Vinegar dosing

RBU1 · 02/04/2019, 06:52 PM

Ok. I’m up to 115ml a day dosing vinegar. My nitrates are around 25 on the salifert and my phosphate around 10 on the Hanna ULR. Should I increase my vinegar? Or should I be happy with what I’m at and leave it alone. I do also run GFO.

Genetics · 02/04/2019, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBU1

Ok. I’m up to 115ml a day dosing vinegar. My nitrates are around 25 on the salifert and my phosphate around 10 on the Hanna ULR. Should I increase my vinegar? Or should I be happy with what I’m at and leave it alone. I do also run GFO.

How large is your system?

RBU1 · 02/04/2019, 07:02 PM

150

Daddi0 · 02/04/2019, 07:07 PM

I was okay with 1ml per gallon of tank water per day.
Cheers! Mark

mcgyvr · 02/04/2019, 07:22 PM

If nitrate/phosphate levels have been decreasing then you can maintain or lower your dose... If not then raise it..plain and simple

RBU1 · 02/05/2019, 06:26 AM

Thanks, They seem to be maintaining at least on the nitrate side, Phosphates up and down based on how often I change the GFO and clean out the reactor pad to allow better flow thru the reactor. I raised it from 100ml to 115ml last week. Any idea how long it takes to typically see a drop in nitrates when the dose amount changes? Should I give it more time or raise up to 125ml?

Daddi0 · 02/05/2019, 08:19 AM

How long have you been dosing? Are you seeing any bacteria forming?
Cheers! Mark

Genetics · 02/05/2019, 11:25 AM

If everything else is doing well you could just do water changes and slowly bring down your nitrates.

RBU1 · 02/05/2019, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genetics

If everything else is doing well you could just do water changes and slowly bring down your nitrates.

Thanks, I do, have been doing weekly 25 gallon water changes since I started the tank 3 or so years ago.

reefgeezer · 02/05/2019, 02:10 PM

You 10 reading converts to roughly .037 ppm of phosphate if you are using a Hanna 736 ULR. It reads in ppb of phosphorus. That reading is great in and of itself. It may however indicate that the nitrate/phosphate levels are out of balance.

I point that out because if your phosphates are low and nitrates are high, the carbon dosing process can become limited. I would keep an eye on your phosphate level as you increase the vinegar dose.

hkgar · 02/05/2019, 03:52 PM

Like Mcgvr said, if "decreasing then you can maintain or lower your dose... If not then raise it..plain and simple". Yours are not decreasing so.......

bertoni · 02/05/2019, 10:34 PM

I agree that raising the dose might help with the nitrate level. Some water change might help, too, but maybe not. Tanks are strange beasts.

dkeller_nc · 02/09/2019, 09:55 AM

You've not said what sort of fish/corals you're keeping, but I'd guess that most of us would consider 37 ppb of phosphate to be extremely low. Definitely in the ultra low nutrient system range.

The general advice 5 or 6 years ago was less than 50 ppb phosphate in an SPS tank. Many, if not most, that have experience keeping SPS have rethought that range, and target somewhere in the 100 - 300 ppb range. The idea is that while seawater on a pristine natural reef may have nearly undetectable levels of phosphate and nitrate, that doesn't mean the reef is actually in an ultra low nutrient condition, because the corals are getting fed massive amounts of plankton, especially at night.

Since it's very difficult for us to replicate high plankton levels in our tanks, then a somewhat higher level of dissolved inorganic nutrients are preferred.

If this was my tank, I'd discontinue the use of GFO for a while, and frequently test the PO4 level to track its rise. You don't want to suddenly go to 1 ppm (1,000 ppb), since with those nitrate levels you're likely to have a massive algae outbreak. But I'd let it slowly rise to around 300 ppb, and monitor the nitrate concentration. You should see the nitrate level decrease considerably with that level of carbon dosing as bacteria consume the carbon, nitrate and phosphate.

RBU1 · 02/10/2019, 11:01 AM

The other day I woke up and my tank was cloudy. Can only assume I had a bacteria bloom. I lowered my vinegar from 115ml to 100ml.

bertoni · 02/10/2019, 11:31 PM

That sounds like a good precaution. I wonder how long it'll take to clear up.

reefgeezer · 02/11/2019, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkeller_nc

You've not said what sort of fish/corals you're keeping, but I'd guess that most of us would consider 37 ppb of phosphate to be extremely low. Definitely in the ultra low nutrient system range.

