could anyone identify this disease URGENT

dirk_brijs · 04/27/2016, 11:39 PM

ok the situation is this.
The tank is a 1700 gallon system with loads of fish in it a a few corals. All parameters are good with NItrates just showing a bit high at 40 but should be no issue looking at whats in the tank I believe.
The tank has been doing very well for about a year now (for detailed fish list you can check out the build thread of this tank here in RC)
So all fish doing realy well and eat like crazy look fat and all.
Friday I have a batch of dwarf angels for another tank and see I have one in overtall for that tank so add 1 yellow angel to the large tank. on Saturday we add 1 leather finger coral and one leather mushroom to the tank and all is still good. Now MOnday morning with feeding we see fish are not feeding as normal and we see one of our powder blues stuck on the overflow ready to die so at further inspection we see many more fish struggle. Tuesday we remove 2 death butterflies, 2 death anthias Wednesday we see most tangs start to feed again though still reluctant and much more skiddish as they used to be hiding in the rock all the time only 1 death clowfish seen. No today Thursday we film the clip of a clownfish struggling and have 1 more anthias lying on the floor as death though when caught it was still alive though we removed it anyway as it is dying.
On non of the fish any sign of Ick or any other skin lesions I think. The clown in the clip as maybe not really view able the skin looks like dry and rimpled and seem to have melted skin on his back fin?? in the clip which is filmed on the side (so top of tank is actually left side of the view) the clown goes up to the surface to let himself sink back down over and over again. All other fish seem to be behaving the same as last few days feeding reluctant and still hiding all the time??
what could be wrong and what disease did I clearly introduce into this system though the Yellow Angel (can a disease from 1 dwarf angel small size even spread that fast??) or through the rocks of the coral though they came from my own system and have been doing in an ok tank for over 3 years now.
anyone can help so we know what to treat tank with if treatable? large size of the tank does not help the situation here for sure I think
LINK to clip is this

Mr. Brooks · 04/28/2016, 12:12 AM

With the speed of the infection I'd guess it's marine velvet. Pretty brutal. Sorry for your losses. I'm not sure of the best course of action. In my experience it killed everything before I had a chance to do anything about it. You're best off googling marine velvet. To answer your question, yes, one fish can bring it in and it can spread that fast. You gotta QT everything.

snorvich · 04/28/2016, 03:52 AM

Marine velvet. What is your quarantine protocol?

krullshards · 04/28/2016, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

Marine velvet. What is your quarantine protocol?

Hey Steve,

A question... Based on reading this and this, I would have diagnosed Brook. Mainly due to the description of the skin being dry and "rimpled" (which I took to mean wrinkled) and the skin "melting" near the back fin.

Also in the video, the dorsal fin in particular looks frayed further leading to the conclusion that this is brook (according to those links).

I'm curious as to why the consensus reached here was Velvet? I'm trying to get better at diagnosing this stuff.

Thanks!

Mr. Brooks · 04/28/2016, 11:27 AM

I had thought Brook at first as well. But the rapid deaths of the other fish made me think it was velvet. I've never seen Brook wipe out a tank that fast before. But I'm no expert.

snorvich · 04/28/2016, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krullshards

Hey Steve,

A question... Based on reading this and this, I would have diagnosed Brook. Mainly due to the description of the skin being dry and "rimpled" (which I took to mean wrinkled) and the skin "melting" near the back fin.

Also in the video, the dorsal fin in particular looks frayed further leading to the conclusion that this is brook (according to those links).

I'm curious as to why the consensus reached here was Velvet? I'm trying to get better at diagnosing this stuff.

Thanks!

The video was insufficiently clear (my eyes are not wonderful) so I was diagnosing based on behavior and morality time line.

krullshards · 04/28/2016, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Brooks

I had thought Brook at first as well. But the rapid deaths of the other fish made me think it was velvet. I've never seen Brook wipe out a tank that fast before. But I'm no expert.

