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Unread 07/15/2012, 01:51 PM   #51
A. Grandis
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Make sure you target feed the zoas, if that's what you're looking for.
Nitrates are not that good. A good quality target feeding will bring nutrients to the zoas, not to the water.
Keep your alkalinity in check and make sure the other params are in their normal ranges.
Skimmer running, lights changed when needed...
I would check your nitrates with another test kit. Perhaps that one is expired?
If you're feeding a lot maybe the test is not reading good.
Too much nitrates is no good, as we know.
There is more to nutrients for zoas then nitrates and phosphates, I believe.
Yes, they take a while to get used to a new environment. That will depend on the species, system, etc...

Good luck!

Grandis.


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Unread 07/15/2012, 04:34 PM   #52
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Multiple test kots red zero on nitrates and phosphates...


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Unread 08/25/2012, 06:56 PM   #53
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Well dosing several ZEOVIT products has increased some growth..... Still slow but improving


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Unread 10/02/2012, 06:59 PM   #54
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So 9 months later here is an update...

Green button polyps, happy, some growth.... A few polyps on the sand every now and then so I am pleased..

Galaxia has overgrown the clams that were embedded..

AOG has added a few polyps

Green birds nest grew well for a while then stopped

Most sps frags are encrusting... Some didn't make it others are looking good.


Eagle eyes..... Maybe 5 new heads in 10 months.... I have two pieces in different light and flow.... Very slow...


So over all... Growth but still slow....


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Unread 11/22/2012, 07:55 PM   #55
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Well as I come up on the day where I bought my first corals one year ago...black Friday.... I am at the point of giving up.... My first corals I bought were some eagle eyes, one head of frog spawn.....my eagle eye has doubles in size and my frog spawn has split only once... That's it in one year.... The green birds nest I bought about 10 months ago is as big as a tennis ball. My 20 sps frags I bought since then are all just encrusting but barely cover the frag plugs.... Pitiful growth.... If all my frags grew as well as that birdsnest my tank would be amazing.... I just don't get it...


I have moved most of them around to different spots. Color is good on most but poor growth...

Recently I switched from Biopellet to prodibio. I dose several Zeo suppliments and switched to red sea coral pro salt. I do see a little better growth... My purple bonsai has started some new branches so I am hopeful.....but frustrated....

Now with more fish and slightly higher nitrates (.25) I am keeping my fingers crossed....


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Unread 11/23/2012, 12:34 AM   #56
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Are you target feeding them quality coral foods yet?
I'm assuming all the other things are already taken care of.

Grandis.


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Unread 11/23/2012, 08:12 AM   #57
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I have tried the target feeding of rods food but have switched to broadcast feeding with coral smoothie several times a week...I switched because I was seeing no results from the target feeding and it is way more convenient to do broadcast...

Weekly water changes
Low to in detectable phosphates (depends on when I last used the coral food as it makes my phosphates jump up for about 12 hours)
Auto dosing alk and calc
Tested lights with par meter about 7 months ago so I know where I am putting things

The only thing that shows results is the Zeo suppliments....without them I have no growth except for that birdsnest. That thing took off from day 1...


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Unread 11/23/2012, 08:27 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHG View Post
Well as I come up on the day where I bought my first corals one year ago...black Friday.... I am at the point of giving up.... My first corals I bought were some eagle eyes, one head of frog spawn.....my eagle eye has doubles in size and my frog spawn has split only once... That's it in one year.... The green birds nest I bought about 10 months ago is as big as a tennis ball. My 20 sps frags I bought since then are all just encrusting but barely cover the frag plugs.... Pitiful growth.... If all my frags grew as well as that birdsnest my tank would be amazing.... I just don't get it...


I have moved most of them around to different spots. Color is good on most but poor growth...

Recently I switched from Biopellet to prodibio. I dose several Zeo suppliments and switched to red sea coral pro salt. I do see a little better growth... My purple bonsai has started some new branches so I am hopeful.....but frustrated....