If my math's right... 37 ppm (not ppb) phosphate after the conversion from phosphorous read by the Hanna Checker (ULR)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkeller_nc

Many, if not most, that have experience keeping SPS have rethought that range, and target somewhere in the 100 - 300 ppb range.

My math sucks sometimes... Is that .1 to .3 ppm phosphate?

bertoni · 02/11/2019, 04:50 PM

37 ppb phosphorus is about 107 ppb phosphate, or about 0.1 ppm. That probably is a reasonable goal for a reef tank.

dkeller_nc · 02/12/2019, 08:30 AM

Reefgeezer -

The Hanna ULR (HI736) reports results as phosphorus in parts-per-billion. The conversion between phosphorus and phosphate is 3.7, so the 10 ppb on the Hanna ULR that the OP noted is actually 37 ppb as phosphate.

37 parts per billion phosphate is very, very low for a reef aquarium. You can get away with this if you're feeding plankton substitutes very heavily. But 37 ppb phosphate with not a lot of additional feeding may starve SPS corals (just ask a ZeoVit system neophyte that's driven his/her nutrient levels really low without supplemental feeding).

The reason I suggested discontinuation of the GFO to the OP for now is that he has high nitrates, and very, very low phosphates. In order for carbon dosing to work effectively, you'd like a balance of nitrates, phosphates, and carbon. If one of these are very low, it will limit bacterial growth and therefore limit the export of the nutrient you'd like to remove.

hkgar · 02/12/2019, 03:16 PM

https://hannainst.com/resources/aqua...nstruments.pdf

dkeller_nc · 02/12/2019, 05:55 PM

Oops, I stand corrected - left out a "0" between the 3 and the 7, so should've been 3.07, not 3.7.

Good catch!

bertoni · 02/12/2019, 10:38 PM

Yes, the conversion factor is 3, to enough significant digits for our purposes.

dkeller_nc · 02/13/2019, 07:52 AM

Well, there's always things like the Alkatronic or the Neptune Trident for the OCD among us. Kind of hard for me personally to imagine needing to test the tank for alk/Ca/Mg 4 times a day to a precision of 2 decimal places, but to each their own.

02/04/2019, 06:52 PM	#1
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	Vinegar dosing Ok. I’m up to 115ml a day dosing vinegar. My nitrates are around 25 on the salifert and my phosphate around 10 on the Hanna ULR. Should I increase my vinegar? Or should I be happy with what I’m at and leave it alone. I do also run GFO.

02/04/2019, 07:07 PM	#4
Daddi0 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Redwood City Posts: 1,354	I was okay with 1ml per gallon of tank water per day. Cheers! Mark __________________ 2x 65g displays with a 30g cryptic refugium and 30g sump - 55g reef 30g Bio-cube reef - I.M. 30g reef - 45g freshwater

02/04/2019, 07:22 PM	#5
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	If nitrate/phosphate levels have been decreasing then you can maintain or lower your dose... If not then raise it..plain and simple __________________ Who me?

02/05/2019, 08:19 AM	#7
Daddi0 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Redwood City Posts: 1,354	How long have you been dosing? Are you seeing any bacteria forming? Cheers! Mark __________________ 2x 65g displays with a 30g cryptic refugium and 30g sump - 55g reef 30g Bio-cube reef - I.M. 30g reef - 45g freshwater

02/05/2019, 11:25 AM	#8
Genetics Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Ontario, Ohio Posts: 4,937	If everything else is doing well you could just do water changes and slowly bring down your nitrates. __________________ Nate Current Tank Info: 15g Waterbox cube

02/04/2019, 07:02 PM	#3
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	150

02/05/2019, 06:26 AM	#6
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	Thanks, They seem to be maintaining at least on the nitrate side, Phosphates up and down based on how often I change the GFO and clean out the reactor pad to allow better flow thru the reactor. I raised it from 100ml to 115ml last week. Any idea how long it takes to typically see a drop in nitrates when the dose amount changes? Should I give it more time or raise up to 125ml?