My friends had a couple of clowns. Once symptoms of brook started showing on one it quickly died followed soon after by the other clown and a goby. It did seem quick to me.

snorvich · 04/28/2016, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krullshards

My friends had a couple of clowns. Once symptoms of brook started showing on one it quickly died followed soon after by the other clown and a goby. It did seem quick to me.

I would need much more information than provided. As I said, I was guessing.

krullshards · 04/28/2016, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

I would need much more information than provided. As I said, I was guessing.

I totally understand. It's exceedingly difficult to provide answers to folks based on the limited information that is presented.
I know most folks appreciate the effort, I know I always have and have learned a lot.

I too am curious about the OP's quarantine procedure. With a 1700 gallon system, insufficient quarantine could be disastrous.

dirk_brijs · 04/28/2016, 06:22 PM

Hi guys previous the QT protocol was followed with all other fish though as mentioned for the 1 Yellow dwarf angel (Centropyge heraldi)
isnt brooks disease considered a clownfish disease? non of the clowns ever showed symptoms previous and no new clowns were added.
What more info would you guys need to help out?
I initially also thought of Velvet but non of the struggling fish show any sign of the velvet layer on their skin or any kind of white spots at all.
the general fish behavior is very shy and constant hiding fishes seem to become very inactive just sitting on top of a rock before they die. WE can almost sure pinpoint the next fish dying as they get this kind of behavior.
this a picture we took of one of the butterfly we tried to remove as he was showing mentioned behavior and died soon after. Not sure of those red spots could be an indicator as we have not seen any kind of spots on any of the other death fish though sure harder to spot as they were more colored and smaller.

ThRoewer · 04/28/2016, 06:34 PM

With clownfish my first guess would be brook or something like it, but the description and timeline sounds more like velvet.
With brook you would usually also see the whitish skin plaque and fin clamping.
Shy and hiding also speaks for velvet.

krullshards · 04/28/2016, 09:09 PM

I have very little knowledge of uronema but does anyone think those skin lesions could indicate uronema?

ThRoewer · 04/28/2016, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krullshards

I have very little knowledge of uronema but does anyone think those skin lesions could indicate uronema?

Yes, but uronema as a opportunistic parasite is usually not that virulent, otherwise there wouldn't be any fish alive on the reefs.

snorvich · 04/29/2016, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk_brijs

Hi guys previous the QT protocol was followed with all other fish though as mentioned for the 1 Yellow dwarf angel (Centropyge heraldi)

only takes one to destroy a tank

the general fish behavior is very shy and constant hiding fishes seem to become very inactive just sitting on top of a rock before they die.

reclusiveness suggests velvet

dirk_brijs · 04/29/2016, 06:35 AM

maybe these picture can help these are taken from a butterfly who is clearly suffering hanging against the glass as if he is saying please take pictures and get this diagnosed right....?
When trying to catch he though he is still moving extremely fast just to come back and hang against the glass.
wonder what all the red spots are all over his skin now are those secondary infections maybe?
The skin again has this dry flaky look to it.

trembz · 04/29/2016, 07:05 AM

Tagging along, I've had fish look exactly like that and never found the cause

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

dirk_brijs · 04/29/2016, 07:13 AM

after some loads of reading I think I am leaning the Brooklynella or Uronema path?
any concurs?

dirk_brijs · 04/29/2016, 10:08 AM

after sending my pictures and my story to WWM they came back with Cnidarian allelopathy can someone tell me more about this and what to do??? Cant find any info on it at all besides its a chemical warfare between corals.... They advise polyfilter, carbon (which I have in the system) and if needed remove all fish. For how long or till when ???
Keot asking for more details and confirmation but not much more info came about it all just say DO..... thank you and I did and now what?????
anyone more info on this?

snorvich · 04/29/2016, 10:15 AM

What corals are in your tank?

trembz · 04/29/2016, 10:41 AM

I've had symptoms EXACTLY like this but I keep a FOWLR, no corals...is this diagnosis for certain?