Now with more fish and slightly higher nitrates (.25) I am keeping my fingers crossed....
Dont give up, i was like you at one time. But after awhile it just takes off. I could be wrong but it could also be not sufficient lights..........I'm not that strong a believer right now in LED's ONLY. Never tried it so i cant say. This is just my opinion.
Check my pics of my frogspawn. my first pic was in Aug 2011 with only 3 heads, in June 2012 it was over 15 heads. Ive never target fed them to this day. I feed my fish on a regular basis (10-15 times a day) with spectrum pellets, frozen mysis, freeze dried krill & freeze dried plankton. I skim heavy all the time. When feeding my fish, i always squeeze the food so it creates a juice that my corals enjoy. Other than that, i also use kent marine chromamax & kent marine microvert. All my other corals are doing great in my tank (over 20 types) I do a 50gal water change as a rule every 3wks. I'm not saying that target feeding wont work but it might just grow it faster. On another note, I've actually placed zoas on rocks (10 polyps) and in 3 mths has actually passed over 50 polyps. Then i also have some other polyps that is not too far off with the same lighting that has grown from 3 polyps to 6 in about 6mths. I've bought other zoas that took nearly 3 mths to open up. Some corals are really finiky. My tank is 72" X 30"H X 24"W and i'm running Current USA Pro series hood. 12 T5's X39W (8 X 12,000K and 4 actinics 03-420nm) followed by two 4ft Tru-lumens LED strips.
You got to stick with it pal..................... I never thought my tank will look like that in just over a year. I'e had some rediculous growth with some other corals. Spaghetti leather and a neon green polyp toadstool - 2-3" in aug 2011, 6" in jan 2012 and 10-11" in nov 2012.


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File Type: jpg Frogspawn - before.jpg (43.2 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg Frogspawn- now.jpg (92.4 KB, 4 views)
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Unread 11/23/2012, 08:54 PM   #59
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Wile I have contemplates replacing my lights with a halide, I have seen many led lit tanks with good growth. Without turning this into a led vs ...... argument we are even starting to see TOTM's with all led's.


I am told 60 cubes are perfectly light with a 250 MH and I can get a complete used ballast reflector and used bulb set in manhattan for 50 bucks (just need to buy a new bulb) so I may give it a try.... But I don't want to start throwing money at the problem...


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Unread 11/25/2012, 02:10 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHG View Post
I have tried the target feeding of rods food but have switched to broadcast feeding with coral smoothie several times a week...I switched because I was seeing no results from the target feeding and it is way more convenient to do broadcast...

Weekly water changes
Low to in detectable phosphates (depends on when I last used the coral food as it makes my phosphates jump up for about 12 hours)
Auto dosing alk and calc
Tested lights with par meter about 7 months ago so I know where I am putting things

The only thing that shows results is the Zeo suppliments....without them I have no growth except for that birdsnest. That thing took off from day 1...
Are the polyps actually grabbing the Rods Food?
I never tried Rods Food yet, so I wouldn't be able to know how good it is.

If they're not grabbing the food it is worthless to do any broadcast feeding, I guess.
There is no comparison between target and broadcast. Target gets the food directly to the polyps while when you broadcast feed lots of the food is wasted to the filters or it feeds the fishes and other inverts. Not to mention the excess nutrients in the water.

Grandis.


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Unread 11/25/2012, 02:25 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHG View Post
Wile I have contemplates replacing my lights with a halide, I have seen many led lit tanks with good growth. Without turning this into a led vs ...... argument we are even starting to see TOTM's with all led's.


I am told 60 cubes are perfectly light with a 250 MH and I can get a complete used ballast reflector and used bulb set in manhattan for 50 bucks (just need to buy a new bulb) so I may give it a try.... But I don't want to start throwing money at the problem...
We just need to believe that any of the options available (MH,LEDs and T5s) for the reef tanks regarding lights are good for zoas and corals/anemones. That said the only thing to keep in mind is what you would like to choose and the adaptation period. I choose T5s and love it.
Zoas love MHs!!!
Please don't give up! It's just a matter of time...

