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Old 04/15/2019, 04:51 AM   #1
Tanthaitrung
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Sohal no eating

Dear all,

My sohal was in tank (217 gallon) from August 2017. He is now ablout 12 inches.

From March 31st I dose RedSea NO3-PO4:X 30ml daily to control NO3. From 13th Saturday my Sohal was not eating, his skin does not show any strange thing, all the others tang are eating well and the parameters are good.

Could you please help me?

Thanks so much



Last edited by Tanthaitrung; 04/15/2019 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 04/15/2019, 06:45 PM   #2
HumbleFish
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Any new fish added recently? Or a new coral or invert?


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Old 04/15/2019, 06:58 PM   #3
Tanthaitrung
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Thanks Humblefish
Yes, some peppermint shrimps and a copperbanded was add few days ago to treated aiptasia
I dipped the copperbanded 5’ with RO and 1 hour with Seachem Paraguard before adding tank



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Old 04/16/2019, 10:02 AM   #4
Uncle99
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Carbon dosing lowers available oxygen in the column and this is a big fish.
Make sure you have, or continue to provide good flow and break the surface.
Watch behaviour very carefully And be ready to treat all quickly in QT, if
A parasite is suspected
What is the level of nitrate your trying to lower?



Last edited by Uncle99; 04/16/2019 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 04/16/2019, 10:06 AM   #5
HumbleFish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthaitrung View Post
Thanks Humblefish
Yes, some peppermint shrimps and a copperbanded was add few days ago to treated aiptasia
I dipped the copperbanded 5’ with RO and 1 hour with Seachem Paraguard before adding tank
It's possible for some parasites (and other pathogens) to survive a 5 min FW dip + Paraguard bath.

I'm not saying these new additions are for sure the cause, but if this is the only recent change I would be watching your fish population closely. In addition to white sprinkles and other visible physical symptoms of parasites, it is important to observe for these key behavioral symptoms as well:

1. Reduced or complete loss of appetite.

2. Heavy breathing, scratching, flashing, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior

3. Swimming into the flow of a water pump/wavemaker/powerhead (unique to Marine Velvet Disease).

4. Acting reclusive (velvet causes fish to be sensitive to light).


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Old 04/16/2019, 05:55 PM   #6
Tanthaitrung
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle99 View Post
Carbon dosing lowers available oxygen in the column and this is a big fish.
Make sure you have, or continue to provide good flow and break the surface.
Watch behaviour very carefully And be ready to treat all quickly in QT, if
A parasite is suspected
What is the level of nitrate your trying to lower?
Thanks for your response
The nitrate is now ~10, my target is 2.5 - 5


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Old 04/16/2019, 05:57 PM   #7
Tanthaitrung
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Thanks so much Humblefish
I will follow your advice


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Old 04/17/2019, 06:10 PM   #8
Tanthaitrung
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Dear HumbleFish,

I watched him carefully and he has the behavioral symptoms as you said.

I just picked him out, and dipped him in 3 liters of new saltwater with 15 drops of Formalin MS for 50 minutes.

He is now in a 3 gallon new saltwater plastic container with an air pump and 6 drops of Formalin MS.

I’m planning to leave him there until the day after tomorrow, then discarding the water, changing another plastic container and the air stones, doing one more dip and leaving two days with 3 gallons of new saltwater + 6 drops of Formalin MS then bringing him to the quarantine tank.

What do you think about my plan?

The instruction of Formalin MS said: “Use 2 drops per gallon of aquarium water every other day ...” That means every 2 days?

Does the Formalin MS has expiry?

Thanks


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Old 04/17/2019, 09:15 PM   #9
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37% formaldehyde (active ingredient found in Formalin-MS) has ~ 2 year shelf life.

With regards to your plan, did you notice the fish swimming into the flow of a powerhead?

If so, that is a strong indicator of Marine Velvet Disease: https://humble.fish/velvet/


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Old 04/18/2019, 06:24 PM   #10
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Could you please show me how to read manufacturing date?

