Performing PO4 experiment relating to SPS color/growth

[Timfish]

Originally Posted by greengeco82

Not seeing the reaction i wanted. I will probably stop this experiment soon. . .

Since it takes weeks to months for corals to make new fluorescing and chromo proteins I think you should keep running this experiment a while longer. But if you're really trying to get bright colors corals make fluorescing proteins and put them above their zooxanthellae in response to light levels brighter than the zooxantheallae want.

[greengeco82]

Originally Posted by Timfish

But if you're really trying to get bright colors corals make fluorescing proteins and put them above their zooxanthellae in response to light levels brighter than the zooxantheallae want.

Do you care to elaborate? With complete respect, I have no idea what you are referring to.

[greengeco82]

Day 21 compare
Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 21 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]
Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 21 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]
Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 21 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

[greengeco82]

The last coral along with a few others in my tank seems to go through a cycle of burnt tips. Its very obvious in the Day 21 picture. Its been happening 6+ months. Seems to happen about every 10 days. Then recovers nicely, then burns again. Not sure why, but NO3 is between 30 and 40.

[bertoni]

Because the corals are getting burnt tips, I'd consider trying to reduce the nutrient load. Although burnt tips are more commonly associated with low nutrient levels, higher levels might cause issues, too.

[Timfish]

Originally Posted by greengeco82

Do you care to elaborate? With complete respect, I have no idea what you are referring to.

First, you're seeing if you can make your corals brighter. It takes corals awhile to make new or additional fluorescing proteins so they look brighter. Instead of running your experiment for just a few weeks I think you should consider running it for several months.

Maybe this will help clarify why corals make thier fluorescing protiens, there are at least 4 primary purposes.

1. Photoprotection When the light is too intense for the zooxanthellae the fluorescing oragnelles are placed above them shading them, reducing the amount of light they recieve. As the light levels increase the coral makes more proteins intensifying the colors.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../408850a0.html
https://researchonline.jcu.edu.au/42...et_al_2006.pdf

2. Photoenhancement. If the light is not bright enough for the zooxantheallae to work at optimum photosynthetic effeceincy the fluorescing organelles are located behind them with respect to the light source so they receive increased light levels.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../408850a0.html
https://researchonline.jcu.edu.au/42...et_al_2006.pdf
(With ULNS methods starving the corals makes them look brighter because the zooxanthellae numbers are restricted reducing thier brown componet to the corals coloration.)

3. As antioxidants. The fluorescing proteins are used to neutralize the free radicals caused by photosythesis.
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...s_Antioxidants

4. As an Immune response. Fluorescing proteins are used by the corals immune system to deal with parasites.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/25470724...n_tab_contents

[greengeco82]

Thanks Tim Fish for the clarification. This is new info for me. cant change the intensity, but I can increase the duration of lighting. I have my halides running for 7 hours. I could try bumping that to 8 or 9 hours.

[taricha]

Following. Please keep it up.

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[Wiskey]

I agree! Please do keep up the experiment!

Another thing that might be causing tip burn is Alk. For ULNS 7dkh might be a better value.

Whiskey

[greengeco82]

Originally Posted by taricha

Following. Please keep it up.

Thanks for the encouragement.

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[QUOTE=Wiskey;25055041]I agree! Please do keep up the experiment!

Thanks, I will.

[Optionman]

My contribution to the discussion. Recently added (2/5/17) SPS frags. My phosphates run roughly .5 (Hanna) and nitrates 50 (Salifert). no algae issues. My Alk has always run high (10-11) (Hanna)
IMG_2799.jpgIMG_3030.jpgIMG_3603.jpg


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[Optionman]

Continued:IMG_2992.jpgIMG_3598.jpgIMG_2748.jpgIMG_3600.jpg


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[bif24701]

Originally Posted by Timfish

First, you're seeing if you can make your corals brighter. It takes corals awhile to make new or additional fluorescing proteins so they look brighter. Instead of running your experiment for just a few weeks I think you should consider running it for several months.

Maybe this will help clarify why corals make thier fluorescing protiens, there are at least 4 primary purposes.

1. Photoprotection When the light is too intense for the zooxanthellae the fluorescing oragnelles are placed above them shading them, reducing the amount of light they recieve. As the light levels increase the coral makes more proteins intensifying the colors.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../408850a0.html
https://researchonline.jcu.edu.au/42...et_al_2006.pdf

2. Photoenhancement. If the light is not bright enough for the zooxantheallae to work at optimum photosynthetic effeceincy the fluorescing organelles are located behind them with respect to the light source so they receive increased light levels.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../408850a0.html
https://researchonline.jcu.edu.au/42...et_al_2006.pdf
(With ULNS methods starving the corals makes them look brighter because the zooxanthellae numbers are restricted reducing thier brown componet to the corals coloration.)

