make one into a syphon, and have one be the emergency?"

The answer is that in a Herbie or Been, the pipes need to be in the same overflow, or it won't function correctly, which equals unsafe. Hope that helps.

I'm tracking what you're saying, but I still feel like I am missing something in the equation...

If I have a 1.25" drain on the left that I have to lower flow with a gate-valve to achieve full siphon, (essentially lowering it's maximum flow capacity) and a "backup/emergency" 1.25" drain on the right- how is that less safe than dual dursos? Obviously the emergency drain, which will have no valve on it, will be able to handle the flow in an emergency situation, and would start flushing, which would definitely let me know there's something up.

Why would I need to regulate flow between the two corner overflows, if one would only be draining in an emergency? If siphon drain gets 100% blockage, water level would rise up, and start going down the emergency drain... How is this unsafe/unreliable?

[nereefpat]

It may be worth trying, although I don't like it, as long as you don't run any more water than the 1.25" emergency can handle by itself.

It's possible that the only problem you might have is stagnant water in the emergency side.

Does your glass top have the plastic strip on back? You could make cut-outs in those.

[MurphyLong]

Originally Posted by nereefpat

It may be worth trying, although I don't like it, as long as you don't run any more water than the 1.25" emergency can handle by itself.

It's possible that the only problem you might have is stagnant water in the emergency side.

Does your glass top have the plastic strip on back? You could make cut-outs in those.

Like I mentioned, if I have to gate the siphon drain somewhat closed to achieve full siphon without flushing, then the 2nd drain would definitely be able to handle it, with no valve.

The water wouldn't get stagnant for 2 reasons... The weir in my tank has a channel that runs from the lower portion of the tank to the top (not sure how to accurately describe it) but it pulls water from the lower tank-side, and puts it in the upper section of the overflow when the water cascades through the teeth, so while it would be a "cryptic" area, I don't think it would get stagnant. If it starts to, I have a tiny circulation pump I could put in there, or just have my siphon break on the return be inside the overflow area, constantly pushing water around.

I think the biggest challenge will be finding the perfect height for the emergency drain, so that it doesn't have water draining unless the siphon side has a blockage, but starts draining within the 1" between the teeth of the weir and the top of the tank.

I don't have the plastic strip on the glass top, but don't remember why I took it off... Even then, having the return come over the back wouldn't do anything I can't do without it. I could take my dual returns, and make 1 of them a 2nd emergency drain, and have only 1 return pipe.

[lmm1967]

you're gonna have some serious stagnation in the compartment with just the emergency.

[MurphyLong]

Originally Posted by MurphyLong

The water wouldn't get stagnant for 2 reasons... The weir in my tank has a channel that runs from the lower portion of the tank to the top (not sure how to accurately describe it) but it pulls water from the lower tank-side, and puts it in the upper section of the overflow when the water cascades through the teeth, so while it would be a "cryptic" area, I don't think it would get stagnant. If it starts to, I have a tiny circulation pump I could put in there, or just have my siphon break on the return be inside the overflow area, constantly pushing water around.

Originally Posted by lmm1967

you're gonna have some serious stagnation in the compartment with just the emergency.

I quoted above the remedy for stagnant water.

[lmm1967]

Originally Posted by MurphyLong

I quoted above the remedy for stagnant water.

The water level will be either - as high as the top of the overflow or as high as the rest of the tank - whichever level is lower.

If it's even with the top of the rest of the tank I don't see how you are going to get any flow unless, like you said, you place a small pump in that compartment.

The water is going to balance with whatever compartments are connected - in this case - the compartment with the drain and the tank itself. So your emergency would need to be above the water level in your tank for it to be normally dry. How much space are you planning on having at the the top of the tank? How far below your glass tops is the opening for the overflow going to be? I only have roughly 1/2" between normal water level and the top - that small amount of "spare" space would worry me.

[MurphyLong]

Originally Posted by lmm1967

The water level will be either - as high as the top of the overflow or as high as the rest of the tank - whichever level is lower.

If it's even with the top of the rest of the tank I don't see how you are going to get any flow unless, like you said, you place a small pump in that compartment.

The water is going to balance with whatever compartments are connected - in this case - the compartment with the drain and the tank itself. So your emergency would need to be above the water level in your tank for it to be normally dry. How much space are you planning on having at the the top of the tank? How far below your glass tops is the opening for the overflow going to be? I only have roughly 1/2" between normal water level and the top - that small amount of "spare" space would worry me.

The water in the DT flows through the weir, and there's roughly an inch from the bottom of the teeth to the rim of the tank where it would officially overflow on the floor. By having the emergency drain maybe 1/3" (making this number up until I get official measurements) taller than the current water level, it would still put me in a "safe zone" from flooding, but also keep the emergency drain dry. That "safe zone" would only be about 2/3" between the point the emergency drain starts flowing, and total spillage. The teeth on my weir are rather tall compared to my last tank.

Also, the return section of my sump is rather small (which was once a bad thing, but in this scenario could prove beneficial) because it's MAYBE 2-3 gallons. My skimmer section and my fuge section take up the bulk of the sump.

In order to prevent stagnant water, I can either drop the tiny circulation pump I have in there (it came with my son's first 1 gallon aquarium) and if that's not enough, put my siphon break in the return pipe towards the top of that overflow, which will constantly push new water in there- albeit a small amount.


I hope I'm not coming off as defensive or like "my mind is already made up," I'm just trying to make sure there isn't some major hurdle I'll be missing before I even get started.

Attached is a poor MSPaint rendition of a cross-section of my weir, which I think (possibly incorrectly) will aid in preventing stagnant water.

overflow.jpg

[lmm1967]

Not defensive at all.

Honestly - I'm just mainly throwing out thoughts - it always helps me to hear other's thoughts to point out the silly little things I don't seem to think of until I've either had it mentioned to me or I screw something up.

My honest opinion - I would do as the video posted above shows and either...
1. Trim 1 corner of the glass top and run the return over the top
2. Drill the back of the tank, add bulkhead(s) for the returns. With a solid plan this could probably be done without too much trouble. Drain the tank down 6 inches, drill from the inside out, go super slow etc. There is risk - but if managed it's very low risk.

One thing I believe might be a challenge - tuning that full siphon. The window of perfection for keeping the drain silent and steady all the time is going to be a very narrow. In a normal bean or Herbie the tuning of the full siphon is not all that touchy or narrow since the volume of water flowing through the open channel can vary quite a bit. This also accounts for changes in flow from things like your return pump getting dirty or slowing down. I believe you are going to find very fine adjustments are needed to keep water levels where you want them and the tank quiet.

Have you considered just doing a single return on one side? Your sump being low volume = you probably don't need all that much flow through it. Use powerheads for the in tank flow.

That would allow you to have a full siphon + return on one side, and the other side could be an emergency and open channel.

[MurphyLong]

Originally Posted by lmm1967

Not defensive at all.

Honestly - I'm just mainly throwing out thoughts - it always helps me to hear other's thoughts to point out the silly little things I don't seem to think of until I've either had it mentioned to me or I screw something up.

My honest opinion - I would do as the video posted above shows and either...
1. Trim 1 corner of the glass top and run the return over the top
2. Drill the back of the tank, add bulkhead(s) for the returns. With a solid plan this could probably be done without too much trouble. Drain the tank down 6 inches, drill from the inside out, go super slow etc. There is risk - but if managed it's very low risk.

One thing I believe might be a challenge - tuning that full siphon. The window of perfection for keeping the drain silent and steady all the time is going to be a very narrow. In a normal bean or Herbie the tuning of the full siphon is not all that touchy or narrow since the volume of water flowing through the open channel can vary quite a bit. This also accounts for changes in flow from things like your return pump getting dirty or slowing down. I believe you are going to find very fine adjustments are needed to keep water levels where you want them and the tank quiet.

...and there it is! I didn't think about the fact that it will have to be constantly tuned for variances in the return pump...

I guess I'll stick to my dursos, they're super quiet as is, just wanted to do something different.

[lmm1967]

Have you considered just doing a single return on one side? Your sump being low volume = you probably don't need all that much flow through it. Use powerheads for the in tank flow.

That would allow you to have a full siphon + return on one side, and the other side could be an emergency and open channel.

[MurphyLong]

Originally Posted by lmm1967

Have you considered just doing a single return on one side? Your sump being low volume = you probably don't need all that much flow through it. Use powerheads for the in tank flow.

That would allow you to have a full siphon + return on one side, and the other side could be an emergency and open channel.

I already have a gyre and 2 large PH's in the tank, so I've got all the flow I need in the DT, I also put in a T on the return pump to pump right back into the fuge, just to stir the chaeto up.

Having the siphon on one side with the return, plus the emergency and open channel on the other wouldn't be much different than what I was originally thinking. I'd still have to incorporate something to prevent stagnant water, and I'd still have to play the constant adjustment game on the gate valve to accommodate for the variances in my return pump. When I consider that, I think the dursos are a lot more set and forget than a Herbie...

[homer1475]

I only ever have to play with my herbie setup when I change filter socks. Obviously the resistance from a clean sock to a dirty one.

The minor fiddling with the adjustment is overblown.

[lmm1967]

Originally Posted by homer1475

I only ever have to play with my herbie setup when I change filter socks. Obviously the resistance from a clean sock to a dirty one.

The minor fiddling with the adjustment is overblown.

Not valid comparison in this instance. Your Herbie has all drains in a shared overflow compartment. OP has a different scenario.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[urban_s]

You can't have to much redundancy in a reef tank.

[tweetyfish]

I totally agree with homer1475. BTW, I do have duel overflows that I converted to Herbie's with return over the back.
What's the big deal with a tweak of a siphon valve every now and then? Quiet, smooth and simple. You will be glad you did!

[Daimyo68]

I have a 120g.

Left overflow has a 3/4" full siphon and a 1" emergency.

Right overflow has a 3/4" return, 1" emergency, and a rio 400 pumping water out of that overflow back into the tank (pump is at the bottom of the overflow, up through hose, and into the display via locline).

Works perfectly, dead silent.

Approx 900gph through the return and siphon

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[MurphyLong]

Originally Posted by Daimyo68

I have a 120g.

Left overflow has a 3/4" full siphon and a 1" emergency.

Right overflow has a 3/4" return, 1" emergency, and a rio 400 pumping water out of that overflow back into the tank (pump is at the bottom of the overflow, up through hose, and into the display via locline).

Works perfectly, dead silent.

Approx 900gph through the return and siphon

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Thanks, I was hoping someone with a similar setup would chime in! How long has it been setup that way? If you're doing it with 3/4, then I should surely be able to do it with 1" pipes.

[nereefpat]

That setup will work just fine:

One overflow has: syphon and emergency
Other overflow has: return and emergency

What I interpreted as the original plan, I don't like:

One overflow has: syphon and return
Other overflow has: emergency and return