In-wall 380gal tank - cut out options

[karimwassef]

The 4 returns (2 opposing surge and 2 opposing main return) are positioned to allow the MT to have 2" of sand on the bottom.

The 2 main returns are on the bottom pointing up and towards the rocks (front right, back left). The 2 surge returns are mid to high. One front left and pointed at the rocks and up. The other back right and pointed at the front glass. I'll Mae a diagram to show what I means.

[karimwassef]

Double post

[karimwassef]

Double post again

[Prestigious]

No GFO.
The DSB is 24" x 24" and 6" deep in the middle section.
The macro algae is on an eggcrate and PVC pedestal in the 12" of water over the DSB. Harvesting this is the primary phosphate export.
The surge source is a pump at the tank level, not from the sump. The surge reservoir and MT form one cycle. The MT and sump form a separate cycle. The surge will flow into the sump, and that's why the sump's last section is oversized.

In terms of a refugium with DSB, why would I want it to be remote instead of in the main flow (except for maintenance)?

Maint is the main reason, the other reason is its easier to keep high flow across the bed (preventing settling) but with your sump design it looks like you "might" have some decent flow across it.

On the topic of phosphates I can tell you that with a chaeto fuge being the only phosphate export, you will have problems fighting phosphates unless your skimmer is highly efficient at removing organics, your constantly mechanically removing detritus, or you just dont have all that many fish and/or barely feed them. Your sand bed might just have a big enough footprint to handle nitrate export which could actually hinder your chaeto growth which will limit its ability at exporting phosphate. In my experiences Chaeto doesnt handle phosphates all that well.... a lot of people have trouble with having it control phosphates on 75, 90, and 120 gallon systems..... now scale that up to your size.

If you want low nutrients then run GFO with that DSB (or try chaeto but at least plan on the likely possibly of needing to run GFO) OR do as I suggested and scratch your planned chaeto&DSB and go with an algae scrubber. They are literally exactly like a Chaeto fuge but much much more efficient at growing algae. The recommended size suggested for algae scrubbers are based on how much food will be put in the system... since you run a skimmer you could get away with about half the recommended size. The suggested sizing is based on skimmerless systems.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...77420&page=131

Then again you may be planning on wanting a somewhat high nutrient system for soft corals/mixed reef? My main points are for low low nutrient SPS type systems.... plus my tanks/fish get fed A LOT (min 3x a day feeding for me!).

[karimwassef]

I'm a big fan of big skimming. I'm planning on an 8' tall 6-8" diameter dual injected Beckett (dedicated recirculating MD55RLXT). The input is around 1500 GPH from a Reeflo Dart. This should be a beast.

There will be 4 parallel socks at the beginning of the sump for mechanical filtration. There will be one foam block but not in the main flow path. It's in the opening over the DSB to keep the water at the sand surface from becoming the main flow path.

I have not had a scrubber but a macro farm and DSB produced my healthiest fauna tank. That just made everyone in the tank happy.

Not big on large fish. Prefer lots of little fish and a lot of sps.

I really want as natural a design as possible. Protein skimming is natural... so is a calcium reactor and Kalkwasser reactor... those simulate real mechanisms in nature. the DSB and macro farm do too.

I may consider a phosphate or nitrate reactor but that would be a little like admitting defeat.

[110galreef]

Again just throwing this out there as so many people jump to GFO, ATS, Bio Pellets, DSB fuges' etc....to soon especially on a big tank setup...

I am ONLY running a skimmer (good one not oversized), skimm moderate to a tad wet, only do about 10% WC every 3-4 mos, SPS dominate and have great success and colors.
Have a pretty decent fish stock and feed pretty good as all tangs are nice and fat!

0 nitrates, and PO4 levels in the in the <5 ppb on hanna hi 736 checker.

I try to keep the setup as EASY and maintenence free as possible. Only add what extra (fuge or DSB)you want for a reason like growing pods or added bacteria or pod diversity is my input.

GFO, fuge, excees WC's, DSB, etc to me usually are a waste of extra $$, time and maintenece....

Again my insight on a larger setup.

[karimwassef]

I agree. But, what is excees WC?

[Prestigious]

Again just throwing this out there as so many people jump to GFO, ATS, Bio Pellets, DSB fuges' etc....to soon especially on a big tank setup...

I am ONLY running a skimmer (good one not oversized), skimm moderate to a tad wet, only do about 10% WC every 3-4 mos, SPS dominate and have great success and colors.
Have a pretty decent fish stock and feed pretty good as all tangs are nice and fat!

0 nitrates, and PO4 levels in the in the <5 ppb on hanna hi 736 checker.

I try to keep the setup as EASY and maintenence free as possible. Only add what extra (fuge or DSB)you want for a reason like growing pods or added bacteria or pod diversity is my input.

GFO, fuge, excees WC's, DSB, etc to me usually are a waste of extra $$, time and maintenece....

Again my insight on a larger setup

What size tank? How old of a tank? How much sand? Do you remove detritus through filter socks or blowing rocks/pumping the sump?

Phosphate cannot and will not ever just go away or magically leave the system unless physically removed or consumed by something (corals for instance). Algae doesnt even remove phosphate, it actually uses it to build its structure... removing the algae from the system will thus remove the phosphate.

If your water volume is large and your feeding is small and your skimming is wet... it could take some time to saturate your water with nitrate/phosphate....your skimmer is probably pulling 80-95% of the excess feed so only 5-20% of your small feeding is resulting in nutrient build up. Now factor in your corals consuming these nutrients as well and you potentially may never get climbing levels. Also, its important to note that you probably have sand in your DT... even if its a SSB you will get phosphate absorption from the sand (think of it like a sponge). Eventually this sponge will get full and your phosphate levels might start climbing.