Grandis.


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Cartoon names + 1-5 polyps on white plugs = easy money!!!
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Unread 11/25/2012, 03:50 PM   #62
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Well my paly's are catching it for sure. My eyes are not that good to see if the sps is catching it....I don't mind a little excess nutrients in the tank as Half the people on this site will blame the fact that you are ULNMfor all your ills....


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Unread 11/25/2012, 04:50 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHG View Post
Well my paly's are catching it for sure. My eyes are not that good to see if the sps is catching it....I don't mind a little excess nutrients in the tank as Half the people on this site will blame the fact that you are ULNMfor all your ills....
Please let me know what "ULNM" stands for.

Grandis.


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Cartoon names + 1-5 polyps on white plugs = easy money!!!
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Unread 12/02/2012, 01:52 PM   #64
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Quote:
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Please let me know what "ULNM" stands for.

Grandis.
?


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Unread 12/02/2012, 06:12 PM   #65
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Sorry, fat fingers...ULNS. (ultra low nutrient system)


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Unread 12/02/2012, 11:10 PM   #66
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Quote:
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Well my paly's are catching it for sure. My eyes are not that good to see if the sps is catching it....I don't mind a little excess nutrients in the tank as Half the people on this site will blame the fact that you are ULNMfor all your ills....
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHG View Post
Sorry, fat fingers...ULNS. (ultra low nutrient system)
Sorry, I didn't connect it to the meaning of the 1st post.
Could you please explain in other terms?
Thanks.

Grandis.


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Cartoon names + 1-5 polyps on white plugs = easy money!!!
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Unread 12/03/2012, 06:34 AM   #67
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Meaning if I make a post that says I dont like my colors... I get "its because you are running a ULNS" If I say I have poor growth I get people saying "well its because you run a ULNS" even though I can point out many ULN systems with good growth and color...

That being said, I am no longer running pellets, I have doubles the amount of fish. Since one of them is a large anthias I now feed 3 times a day instead of two. My NO4 and PO4 are still at zero.... I have not seen any real improvement in growth in over a year... two sps colonies grow like weeds. My GSP does well also... The rest do not much of anything... My zoas are the slowest... I have fragged small pieces so I can place them in different parts of the tank in different PAR levels and the speed is pretty much the same...


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Unread 12/03/2012, 09:17 AM   #68
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My lighting is very close to yours (CREE 3w LED's 12CW/36RB). My experiences were very close to what you have been reporting. Although I get very good growth from all my SPS, some of my zoas/palys grow somewhat slower or in spurts. I think part of my problem is alkalinty stability, but the other part may be the color spectrum of the LEDs. I'm setting up a new tank, and plan to test this theory over the next year. The new tank will be zoa/paly exculsive...hoping to see if adding in a new color changes growth.

The reason I feel this way is because prior to putting LEDs on my system I ran a 6bulb t5 light, and saw opposite results...My SPS grew slow, but the zoas/palys seemed to grow at a speady pace...or at least a little faster. My LEDs have been on for almost a year now, and my zoas/palys are picking up pace at times. So it might just be a long adjustment period for zoas/palys.

Just to compare a little.
Tank: I have a 72 gal w/ 20 gal sump w/ under sized skimmer.
Dosing: I use carbon and poly filter. For dosing: two part to maintain Ca and Alk, Ma supplement, 1 drop of Lugols per month, and Purple up maybe once or twice a month.
Water Changes: 10% every 2 weeks
Water Parameters: Ca = 400-420, Alk = 7 to 8, Mg = 1320 to 1360, Temp. 78-80F, Salinity = 1.025. I don't check anything else unless something looks wrong.


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Unread 12/04/2012, 12:45 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHG View Post
Meaning if I make a post that says I dont like my colors... I get "its because you are running a ULNS" If I say I have poor growth I get people saying "well its because you run a ULNS" even though I can point out many ULN systems with good growth and color...

