DIY- "Pins" method of gluing acrylic. - Page 6

Bored Robot · 10/16/2004, 10:25 PM

Hey Bugger that's the same router I'm looking to buy. Do you have some sort of work bench you attach it to?

Bugger · 10/17/2004, 02:21 PM

No bench yet I spent all my money on the router.
I think my dad's gonna borrow his friends table saw for anouther projet maybe I can use that.

typrobin · 11/29/2004, 12:03 PM

other than routing to prepare the joints, can i simply use laser-cut edges? it seems like most pple prefer to route the joints to get a perfectly flat and straight edge, but i noticed that laser-cut edges are quite flat as well.

Runner · 11/29/2004, 12:26 PM

Laser works quite well, I understand. It's just that most of us do not have access to a laser-cutter.

If you use a router table, be sure to practice on some scrap wood first. I can't tell you how much material I ground into oblivion before I figured out how to use the router table that I "made".

Acrylics · 11/29/2004, 01:04 PM

Laser cut edges have inherent problems; quite simply they are not flat, 90deg cuts and the chances of crazing are much higher. That said, some folks do use them but IMHO they shouldn't be.

James

typrobin · 11/29/2004, 09:31 PM

thanks guys...

adrinal · 03/16/2005, 10:42 PM

I just used the smallest guitar strings, easy to poke yourself... but seem to work ok. Better than the smallest (22 guage) from HD... but cost alot more. I would get 3 strings to start with.

I am really hoping to find an acupuncturist. Those needles would be as thin as you can get, and have fancy handles on them

melev · 03/16/2005, 10:45 PM

That is a great idea!

adrinal · 03/16/2005, 10:56 PM

I just checked and they are.013". Acrylics recomends .007" I believe. I think the music store had one size smaller wires though.

adrinal · 03/16/2005, 11:32 PM

http://www.healthpointproducts.com/h...OVMTC=standard

First search... sure seems like a good deal.

.007" = ~ .18mm

melev · 03/16/2005, 11:40 PM

So are you thinking about these: NA3815WA1001

They are the last ones on this page:
http://www.1hpi.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cg...1/hp-21-1.html

I bet there is a minimum order you have to satisfy. One box is only $3, and with 100 needles that is plenty. I've bee reusing the same guitar string segments for months.

You are right about the conversion: .1778mm

http://www.chapelsteel.com/inches-millimeters.html

adrinal · 03/17/2005, 12:06 AM

I just made this order One of these aught to turn out alright

I am sure some folks in the local club will pick up some of them.
--------------------------------------------------
1 3.50 3.50 (SJ3X60WA1001) Sharp Japanese Style Acupuncture Needle D-0.20mm/G-3/L-60mm
1 4.50 4.50 (MAC-4010) Mac Spiral and Loop Type Handle Acupuncture Needle D-0.16mm/G-40/L-1.5inches
1 4.50 4.50 (MAC-3815) Mac Spiral and Loop Type Handle Acupuncture Needle D-0.18mm/G-38/L-1.5inches
1 3.00 3.00 (NA3620WA1001) Natural Brand Coil Handle Acupuncture Needle D-0.20mm/G-36/L-2.0inches
1 3.00 3.00 (NA3815WA1001) Natural Brand Coil Handle Acupuncture Needle D-0.18mm/G-38/L-1.5inches
1 3.50 3.50 (SJ2X40WA1001) Sharp Japanese Style Acupuncture Needle D-0.18mm/G-2/L-40mm
1 3.50 3.50 (SJ1X30WA1001) Sharp Japanese Style Acupuncture Needle D-0.16mm/G-1/L-30mm
--- -------- ---------- --------------------------------------------------

Sub-Total: 25.50

Total: 25.50

melev · 03/17/2005, 12:51 AM

You waste no time, do ya?!

adrinal · 03/17/2005, 01:25 AM

At this stage of the game, I have more money than time to waist. If I waist any more of the latter I will be out of the former.

Vicious cycle indeed!

Shouse94 · 03/31/2005, 11:05 PM

bump for a great thread
thanks for the information everyone.

adrinal · 03/31/2005, 11:27 PM

The acupuncture needles work great IMO. It is nice to not have to always be able to pull the "pins with your bare hands. The cheap Sharp brand ones are nice. They have a solid metal grip/vs a bendy spring like one. Any of them will do though.
I like the .20mm versions.
I might not have got the longest of each version though. Much longer than the width of your acrylic seems unneccesary and just adds an element of gangly-ness. Having a few of the .16mm is nice as well.

melev · 04/01/2005, 01:44 AM

I tried out some today, and wasn't as impressed as you were. I ended up with quite a few bubbles in my seams, more than usual. I think the thinness of the needles allows less solvent in the joints, which made getting good seams a real struggle for me.