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

dirk_brijs · 04/29/2016, 10:45 AM

I have elegances, 1 devils hand leather (added at around the start of the outbreak so could be it) 1 cabbage leather (also just added though far from anything) and 1 I am not sure what it is but also leather kind. with which the devils hand was placed ... I have removed this coral from the system since than as it didnt look all to great to begin with.
and some neon greens though again they are far from anything else.
I am advised to install polyfilter and chemipur to get rid of the toxins which non is available in Thailand???

dirk_brijs · 04/29/2016, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trembz

I've had symptoms EXACTLY like this but I keep a FOWLR, no corals...is this diagnosis for certain?

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

the guy from WWM Bob Fenner was very sure in it saying I needed to stop asking and start listening to their advise which again I would love to but have non available?? Might need anyones help here

snorvich · 04/29/2016, 10:56 AM

Cnidarian allelopathy? Never heard of it affecting fish but I do not keep soft corals.

trembz · 04/29/2016, 11:53 AM

Seems a little off to be honest

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trembz · 04/29/2016, 11:57 AM

I should also add that my symptoms like this began a week after I added a clown tang.
The clown tang died a week after being introduced, and almost immediately after, fish started showing these exact symptoms and started dropping like flies .. tangs first, then angels, then dog face puffer... only a Tobi puffer survived

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

04/27/2016, 11:39 PM	#1
dirk_brijs Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Pattaya Thailand Posts: 1,457	could anyone identify this disease URGENT ok the situation is this. The tank is a 1700 gallon system with loads of fish in it a a few corals. All parameters are good with NItrates just showing a bit high at 40 but should be no issue looking at whats in the tank I believe. The tank has been doing very well for about a year now (for detailed fish list you can check out the build thread of this tank here in RC) So all fish doing realy well and eat like crazy look fat and all. Friday I have a batch of dwarf angels for another tank and see I have one in overtall for that tank so add 1 yellow angel to the large tank. on Saturday we add 1 leather finger coral and one leather mushroom to the tank and all is still good. Now MOnday morning with feeding we see fish are not feeding as normal and we see one of our powder blues stuck on the overflow ready to die so at further inspection we see many more fish struggle. Tuesday we remove 2 death butterflies, 2 death anthias Wednesday we see most tangs start to feed again though still reluctant and much more skiddish as they used to be hiding in the rock all the time only 1 death clowfish seen. No today Thursday we film the clip of a clownfish struggling and have 1 more anthias lying on the floor as death though when caught it was still alive though we removed it anyway as it is dying. On non of the fish any sign of Ick or any other skin lesions I think. The clown in the clip as maybe not really view able the skin looks like dry and rimpled and seem to have melted skin on his back fin?? in the clip which is filmed on the side (so top of tank is actually left side of the view) the clown goes up to the surface to let himself sink back down over and over again. All other fish seem to be behaving the same as last few days feeding reluctant and still hiding all the time?? what could be wrong and what disease did I clearly introduce into this system though the Yellow Angel (can a disease from 1 dwarf angel small size even spread that fast??) or through the rocks of the coral though they came from my own system and have been doing in an ok tank for over 3 years now. anyone can help so we know what to treat tank with if treatable? large size of the tank does not help the situation here for sure I think LINK to clip is this

04/28/2016, 03:52 AM	#3
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Outlander Posts: 40,953 Blog Entries: 46	Marine velvet. What is your quarantine protocol? __________________ Warmest regards, ~Steve~

04/28/2016, 06:34 PM	#11
ThRoewer Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 9,555	With clownfish my first guess would be brook or something like it, but the description and timeline sounds more like velvet. With brook you would usually also see the whitish skin plaque and fin clamping. Shy and hiding also speaks for velvet. __________________ Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio 3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...

04/29/2016, 10:15 AM	#19
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Outlander Posts: 40,953 Blog Entries: 46	What corals are in your tank? __________________ Warmest regards, ~Steve~

04/29/2016, 10:56 AM	#23
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Outlander Posts: 40,953 Blog Entries: 46	Cnidarian allelopathy? Never heard of it affecting fish but I do not keep soft corals. __________________ Warmest regards, ~Steve~

04/28/2016, 12:12 AM	#2
Mr. Brooks MASVC Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 3,477	With the speed of the infection I'd guess it's marine velvet. Pretty brutal. Sorry for your losses. I'm not sure of the best course of action. In my experience it killed everything before I had a chance to do anything about it. You're best off googling marine velvet. To answer your question, yes, one fish can bring it in and it can spread that fast. You gotta QT everything.