I do definitely agree with you on the over/excess WCs people do. Good/cheap source of nutrient export in volumes less than 90 gallons but over that it gets really ridiculous. A properly setup/maintained tank wont need WCs unless its to replace trace elements (which can also be supplemented without the use of WCs)

[110galreef]

Originally Posted by Prestigious

What size tank? How old of a tank? How much sand? Do you remove detritus through filter socks or blowing rocks/pumping the sump?

Phosphate cannot and will not ever just go away or magically leave the system unless physically removed or consumed by something (corals for instance). Algae doesnt even remove phosphate, it actually uses it to build its structure... removing the algae from the system will thus remove the phosphate.

If your water volume is large and your feeding is small and your skimming is wet... it could take some time to saturate your water with nitrate/phosphate....your skimmer is probably pulling 80-95% of the excess feed so only 5-20% of your small feeding is resulting in nutrient build up. Now factor in your corals consuming these nutrients as well and you potentially may never get climbing levels. Also, its important to note that you probably have sand in your DT... even if its a SSB you will get phosphate absorption from the sand (think of it like a sponge). Eventually this sponge will get full and your phosphate levels might start climbing.

I do definitely agree with you on the over/excess WCs people do. Good/cheap source of nutrient export in volumes less than 90 gallons but over that it gets really ridiculous. A properly setup/maintained tank wont need WCs unless its to replace trace elements (which can also be supplemented without the use of WCs)

net water volume of system is about 325g. about 25 fish, 5 tangs and a trigger and few small angels, 5 wrasses and about 10 other smaller fish like chromis & what not.... feed mostly frozen, but add stuff like reef chilli and reef roids 1-2x's a week as PO4 is usually close to 0.

I have about 40# of sand total, just enuf to cover that e=bottom. I do stir it up often as well as try to vacuum when I do a WC. Tanks is abotu 28mos old now.
My skimmer pulls about 1 gallon of skimmate every 10 days.

I dose 2 part to maintain alk, cal & mg....

[karimwassef]

110galreef and prestigious, I really appreciate both your perspectives and experience. This is the largest indoor reef I have put together to date, so some elements will be unknown. There's lots of ways to skin this cat and I'm looking to find mine. Your input helps inform and educate.

I'm making changes to my sump by adding windows to my plywood. I'll update the sump and return piping images.

[karimwassef]

Ok. So it was too messy creating my return flow and reef structure using software. So I decided to create an 8:1 scale model of my tank and then use pipe cleaners and modeling clay. I Chose 8:1 so the 1/8th inch acrylic would be close.

Here's the tank:

[karimwassef]

Note that the end to end overflow is a significant element.

Next, here are the two returns (alternating sinusoidal flow):



One return is at the back left corner. The other is in the top right.

[karimwassef]

The two surge overflows:



The first (blue) is in the front left high, the second (purple)is back right mid level. I know it doesn't look like it is mid level but the pipe cleaners are harder to position than I thought

[karimwassef]

Next is the rock work: Thorite with PVC cores and eggcrate walls on the overflow and right side.

[karimwassef]

The construction is based on pillars and platforms so it is almost a facade skin of multiple levels or coral placement with a skeleton underneath.

Integrating the rock work and pipes for flow:

[karimwassef]

[karimwassef]

What do you guys think?

[Prestigious]

hahahah I love your miny model! lolll

It looks good to me. IS that a return line going to the bottom? I hope you got some siphon protection.

Your rock looks good, just makes sure not to over rock/aquascape. Think more of coral scape.

[karimwassef]

Yes. There's a 3/4" siphon break near the top.

The plan is to create open branch platforms with pillars instead of dense rocks for support. I'm putting rigid airline tubing in the thorite molding process to create future anchor points for corals ... Even on vertical faces.

For the connective rock, I am thinking of cloth soaked in thorite... Like cement paper mashie over a PVC skeleton.

[Lavoisier]

Where are you getting your thorite? The only source I could find was internet:
Emaco GP, Fast Setting Waterproof Repair Mortar (50lb)
EMACO-GP
$55.00 SALE $43.95

and shipping was another $40!

[Lavoisier]

Also, I remember seeing the video of the valve you built but now cannot find it. Can you provide the link?

[karimwassef]

Don't remember where I got it. It's been in a sealed bucket for nearly a decade!

It's expensive but it should allow for strong structures with overhangs, etc...

Here's the diverter http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2249020

[muttley000]

karimwassef,
I have just found and read your thread, great system you are putting together. I am sure all of this planning and debating will pay off many times over! It looked like you used threaded rod to suspend your shelf. This seems like the best idea, do you have an opinion yet on how it will work out? I am also very interested in how your surge device works. I am a few years out on a home remodel, and wife is good with a tank and fishroom as part of the plan, so I am curious how this works as I want to steal your idea Also have you picked out epoxy for your sump yet, and what material will you be using for your baffles?

[karimwassef]

Muttley,

I tested the threaded rod platforms with the full 100gal load. I was expecting to hear some creaking or see some warpage but it was as stable as my second floor. It's not so much the threaded rod. The 1/2" rods I used can carry a lot of weight and 1/2 the support is directly into the walls. The beams that the rods go into are the load bearing structures of my second floor so they are designed to take weight with margin.

[karimwassef]

I am going to try acrylic baffles. Success unknown. Will post once I test it. I am also adding small acrylic windows ... More TBD