I'll keep trying though. I used .18 and .20 needles on this sump.

1234 · 04/01/2005, 04:31 AM

I just use those twist-t-ties from the market for those produce bags. Just strip some of the paper off of it and presto instant "pins" free

adrinal · 04/01/2005, 09:31 AM

I guess I should have got some of the thicker ones. They go up to .30mm.

I had far less bubbles than when I used the guitar wire... but we are not compairing apples to apples since I machined the edges better on this batch.

Did you get the "pins" in past the sharpened tips?

melev · 04/01/2005, 09:44 AM

Yes, they are pretty much fully under the 1/4" material, without coming out the other side. I use Weld-On #4, and with a jointer I cleaned up my edges first.

Using shims helped, but what seems to occur is as it cures, it sucks inward (shrinks) and creates air pockets down one side of the seam or the other. It was annoying, but I wanted to try it out. I'll keep at it in case it was just an issue this first time.

adrinal · 04/01/2005, 10:10 AM

I just checked. I did the sides on 5 "3/8"acrylic 8"x48"x24" tanks. I found one edge with some bubbles on the side. All the other edges were fine.
At first if a bubble would form while I was applying the weldon, I would poke it with a smaller needle. But, I found that to be sloppy and ineffective for the most part. So, I just let the sides go with bubbles after that. The bubbles would always squirt out when I pulled the "pins".

I know you have built tons of tanks, so let me know if my questions get annoying. I am trying to figure out if this method SEEmed to work for me this time, just happens to be a method that does work for me and not you, or you had some other problem this time. I would hate to make weak tanks thinking I had ones done well! Would you assume if the Weldon is wicking through to the other side I probably have strong welding?

You talked about needing to shim. I probably only had to use only 4 shimps for all 20 welds do you rest your pieces on foam to level out?

BTW: thanks for posting your results Marc.

melev · 04/01/2005, 03:22 PM

Zephrants examples on the first page illustrate how a shim is used with each pin to make the pressure even along the full length of the joint that is to be seamed.

I work on a sheet of MDF, not foam because the solvent will melt the foam pretty easily.

I build sumps, not display tanks, but I'd really like to get perfect seams one day. Seeing a few bubbles really aggravates me, even though I'm not a professional acrylic worker. Merely a hobbyist that tries to get things just right.

On the next sump, I'll see if I have better success.

Zephrant · 04/03/2005, 09:56 PM

A few random thoughts- I still use basic sewing pins- The thicker pin allows more solvent, which makes for a clear joint. This overkill for 1/4", good for 3/8" and perfect for 1/2" material.

I put the pin all the way though to extend out a little on the other side.

I do get some marking from the extra glue around the joint, but I accept that as a trade off for perfectly clear joints.

Let it soak 30 seconds to a minute- The extra solvent action makes for a clean joint, but more ooze when you pull the pins. Again, I accept the tiny ooze mark in exchange for the clear joint.

I find that in the rare instance that I do get a bubble or two, it is because I did not get a clean pass through the router- I bumped the table, or something that made a divot in the side. Or I did not shim well enough.

The shims counter for the table that is not perfectly flat, as well as the acrylic that is not flat. I had a piece the other day that varied 0.100" over 12". It went from 0.290 to 0.390", and was supposed to be 3/8".

Zeph

adrinal · 04/03/2005, 10:15 PM

Theoretically, if I am getting perfectly clear welds with this size needle, then it should be strong right? I do have weldon come out both sides when the piece is lowered. Or do I need to be melting more of it to get a good weld?

Curently I am waiting 30-45 seconds to pull the pins. I am using mostly 3/8" acrylic.

melev · 04/03/2005, 10:55 PM

Since I'm using extruded 1/4" material, I pull the pins at 15 seconds as Zephrant and Acrylics both suggested to me in the past. Waiting longer has not proven to be at all beneficial.

I'm getting decent seams, but not perfect ones like Zephrant is describing. I'm sure part of it is the material is extruded and thinner than what many use instead.

