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Unread 07/10/2007, 09:39 PM   #101
happyface888
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Yeah every fish I had always swims near it and gets stinged by them. than they go bouncing against the sand a few times and continue to swim like nothing happened. What are other hardy inverts?


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Unread 07/10/2007, 11:09 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichConley
No, it doesnt.

If you dont buy the dyed ones, people will stop wasting their time dying them. Brown ones are perfectly suitable, and very hardy animals.
The problem is people are buying the dyed ones and they're often not aware of them being dyed. That is preceisely why there is a mentionof them on the list. As for your comments about BTAs... In WI and IL I've seen one total BTA that was captively propagated at a LFS compared to hundreds of wild collected. I'd be surprised if even 10 percent of the BTAs in the hobby are captively raised. Perhaps you have someone in your area that had an anemone farm going, but that's by no means common. Hopefully it will be some day soon. The thing about BTAS is that if you get an undamaged specimen they can be pretty hardy, but they seem especially prone to damage during collection. I still contend that anemones aren't a good choice for a mixed reef, but that's not a hard fast rule as it certainly can be done with success.

Kahuna, thanks for the responses you made while I was offline.


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Unread 07/10/2007, 11:53 PM   #103
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Your welcome Peter, thanks for doing all that you do. I really hear what Rich is saying with the propagated BTA's and I think these are a viable option for the aquarist who really wants an anemone. I sure see a lot of folks offering propagated rose anemones here in So Cal and I think this is a good start. I am pretty pleased the way this hobby has headed the last few decades with all of the farm raised livestock and the way people are using the internet to find out about unscrupulous practices like dyeing anemones and drug fish collection. There is just so much more information available now than there was back in the day. I am so glad your list is stickied here Peter and I'm going to do my part to get as many folks to read it as possible. Thanks again.

On a side note I think you need to add banded angels (Apolemichthys arcuatus) to the list, I think they are as touchy as a regal.


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Unread 07/11/2007, 02:18 AM   #104
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FWIW I think "the list" could do without the cute-sy comment about the stingray barb to the chest.

This is a good list for total newbs I think, but as many have pointed out there are exceptions to every rule, so many of these animals should not be ruled out completely, but those with more experience who wish to attempt to keep them should take into consideration their specific needs. As to the problem with dyed anemones, should we also include colt corals, turbinarias, and the many other hardy corals that turn up dyed as well?


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Unread 07/11/2007, 12:04 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monti
FWIW I think "the list" could do without the cute-sy comment about the stingray barb to the chest.

This is a good list for total newbs I think, but as many have pointed out there are exceptions to every rule, so many of these animals should not be ruled out completely, but those with more experience who wish to attempt to keep them should take into consideration their specific needs. As to the problem with dyed anemones, should we also include colt corals, turbinarias, and the many other hardy corals that turn up dyed as well?
It really wasn't an intended to be a "cute-sy" comment. It's the truth and for anyone that thinks that was a reference to Stev Irwin he wasn't the first nor was he the last to get hit in the chest by a Stingray.

The list is geared towards beginners but at the same time I know of people that have been in this hobby for many years that don't realize the requirements of a lot of these fish. I ran into someone just last week that has been in this hobby for 7 years and he was looking to add a Twinspot Wrasse to his 75 gallon tank... Perhaps I'll make a general note about dyed creatures, though I can't even recall the last time I saw something dyed besides an anemone.


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Unread 07/11/2007, 12:20 PM   #106
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Just making a note to myself to add the Horseshoe crab, Larabicus quadrilineatus, and Bandit Angel (Apolemichthys arcuatus).


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Unread 07/11/2007, 12:31 PM   #107
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I've seen dyed pagodas and sinularia not too long ago.


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Unread 07/11/2007, 12:58 PM   #108
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I am curious to why the Cleaner wrasse is on the list, can some one please explain why a little further?


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Unread 07/11/2007, 02:11 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by pledosophy


Seadragons are not legally available in the trade,
My post was in error. They are legal to trade in the U.S. just no one imports them.

Reading the list again you list seahorses as needing a constant supply of live nutritous food. Aquacultured CB seahorses can be fed frozen food exclusivley through there life. WC's and TR seahorses will be more prone to only accepting live. Just a sidenote.

I agree completely with adding the horse shoe crab. Too many buy them small and don't realize how big they will get.

On the leapord wrasse might also want to add the macrogeoffrey, also called the Potter's Leapord. Same concerns as with the other leapords although not as common.

Last note, I do think using common names would be more helpful to newbs. Most don't know latin and even some LFS owners don't as well. Just a suggestion.

Keep it up. Sorry your getting so much Flak for such an outstanding effort.


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Unread 07/11/2007, 02:23 PM   #110
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Peter, I know nothing about the midwest.



But you can't even get wild caught BTAs out here on the east coast. Theyre too expensive to get compared to propogated ones.