That being said, I am no longer running pellets, I have doubles the amount of fish. Since one of them is a large anthias I now feed 3 times a day instead of two. My NO4 and PO4 are still at zero.... I have not seen any real improvement in growth in over a year... two sps colonies grow like weeds. My GSP does well also... The rest do not much of anything... My zoas are the slowest... I have fragged small pieces so I can place them in different parts of the tank in different PAR levels and the speed is pretty much the same...
Please tell me that you don't want your PO4 and NO4 high!!!

The only pellets I would recommend are the coral food pellets (target feeding).

My zoas grow pretty slow for what I want. They do grow faster when I target feed them, but still slow for what I want. I think the growth speed could be considered relative from person to person too. It depends what he/she see as " fast" or "slow". I don't worry much about their growth/reproduction rates today. I just do what I can and enjoy the tank and keep them healthy. The top part od my system is where the grow faster, close to the lights.
Some times I have also some bacterial infections (driving me crazy!!!) here and there and in some cases I've lost entire colonies for those infections. Those colonies took like 2 years to grow!!! Very sad!! They do come back and grow on the rocks again when I can manage to save some of the polyps, so...

I understand now what you mean about the ULNS. I have phosphates and nitrates around zero most times, but those aren't the only nutrients we've got!!! I think people get confused when they post those statements you've mentioned... There are many types of "ULNS" nowadays, I guess.
I know all zoanthids need nutrients, they also absorb some from the water besides the zooxanthellae source. I just have to believe they get nutrients from food particles too, once they grow a bit faster and some species manifest their colors better.
When there are extra nutrients for the algae in the water, they are used by the zooxanthellae, giving the darker color to corals/zoas (probably because of the number of zooxanthellae into the tissue) and not necessarily related to the colors we really want. There is so much to colors and growth!!! I mean, the pale appearance is a lack of zooxanthellae in those low, low nutrient systems as we know, if that's what people are talking about. Yes, in that case it could be a lack of NO4, PO4, generally speaking.

Target feeding will help with some of the colors/growth, depending on the coral food used and the way you feed. The special nutrition for color and growth will be going inside the polyps with target feeding. The bigger mistake is the excess of food into the system what brings problems with algae and cyanos, for example. Liquid invert foods are the worse IME. Broadcast feeding just gives us more work to clean the system with water changes, even with the the help of a good skimmer. Even good target feeding needs to be controlled. I feed only about once a week.

PAR levels aren't ALL what light is about, as we know. There is spectrum, intensity, etc... Spectrum is very important for zoas!!! There is the chemistry, temp, alk, pH too and so on...

Balance of nutrients and stability are the best you can offer in a zoa system.
Hope that helps a bit.

Grandis.


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Cartoon names + 1-5 polyps on white plugs = easy money!!!
Really? Try to become a reefer, not a "plugger", please!
Don't forget that LEDs are actually the shop lights nowadays!!
Try HOT5s!

Last edited by A. Grandis; 12/04/2012 at 01:43 AM.
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Unread 12/04/2012, 05:24 PM   #70
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Thanks for the input. I appreciate any help i can get...

When I was target feeding in the past it did nothing much. Although I have returned to it last week.

Yes I know there is more to light than par but unless I missed a hobby grade light spectrometer at bulk reef supply, it is the only light parameter I can offer to assist the helpful RC folks in assisting me...


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Unread 12/05/2012, 01:08 AM   #71
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The main thing with the target feeding is the type of food you offer.
Just like the fishes.
Best foods I've tried for my zoanthids were Reef Roids and Fauna Marin Zoa/Acan food and LPS pellets.
Well worthy!!
Coral Frenzy is a good one too. Polyps love that food!!
I'm trying Reef Chili now, but it's too early to say something here.