10/16/2004, 10:25 PM	#126
Bored Robot Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washington, D.C. Posts: 201	Hey Bugger that's the same router I'm looking to buy. Do you have some sort of work bench you attach it to? __________________ Jonathan Current Tank Info: 75G Oceanic (115 total system), 12G Aquapod

11/29/2004, 12:26 PM	#129
Runner Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 3,196 Blog Entries: 1	Laser works quite well, I understand. It's just that most of us do not have access to a laser-cutter. If you use a router table, be sure to practice on some scrap wood first. I can't tell you how much material I ground into oblivion before I figured out how to use the router table that I "made". __________________ -Scott "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell Current Tank Info: 24G Reef cube with Cree LED DIY Retrofit

10/17/2004, 02:21 PM	#127
Bugger Moved On Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: ontario Posts: 1,104	No bench yet I spent all my money on the router. I think my dad's gonna borrow his friends table saw for anouther projet maybe I can use that.

11/29/2004, 12:03 PM	#128
typrobin Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: singapore Posts: 32	other than routing to prepare the joints, can i simply use laser-cut edges? it seems like most pple prefer to route the joints to get a perfectly flat and straight edge, but i noticed that laser-cut edges are quite flat as well.

11/29/2004, 01:04 PM	#130
Acrylics Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,230	Laser cut edges have inherent problems; quite simply they are not flat, 90deg cuts and the chances of crazing are much higher. That said, some folks do use them but IMHO they shouldn't be. James

11/29/2004, 09:31 PM	#131
typrobin Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: singapore Posts: 32	thanks guys...

03/16/2005, 10:42 PM	#132
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	I just used the smallest guitar strings, easy to poke yourself... but seem to work ok. Better than the smallest (22 guage) from HD... but cost alot more. I would get 3 strings to start with. I am really hoping to find an acupuncturist. Those needles would be as thin as you can get, and have fancy handles on them

03/16/2005, 10:45 PM	#133
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	That is a great idea!

03/16/2005, 10:56 PM	#134
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	I just checked and they are.013". Acrylics recomends .007" I believe. I think the music store had one size smaller wires though.

03/16/2005, 11:32 PM	#135
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	http://www.healthpointproducts.com/h...OVMTC=standard First search... sure seems like a good deal. .007" = ~ .18mm

03/16/2005, 11:40 PM	#136
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	So are you thinking about these: NA3815WA1001 They are the last ones on this page: http://www.1hpi.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cg...1/hp-21-1.html I bet there is a minimum order you have to satisfy. One box is only $3, and with 100 needles that is plenty. I've bee reusing the same guitar string segments for months. You are right about the conversion: .1778mm http://www.chapelsteel.com/inches-millimeters.html

03/17/2005, 12:06 AM	#137
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	I just made this order One of these aught to turn out alright I am sure some folks in the local club will pick up some of them. -------------------------------------------------- 1 3.50 3.50 (SJ3X60WA1001) Sharp Japanese Style Acupuncture Needle D-0.20mm/G-3/L-60mm 1 4.50 4.50 (MAC-4010) Mac Spiral and Loop Type Handle Acupuncture Needle D-0.16mm/G-40/L-1.5inches 1 4.50 4.50 (MAC-3815) Mac Spiral and Loop Type Handle Acupuncture Needle D-0.18mm/G-38/L-1.5inches 1 3.00 3.00 (NA3620WA1001) Natural Brand Coil Handle Acupuncture Needle D-0.20mm/G-36/L-2.0inches 1 3.00 3.00 (NA3815WA1001) Natural Brand Coil Handle Acupuncture Needle D-0.18mm/G-38/L-1.5inches 1 3.50 3.50 (SJ2X40WA1001) Sharp Japanese Style Acupuncture Needle D-0.18mm/G-2/L-40mm 1 3.50 3.50 (SJ1X30WA1001) Sharp Japanese Style Acupuncture Needle D-0.16mm/G-1/L-30mm --- -------- ---------- -------------------------------------------------- Sub-Total: 25.50 Total: 25.50

03/17/2005, 12:51 AM	#138
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	You waste no time, do ya?!

03/17/2005, 01:25 AM	#139
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	At this stage of the game, I have more money than time to waist. If I waist any more of the latter I will be out of the former. Vicious cycle indeed!

03/31/2005, 11:05 PM	#140
Shouse94 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 411	bump for a great thread thanks for the information everyone.

03/31/2005, 11:27 PM	#141
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	The acupuncture needles work great IMO. It is nice to not have to always be able to pull the "pins with your bare hands. The cheap Sharp brand ones are nice. They have a solid metal grip/vs a bendy spring like one. Any of them will do though. I like the .20mm versions. I might not have got the longest of each version though. Much longer than the width of your acrylic seems unneccesary and just adds an element of gangly-ness. Having a few of the .16mm is nice as well.