Most of time he swims normally. Sometimes hiding, scratching, standing in front of the power head. I’m not sure it’s ich or velvet but all other tangs are normal.

Formalin MS can treat ich and velvet?


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Old 04/18/2019, 08:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Could you please show me how to read manufacturing date?

Most of time he swims normally. Sometimes hiding, scratching, standing in front of the power head. Iím not sure itís ich or velvet but all other tangs are normal.

Formalin MS can treat ich and velvet?
Formalin can provide temporary relief, but only copper (or Chloroquine) can reliably eradicate both parasites.


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Old 04/18/2019, 09:32 PM   #12
Tanthaitrung
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Could you please show me how to read manufacturing date?


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Old 04/18/2019, 10:38 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthaitrung View Post
Could you please show me how to read manufacturing date?
I'm not really familiar with Formalin-MS. Is there not an expiration date somewhere on the bottle? The company that made it (FishVet) is now out of business.


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Old 04/18/2019, 11:57 PM   #14
Tanthaitrung
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Thanks so much for your help


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Old 05/07/2019, 12:01 AM   #15
Tanthaitrung
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Formalin can provide temporary relief, but only copper (or Chloroquine) can reliably eradicate both parasites.
Hi HumbleFish,

1- Chloroquine Phosphate and Cupramine. Which one is better and safer?

2- Could you please show me how to treat with Chloroquine Phosphate?

3- Do I have to turn off skimmer? Activated carbon can remove CP after treating?

4- Can I use CP-500mg that sold in pharmacy?

Thanks
Khanh


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Old 05/07/2019, 10:20 AM   #16
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1- Chloroquine Phosphate and Cupramine. Which one is better and safer?
For the time being probably copper (Cupramine) because it can be tested to ensure a therapeutic level is being maintained. No practical test kit exists for Chloroquine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthaitrung View Post
2- Could you please show me how to treat with Chloroquine Phosphate?
You dose once and treat for 30 days. Dosage range is 10-20 mg/L. However, Chloroquine is susceptible to biodegradation so its best to treat in a sterile QT and control ammonia with reducers + water changes.

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3- Do I have to turn off skimmer? Activated carbon can remove CP after treating?
I would turn off the skimmer, and carbon does remove CP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthaitrung View Post
4- Can I use CP-500mg that sold in pharmacy?
You can, but if using the tablets then know that 500 mg tablets have an equivalence of 300 mg chloroquine base. So, you'd want to dose according to the available chloroquine base.


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Old 05/07/2019, 06:37 PM   #17
Tanthaitrung
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Thanks so much HumbleFish,

Seachem told me his ionic copper (Cupramine) is not absorbed into rocks or substrate and itís safer than chelated copper. But the fish treatment guidelines from reef 2 reef said the chelated is the safer.

- Who is right?

- Do you think activated carbon can remove Cupramine (ionic), Coppersafe (chelated) from rocks and substrate?

Best regards
Khanh


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Old 05/07/2019, 08:14 PM   #18
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Well, Seachem is wrong (or lying) about ionic copper not being absorbable. I've never really been impressed with their tech support.

As far as which copper is better, it probably just comes down to personal preference. I prefer chelated copper primarily because it has a wider therapeutic range. So more leeway to play with.


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Old 05/07/2019, 08:19 PM   #19
Tanthaitrung
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So activated carbon can not remove 100% both copper from rocks and substrate?


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Old 05/09/2019, 04:54 PM   #20
Tanthaitrung
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If you don’t mind, I some questions

1- Activated carbon can remove most of medicines like CP, General Cure ... from rocks, substrate, except ionic & chelated copper?

2- Coppersafe, Copper Power are chelated copper. Coppersafe instruction is 1.5 - 2ppm and Copper Power is 2.5ppm. Somebody told the instruction of Copper Power was wrong. I’ve got a bottle of Copper Power on hand, should I keep 1.75ppm when treating?