Turn off pumps and drop the particles on them letting them close with food inside. When they open you won't see the food. They'll ingest, digest and poop it. That happens with all of the zoanthids I've got. They do behave differently while feeding, but they all feed upon and will manifest better reproduction/growth rates. Try not to squirt on them because they'll just react against it and they'll close before the food touches them.

I've tried also different types of liquid foods in the past, mysis, brine and others, but they wouldn't make any noticeable differences. Those types will feed unwanted algae and the skimmer really well.

Grandis.


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Cartoon names + 1-5 polyps on white plugs = easy money!!!
Really? Try to become a reefer, not a "plugger", please!
Don't forget that LEDs are actually the shop lights nowadays!!
Try HOT5s!
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Unread 12/05/2012, 12:31 PM   #72
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I will try to help you.

Are the zoas that aren't growing in the sand bed? IME zoas will only grow on rocks, once they hit sand they stop growing.

You say that your other corals aren't growing as well? When ever I don't have time to mess around with my tank (hands in the tank) the corals seem to do the best.

Have you read about Vitamin C dosing? If not you might want to look into it.

I also carbon dose to keep my levels NO3 and PO4 low. Everything is growing great for me, what works for one person may not work for the next.

Last thing I can think of is that it takes time for a tank to mature. A few months ago not much was growing in my tank but everything was still alive. Then out of no where every thing began to grow really nice!


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Unread 12/05/2012, 03:34 PM   #73
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That vit-c thing i'm willing to try but i'm hoping to get more info on it.


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Unread 12/07/2012, 12:45 PM   #74
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I'm not going to get into designer names but will tell you my results on Zoos over the last year.

Medium green fring with bright orange fring. Started with 8 polyps now have 32 polys the size of the polyps when I got it were the size about 1/8" across and are still the same size.

Dark green fring with bark maroon center. Had 6 polyps a year ago now up to 8 polyps. These are slightly smaller than the other green.

Grayish green except for the center with a bright but very small yellow dot in the center. These are growing wild about a 1/4 inch wide polyps started with 16 a years ago now I have well over a 100. Covering an area about 8 inches across by about 6".

How do these compare with some other individuals reults?

On the lighting thing several people mentioned. Do not go 100% by par meter readings. Par meters cover a broad spectrum and many ov those light rays are not benificial to corals. florescent lighting as it gets old shifts to longer frequencies which are more sensative to PAR meters but less benificial to corals. With T-5 lighting I always recommend changing 50% of the bulbs every 6 months. This assures you do not have bulbs longer than 1 year, and there is no sudden lighting change. If you change the color spectrum of one of your bulbs or want to do several only chang one at a time and wait 2 weeks before changing any others. Again to minimize sudden change.


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Unread 12/07/2012, 01:11 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TropTrea View Post
I'm not going to get into designer names but will tell you my results on Zoos over the last year.

Medium green fring with bright orange fring. Started with 8 polyps now have 32 polys the size of the polyps when I got it were the size about 1/8" across and are still the same size.

Dark green fring with bark maroon center. Had 6 polyps a year ago now up to 8 polyps. These are slightly smaller than the other green.

Grayish green except for the center with a bright but very small yellow dot in the center. These are growing wild about a 1/4 inch wide polyps started with 16 a years ago now I have well over a 100. Covering an area about 8 inches across by about 6".

How do these compare with some other individuals reults?

On the lighting thing several people mentioned. Do not go 100% by par meter readings. Par meters cover a broad spectrum and many ov those light rays are not benificial to corals. florescent lighting as it gets old shifts to longer frequencies which are more sensative to PAR meters but less benificial to corals. With T-5 lighting I always recommend changing 50% of the bulbs every 6 months. This assures you do not have bulbs longer than 1 year, and there is no sudden lighting change. If you change the color spectrum of one of your bulbs or want to do several only chang one at a time and wait 2 weeks before changing any others. Again to minimize sudden change.


My friend, that was an awesome reply from beginning to end and I agree 100%.

MUCHO REEF
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