3. As antioxidants. The fluorescing proteins are used to neutralize the free radicals caused by photosythesis.
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...s_Antioxidants

4. As an Immune response. Fluorescing proteins are used by the corals immune system to deal with parasites.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/25470724...n_tab_contents

Now my question is what method would produce the brighter colors? Protector enhancement?






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[taricha]

Originally Posted by bif24701

Now my question is what method would produce the brighter colors? Protector enhancement?






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Yes. In theory, a combination of high light, with generous uv component (corals really wanna protect symbiont from that) and low nutrients to keep the symbiont from growing much will give you lots of fluorescent proteins, and not much brown symbiont to dull the color.
But it's debatable whether that is actually good for the coral host, even in theory - set aside the practical difficulty of balancing the tightrope.

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[greengeco82]

Day 31
Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 31 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]
Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 31 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]
Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 31 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

Since the last update, I increased lighting from 6 hours to 8 hours a day. When I had low nutrients in the past, everything would bleach out. Now corals seem to be taking the increased lighting with no ill effects.

[bertoni]

It's interesting that you can increase the lighting. I'll be interested to see how this shapes up.

[taricha]

Originally Posted by greengeco82

Day 31



Since the last update, I increased lighting from 6 hours to 8 hours a day. When I had low nutrients in the past, everything would bleach out. Now corals seem to be taking the increased lighting with no ill effects.

This paper argues precisely that P out of balance too low makes coral more susceptible to bleaching. Cool that you seem to be confirming this in a tank setting.


"P starvation reduces the photosynthetic capacity (Fv/Fm < 0.5) and renders the corals susceptible to heat/light stress. Alternatively, P starvation might result when zooxanthellae growing under nutrient replete conditions are deprived of P while nitrogen levels remain high."

[Magik]

Originally Posted by taricha

This paper argues precisely that P out of balance too low makes coral more susceptible to bleaching. Cool that you seem to be confirming this in a tank setting.


"P starvation reduces the photosynthetic capacity (Fv/Fm < 0.5) and renders the corals susceptible to heat/light stress. Alternatively, P starvation might result when zooxanthellae growing under nutrient replete conditions are deprived of P while nitrogen levels remain high."

Very interesting! What would happen in high P04, low N03 water? That what I got in my tank, nitrates undetectable (<0.25ppm), phosphates 0.09ppm (Hanna ULR).

[greengeco82]

Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 39 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]
Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 39 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]
Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 39 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

[greengeco82]

Overall a lot of growth. No noticeable color change IMO. Pics are taken under 2 x SE 250w, 14k Hamilton, halides. My frag rack is getting heavy, so I think its time to sell them off.

[Timfish]

Originally Posted by Timfish

First, you're seeing if you can make your corals brighter. It takes corals awhile to make new or additional fluorescing proteins so they look brighter. Instead of running your experiment for just a few weeks I think you should consider running it for several months.

Maybe this will help clarify why corals make thier fluorescing protiens, there are at least 4 primary purposes.

1. Photoprotection When the light is too intense for the zooxanthellae the fluorescing oragnelles are placed above them shading them, reducing the amount of light they recieve. As the light levels increase the coral makes more proteins intensifying the colors.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../408850a0.html
https://researchonline.jcu.edu.au/42...et_al_2006.pdf
https://www.academia.edu/9996109/The_role_of_host_based_color_and_fluorescent_pigments_in_photoprotection_and_in_reducing_bleaching_s tress_in_corals

2. Photoenhancement. If the light is not bright enough for the zooxantheallae to work at optimum photosynthetic effeceincy the fluorescing organelles are located behind them with respect to the light source so they receive increased light levels.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../408850a0.html
https://researchonline.jcu.edu.au/42...et_al_2006.pdf
https://www.academia.edu/9996109/The_role_of_host_based_color_and_fluorescent_pigments_in_photoprotection_and_in_reducing_bleaching_s tress_in_corals
(With ULNS methods starving the corals makes them look brighter because the zooxanthellae numbers are restricted reducing thier brown componet to the corals coloration.)

3. As antioxidants. The fluorescing proteins are used to neutralize the free radicals caused by photosythesis.
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...s_Antioxidants

4. As an Immune response. Fluorescing proteins are used by the corals immune system to deal with parasites.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/25470724...n_tab_contents

Just an update, I was reviewing some stuff and found a refference link was no longer valid. New link is in red.