3- I’ve got a quarantine tank with live rocks, I think it’s not good if treating fish in this tank with copper or CP. It’s will be better if the fish is treated in the tank without rocks and substrate. Am I right?

4- I saw your instructions from humble.fish. That the treating period can be shortened by transferring fish to quarantine tank after 2 weeks of treament. Do you think 8 days treating with copper or CP + tank transfer method (transferring every 48 hour x 4) can eradicate ich and velvet?

Thanks in advance
Khanh


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Old 05/09/2019, 07:11 PM   #21
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Quote:
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1- Activated carbon can remove most of medicines like CP, General Cure ... from rocks, substrate, except ionic & chelated copper?
Yes, but only if the medication being stored by the rock has been released back into the water column. At least with copper its a back & forth situation - the rock absorbs copper, releases copper, rinse & repeat. A poly filter or Cuprisorb is best at removing copper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthaitrung View Post
2- Coppersafe, Copper Power are chelated copper. Coppersafe instruction is 1.5 - 2ppm and Copper Power is 2.5ppm. Somebody told the instruction of Copper Power was wrong. Iíve got a bottle of Copper Power on hand, should I keep 1.75ppm when treating?
1.5 - 2ppm is therapeutic range for chelated copper. Copper Power recommends overdosing out of an abundance of caution because most fish will handle 2.5 just fine. However, 1.75 is a good "middle-of-the-road" to aim for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthaitrung View Post
3- Iíve got a quarantine tank with live rocks, I think itís not good if treating fish in this tank with copper or CP. Itís will be better if the fish is treated in the tank without rocks and substrate. Am I right?
Yes, however a sand substrate won't absorb meds as much as rock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthaitrung View Post
4- I saw your instructions from humble.fish. That the treating period can be shortened by transferring fish to quarantine tank after 2 weeks of treament. Do you think 8 days treating with copper or CP + tank transfer method (transferring every 48 hour x 4) can eradicate ich and velvet?
Technically yes, but 8 days is cutting it a little too close IMHO. 14 days allows for more leeway and margin for error.


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Old 05/09/2019, 07:16 PM   #22
Tanthaitrung
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Many thanks HumbleFish


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Old 05/12/2019, 06:30 PM   #23
Tanthaitrung
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Dear HumbleFish

I saw this information from your site:

Copper Power at 1.0 ppm, verified using the*Hanna Instruments*High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702).
Over the next 48 hours, slowly raise your copper level to 1.75 ppm in gradual increments. You are now at a therapeutic copper level. Add to this*metronidazole. If using 100% metronidazole powder, dose 25*mg per gallon. Otherwise follow the maximum dosing instructions for whatever product (e.g. Seachem Metroplex) you are using.

- Chelated copper is started at 1ppm. After adding fish, slowly raise copper to 1.75ppm in 48 hours. That means the 30 day clock starts on day 3?

- Why do we add metronidazole to copper treatment but don’t do this with CP?

- We can use ammonia reducer when treating with CP, but can not use it with copper. Am I right?

Best regards
Khanh


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Old 05/12/2019, 07:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthaitrung View Post
- Chelated copper is started at 1ppm. After adding fish, slowly raise copper to 1.75ppm in 48 hours. That means the 30 day clock starts on day 3?
The 30 day clock starts once copper has reached 1.75ppm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthaitrung View Post
- Why do we add metronidazole to copper treatment but donít do this with CP?
Chloroquine treats ich, velvet, brook, uronema. To achieve the same treatment coverage with copper you have to add metro to the mix. Copper treats ich + velvet; Metro treats brook + uronema.

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- We can use ammonia reducer when treating with CP, but can not use it with copper. Am I right?
Correct


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Old 05/12/2019, 08:28 PM   #25
Tanthaitrung
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How long should we rise the copper up to 1.75ppm? 48, 72 or 96 hours?


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