You literally cant GIVE THEM AWAY.


Need a BTA in good condition? PAH. I've seen them go through powerheads, and then sprout up all over the tank. Theyre alot hardier than pretty much anything other than Zoos.


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Unread 07/11/2007, 03:42 PM   #111
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i kept a BTA in a 10 gallon tank with a 10 watt flourescent bulb and it literally quadrupled in size in about 7 months. It was a very simple tank and it thrived. I then tried one in a 29 gallon with PC lights and it hasn't grown at all... I would put them in the hardy category for the most part


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Unread 07/11/2007, 06:09 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pandomime
I am curious to why the Cleaner wrasse is on the list, can some one please explain why a little further?
The majority of them will not live long in captivity because they don't have a large enough supply of their natural food source. On ocassion they will accept prepared foods but I've also heard reports of that just slowing down the starvation process.


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Unread 07/11/2007, 06:15 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichConley
Peter, I know nothing about the midwest.



But you can't even get wild caught BTAs out here on the east coast. Theyre too expensive to get compared to propogated ones.


You literally cant GIVE THEM AWAY.


Need a BTA in good condition? PAH. I've seen them go through powerheads, and then sprout up all over the tank. Theyre alot hardier than pretty much anything other than Zoos.
Perhaps in your area, but I'd be really surprised (pleasantly) if they are that widely available throughout the east coast.

On the flip side of you scenario of BTAs surviving stress like that... I've seen stores get 5 or so of them in and have every single one of the die within a week or two. They're not particulalrly good stores, but they're not awful either. They have no problems keep many types of corals, but they still lose a ton of BTAs. I do agree that they are the hardiest of the clown anemone and I'll make a note of that when I revise the list.


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Unread 07/11/2007, 07:36 PM   #114
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Offtopic but what are some other hardy inverts? That are like the tube anemone?


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Unread 07/11/2007, 07:36 PM   #115
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I would agree with rich about the east coast BTA's. I dunno about not being able to give them away but they are pretty common in the clubs


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Unread 07/11/2007, 07:56 PM   #116
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Is BTA blue tip anemone or bubble tip anemone and are they available over in Cali?


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Unread 07/11/2007, 08:00 PM   #117
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BTA = bubble tip anemone or bulb anemone. Common here in cali.


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Unread 07/11/2007, 08:00 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by happyface888
Is BTA blue tip anemone or bubble tip anemone and are they available over in Cali?
It's bubble tip anemone and they're pretty widely available. Whether or not aquacultured specimens are available mostly depends on if someone has an anemone prop system in their hme in your area. I know of no large scale anemone propagation efforts, though the Bubble Tip anemone could be an excellent speimen for such a venture.


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Unread 07/11/2007, 11:41 PM   #119
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Quote:
I am curious to why the Cleaner wrasse is on the list, can some one please explain why a little further?
In addition to what Peter said there is also quite a bit of evidence that removing cleaner wrasse from wild reefs is very detrimental to those reefs and in those areas where a lot of cleaner wrasse collection is done the fish there are noticeably less healthy. Not only do these fish have a dismal record in captivity but removing them harms wild reefs. The Hawaiin cleaner wrasse is illegal to collect there for these reasons.


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Unread 07/12/2007, 01:35 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kahuna Tuna
In addition to what Peter said there is also quite a bit of evidence that removing cleaner wrasse from wild reefs is very detrimental to those reefs and in those areas where a lot of cleaner wrasse collection is done the fish there are noticeably less healthy.
Eh? The only study I'm aware of that examined this (from Australia) concluded that removing cleaner wrasses had no discernible negative effects. In any case, nobody complains about collecting cleaner shrimps, which ought to have the same consequences as catching the wrasses.

Overcollecting of yellow tangs probably hurts the reef more than removal of cleaner wrasses, yet they remain one of the most popular species for aquarists. How many of you have a yellow tang in your tank?

Quote:
The Hawaiin cleaner wrasse is illegal to collect there for these reasons.
Nope. Collecting cleaner wrasses here is perfectly legal. Many divers don't catch them on principle, but there's no law against it.

Cleaner wrasses can learn to eat artificial foods just like other fish, and can be kept in captivity successfully. However, they're delicate fish in general and aren't easy to maintain. They belong in the "expert care only" section, rather than the "absolutely don't purchase ever" section. Other fish, such as leopard wrasses and tamarind wrasses, have similar success/failure rates.

I'm not trying to promote the irresponsible purchase of difficult-to-keep fish, but most of the claims about cleaner wrasses are just plain wrong. It'd make a good Myth Busters eposide.

Quote:
Cyanide and bleach are the two most common substances used, though there might be others I'm not aware of.
AFAIK bleach isn't used much for aquarium fish. Occasionally you hear reports of guys getting arrested for it, but they're always targetting food fish.