04/01/2005, 01:44 AM	#142
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I tried out some today, and wasn't as impressed as you were. I ended up with quite a few bubbles in my seams, more than usual. I think the thinness of the needles allows less solvent in the joints, which made getting good seams a real struggle for me. I'll keep trying though. I used .18 and .20 needles on this sump.

04/01/2005, 04:31 AM	#143
1234 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Portland,OR Posts: 769	I just use those twist-t-ties from the market for those produce bags. Just strip some of the paper off of it and presto instant "pins" free

04/01/2005, 09:31 AM	#144
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	I guess I should have got some of the thicker ones. They go up to .30mm. I had far less bubbles than when I used the guitar wire... but we are not compairing apples to apples since I machined the edges better on this batch. Did you get the "pins" in past the sharpened tips?

04/01/2005, 09:44 AM	#145
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Yes, they are pretty much fully under the 1/4" material, without coming out the other side. I use Weld-On #4, and with a jointer I cleaned up my edges first. Using shims helped, but what seems to occur is as it cures, it sucks inward (shrinks) and creates air pockets down one side of the seam or the other. It was annoying, but I wanted to try it out. I'll keep at it in case it was just an issue this first time.

04/01/2005, 10:10 AM	#146
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	I just checked. I did the sides on 5 "3/8"acrylic 8"x48"x24" tanks. I found one edge with some bubbles on the side. All the other edges were fine. At first if a bubble would form while I was applying the weldon, I would poke it with a smaller needle. But, I found that to be sloppy and ineffective for the most part. So, I just let the sides go with bubbles after that. The bubbles would always squirt out when I pulled the "pins". I know you have built tons of tanks, so let me know if my questions get annoying. I am trying to figure out if this method SEEmed to work for me this time, just happens to be a method that does work for me and not you, or you had some other problem this time. I would hate to make weak tanks thinking I had ones done well! Would you assume if the Weldon is wicking through to the other side I probably have strong welding? You talked about needing to shim. I probably only had to use only 4 shimps for all 20 welds do you rest your pieces on foam to level out? BTW: thanks for posting your results Marc.

04/01/2005, 03:22 PM	#147
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Zephrants examples on the first page illustrate how a shim is used with each pin to make the pressure even along the full length of the joint that is to be seamed. I work on a sheet of MDF, not foam because the solvent will melt the foam pretty easily. I build sumps, not display tanks, but I'd really like to get perfect seams one day. Seeing a few bubbles really aggravates me, even though I'm not a professional acrylic worker. Merely a hobbyist that tries to get things just right. On the next sump, I'll see if I have better success.

04/03/2005, 09:56 PM	#148
Zephrant Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,234	A few random thoughts- I still use basic sewing pins- The thicker pin allows more solvent, which makes for a clear joint. This overkill for 1/4", good for 3/8" and perfect for 1/2" material. I put the pin all the way though to extend out a little on the other side. I do get some marking from the extra glue around the joint, but I accept that as a trade off for perfectly clear joints. Let it soak 30 seconds to a minute- The extra solvent action makes for a clean joint, but more ooze when you pull the pins. Again, I accept the tiny ooze mark in exchange for the clear joint. I find that in the rare instance that I do get a bubble or two, it is because I did not get a clean pass through the router- I bumped the table, or something that made a divot in the side. Or I did not shim well enough. The shims counter for the table that is not perfectly flat, as well as the acrylic that is not flat. I had a piece the other day that varied 0.100" over 12". It went from 0.290 to 0.390", and was supposed to be 3/8". Zeph

04/03/2005, 10:15 PM	#149
adrinal Moved On Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 764	Theoretically, if I am getting perfectly clear welds with this size needle, then it should be strong right? I do have weldon come out both sides when the piece is lowered. Or do I need to be melting more of it to get a good weld? Curently I am waiting 30-45 seconds to pull the pins. I am using mostly 3/8" acrylic.

04/03/2005, 10:55 PM	#150
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Since I'm using extruded 1/4" material, I pull the pins at 15 seconds as Zephrant and Acrylics both suggested to me in the past. Waiting longer has not proven to be at all beneficial. I'm getting decent seams, but not perfect ones like Zephrant is describing. I'm sure part of it is the material is extruded and thinner than what many use instead.