02/05/2019, 02:10 PM	#10
reefgeezer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 2,621	You 10 reading converts to roughly .037 ppm of phosphate if you are using a Hanna 736 ULR. It reads in ppb of phosphorus. That reading is great in and of itself. It may however indicate that the nitrate/phosphate levels are out of balance. I point that out because if your phosphates are low and nitrates are high, the carbon dosing process can become limited. I would keep an eye on your phosphate level as you increase the vinegar dose. __________________ John, Current Tank Info: In-process, 90 Gallon SPS Reef

02/05/2019, 03:52 PM	#11
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	Like Mcgvr said, if "decreasing then you can maintain or lower your dose... If not then raise it..plain and simple". Yours are not decreasing so....... __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

02/05/2019, 10:34 PM	#12
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I agree that raising the dose might help with the nitrate level. Some water change might help, too, but maybe not. Tanks are strange beasts. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/09/2019, 09:55 AM	#13
dkeller_nc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Central NC Posts: 5,062	You've not said what sort of fish/corals you're keeping, but I'd guess that most of us would consider 37 ppb of phosphate to be extremely low. Definitely in the ultra low nutrient system range. The general advice 5 or 6 years ago was less than 50 ppb phosphate in an SPS tank. Many, if not most, that have experience keeping SPS have rethought that range, and target somewhere in the 100 - 300 ppb range. The idea is that while seawater on a pristine natural reef may have nearly undetectable levels of phosphate and nitrate, that doesn't mean the reef is actually in an ultra low nutrient condition, because the corals are getting fed massive amounts of plankton, especially at night. Since it's very difficult for us to replicate high plankton levels in our tanks, then a somewhat higher level of dissolved inorganic nutrients are preferred. If this was my tank, I'd discontinue the use of GFO for a while, and frequently test the PO4 level to track its rise. You don't want to suddenly go to 1 ppm (1,000 ppb), since with those nitrate levels you're likely to have a massive algae outbreak. But I'd let it slowly rise to around 300 ppb, and monitor the nitrate concentration. You should see the nitrate level decrease considerably with that level of carbon dosing as bacteria consume the carbon, nitrate and phosphate.

02/10/2019, 11:01 AM	#14
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	The other day I woke up and my tank was cloudy. Can only assume I had a bacteria bloom. I lowered my vinegar from 115ml to 100ml.

02/10/2019, 11:31 PM	#15
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	That sounds like a good precaution. I wonder how long it'll take to clear up. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/11/2019, 04:50 PM	#17
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	37 ppb phosphorus is about 107 ppb phosphate, or about 0.1 ppm. That probably is a reasonable goal for a reef tank. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/12/2019, 08:30 AM	#18
dkeller_nc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Central NC Posts: 5,062	Reefgeezer - The Hanna ULR (HI736) reports results as phosphorus in parts-per-billion. The conversion between phosphorus and phosphate is 3.7, so the 10 ppb on the Hanna ULR that the OP noted is actually 37 ppb as phosphate. 37 parts per billion phosphate is very, very low for a reef aquarium. You can get away with this if you're feeding plankton substitutes very heavily. But 37 ppb phosphate with not a lot of additional feeding may starve SPS corals (just ask a ZeoVit system neophyte that's driven his/her nutrient levels really low without supplemental feeding). The reason I suggested discontinuation of the GFO to the OP for now is that he has high nitrates, and very, very low phosphates. In order for carbon dosing to work effectively, you'd like a balance of nitrates, phosphates, and carbon. If one of these are very low, it will limit bacterial growth and therefore limit the export of the nutrient you'd like to remove.

02/12/2019, 03:16 PM	#19
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	https://hannainst.com/resources/aqua...nstruments.pdf __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

02/12/2019, 05:55 PM	#20
dkeller_nc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Central NC Posts: 5,062	Oops, I stand corrected - left out a "0" between the 3 and the 7, so should've been 3.07, not 3.7. Good catch!

02/12/2019, 10:38 PM	#21
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Yes, the conversion factor is 3, to enough significant digits for our purposes. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/13/2019, 07:52 AM	#22
dkeller_nc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Central NC Posts: 5,062	Well, there's always things like the Alkatronic or the Neptune Trident for the OCD among us. Kind of hard for me personally to imagine needing to test the tank for alk/Ca/Mg 4 times a day to a precision of 2 decimal places, but to each their own.