Quinaldine and clove oil are both used in areas where they're legal. Both are supposed to be safe if used properly, but they can kill fish if the concentration is too high.


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Unread 07/12/2007, 01:48 PM   #121
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Quote:
Eh? The only study I'm aware of that examined this (from Australia) concluded that removing cleaner wrasses had no discernible negative effects.
I've read numerous studies over the years showing detrimental effects of removing cleaners from the reef. Here a quote from one showing how reef fish congregate around cleaning stations. I found this after searching for about two minutes

"Slobodkin and Fishelson (1974), working in the Red Sea, studied the influence of the cleaner wrasse, Labroides dimidiatus, on the distribution of other fishes on the reefs off Eilat. They deployed a 10m transect line along the reef slope. They then stopped at the end of the 10m line, moved out perpendicularly from the reef face about 5m, and counted all fishes coming within 1m of either side of the transect's end during a 20-minute survey period. This procedure was repeated 60 times so that 600m of reef face was systematically surveyed. Slobodkin and Fishelson were able to convincingly demonstrate that cleaning wrasse territories acted as a focus for the aggregation of other reef fishes."

Quote:
Overcollecting of yellow tangs probably hurts the reef more than removal of cleaner wrasses, yet they remain one of the most popular species for aquarists.
So, this is OK with you?

Quote:
Many divers don't catch them on principle, but there's no law against it.
I heard there was, if there isn't maybe there should be. Sounds like there is a few responsible collectors out there, thats a start.

Quote:
Cleaner wrasses can learn to eat artificial foods just like other fish, and can be kept in captivity successfully.
This is the rare exception and not the rule. Thousands die for each one that lives.

Quote:
I'm not trying to promote the irresponsible purchase of difficult-to-keep fish
I beg to differ, thats exactly what you are doing.

From Bob Fenner.

"This is the genus of obligate Cleaner Wrasses most celebrated for establishing stations in the wild that are frequented by "local" reef fishes and pelagics for removing parasites and necrotic tissue. Perhaps shocking to most aquarists, all the Labroides rate a dismal (3) in survivability, even the ubiquitously offered common or Blue Cleaner Wrasse, Labroides dimidiatus. None of the Labroides should be removed, not only for the fact that almost all perish within a few weeks of wild capture, but for the valuable role they play as cleaners."

"On with the issue at hand. One of the wrasse family's fifty eight genera is Labroides, with five described species. The most commonly available is the black, blue and white lined Labroides dimidiatus; the other four have other colors, cost much more money (a few to several tens of dollars U.S.) and should not be offered to the hobby, or encouraged to be so by their purchase."

"Obligates by definition get all or virtually all their nutrient from their cleaning activity; various species setting up permanent cleaning stations with "customer" hosts coming in for regular grooming. Experimental removal of some of these cleaners has demonstrated their immense importance as parasite controls. Local and even large pelagic fish populations are quickly negatively impacted by their removal. Fish populations drop or migrate and remaining fishes lose fitness as measured by increased external parasite loads, sores and torn fins. Casual diving with the four multi-colorful Labroides species reveals that they are of limited numbers and closely defined distribution. When they are removed, the whole reef population suffers."

"Further, these species have not been kept for any length of time in captivity, most dying within a few days to weeks due to a lack of nutritive interaction with host fishes. I have heard stories and seen the endemic Hawaiian cleaner, Labroides phthirophagus accepting dry prepared, freeze-dried, fresh and live foods, still only to waste away and die."


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Unread 07/12/2007, 02:34 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Eichler
It's bubble tip anemone and they're pretty widely available. Whether or not aquacultured specimens are available mostly depends on if someone has an anemone prop system in their hme in your area. I know of no large scale anemone propagation efforts, though the Bubble Tip anemone could be an excellent speimen for such a venture.
Peter, nobody around here has an anemone prop system that I know of.

its more of the case that everyone who has one, within a year, has 5 or 6. Theyre SO easy to keep and grow/reproduce so quickly that you dont need a prop system.


Theyre pretty much unsellable from Maine all the way down into DC It may go further, but I haven't checked places out any further south than that.


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Unread 07/12/2007, 05:56 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichConley
Peter, nobody around here has an anemone prop system that I know of.

its more of the case that everyone who has one, within a year, has 5 or 6. Theyre SO easy to keep and grow/reproduce so quickly that you dont need a prop system.


Theyre pretty much unsellable from Maine all the way down into DC It may go further, but I haven't checked places out any further south than that.
Come to Western/Upstate New York. (Somewhat between Maine and DC...)

They're anything but unsellable.


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Unread 07/12/2007, 06:29 PM   #124
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Nice comprehensive list. Thanks for the hard work, Peter.


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Unread 07/12/2007, 09:16 PM   #125
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Would still appreciate some more feedback on the Potter's since I'm seriously considering adding it to the second part of the list. More feedback on the Blue Reef Chromis is appreciated as well.


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