04/28/2016, 11:27 AM	#5
Mr. Brooks MASVC Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 3,477	I had thought Brook at first as well. But the rapid deaths of the other fish made me think it was velvet. I've never seen Brook wipe out a tank that fast before. But I'm no expert.

04/28/2016, 06:22 PM	#10
dirk_brijs Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Pattaya Thailand Posts: 1,457	Hi guys previous the QT protocol was followed with all other fish though as mentioned for the 1 Yellow dwarf angel (Centropyge heraldi) isnt brooks disease considered a clownfish disease? non of the clowns ever showed symptoms previous and no new clowns were added. What more info would you guys need to help out? I initially also thought of Velvet but non of the struggling fish show any sign of the velvet layer on their skin or any kind of white spots at all. the general fish behavior is very shy and constant hiding fishes seem to become very inactive just sitting on top of a rock before they die. WE can almost sure pinpoint the next fish dying as they get this kind of behavior. this a picture we took of one of the butterfly we tried to remove as he was showing mentioned behavior and died soon after. Not sure of those red spots could be an indicator as we have not seen any kind of spots on any of the other death fish though sure harder to spot as they were more colored and smaller.

04/28/2016, 09:09 PM	#12
krullshards Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Northern Va/DC Metro Posts: 201	I have very little knowledge of uronema but does anyone think those skin lesions could indicate uronema?

04/29/2016, 06:35 AM	#15
dirk_brijs Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Pattaya Thailand Posts: 1,457	maybe these picture can help these are taken from a butterfly who is clearly suffering hanging against the glass as if he is saying please take pictures and get this diagnosed right....? When trying to catch he though he is still moving extremely fast just to come back and hang against the glass. wonder what all the red spots are all over his skin now are those secondary infections maybe? The skin again has this dry flaky look to it.

04/29/2016, 07:05 AM	#16
trembz Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 245	Tagging along, I've had fish look exactly like that and never found the cause Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

04/29/2016, 07:13 AM	#17
dirk_brijs Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Pattaya Thailand Posts: 1,457	after some loads of reading I think I am leaning the Brooklynella or Uronema path? any concurs?

04/29/2016, 10:08 AM	#18
dirk_brijs Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Pattaya Thailand Posts: 1,457	after sending my pictures and my story to WWM they came back with Cnidarian allelopathy can someone tell me more about this and what to do??? Cant find any info on it at all besides its a chemical warfare between corals.... They advise polyfilter, carbon (which I have in the system) and if needed remove all fish. For how long or till when ??? Keot asking for more details and confirmation but not much more info came about it all just say DO..... thank you and I did and now what????? anyone more info on this?

04/29/2016, 10:41 AM	#20
trembz Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 245	I've had symptoms EXACTLY like this but I keep a FOWLR, no corals...is this diagnosis for certain? Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

04/29/2016, 10:45 AM	#21
dirk_brijs Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Pattaya Thailand Posts: 1,457	I have elegances, 1 devils hand leather (added at around the start of the outbreak so could be it) 1 cabbage leather (also just added though far from anything) and 1 I am not sure what it is but also leather kind. with which the devils hand was placed ... I have removed this coral from the system since than as it didnt look all to great to begin with. and some neon greens though again they are far from anything else. I am advised to install polyfilter and chemipur to get rid of the toxins which non is available in Thailand???

04/29/2016, 11:53 AM	#24
trembz Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 245	Seems a little off to be honest Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

04/29/2016, 11:57 AM	#25
trembz Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 245	I should also add that my symptoms like this began a week after I added a clown tang. The clown tang died a week after being introduced, and almost immediately after, fish started showing these exact symptoms and started dropping like flies .. tangs first, then angels, then dog face puffer... only a Tobi puffer survived Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk