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Unread 02/12/2016, 04:32 PM   #1
iReef1234
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Bangaiis- your thoughts

With bangaii cardinal fish being listed as threatened by the endangered species act, what are your thoughts on stil importing wild ones?




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Unread 02/12/2016, 05:03 PM   #2
Protoavis
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That it's bad.

Especially when considering that breeding in aquariums has been achieved with fairly regular success by many different people.


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Unread 02/12/2016, 05:51 PM   #3
TimeConsumer
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My thought is that when captive bred specimens are available that it is our responsibility to seek them out over wild caught.


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Unread 02/12/2016, 06:28 PM   #4
dendrite
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Originally Posted by timeconsumer View Post
my thought is that when captive bred specimens are available that it is our responsibility to seek them out over wild caught.
+1


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Unread 02/13/2016, 08:38 AM   #5
SNAKEMANVET
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They should not be wild caught anymore,since they breed like rabbits.I have raised several batches and they sell fast.This is we as a hobby need to try and raise them and sell back to our Lfs and fellow reefers.I know a lot ppl don't want to go through the trouble of feeding but to see them grow makes you feel good.


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Unread 02/13/2016, 08:52 AM   #6
TimeConsumer
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I agree that breeding is important. But just as important is for people to demand captive-bred species. Wild caught are usually cheaper so most LFS will buy those to keep prices down. If there were more hobbyists that wouldn't settle for wild species it would go a long way.

This is a very important issue for me. I am in the process of setting up a 20g nano reef that is going to be entirely captive bred livestock. From the fish to the corals to the snails. My version is a little excessive, but I'm also doing it to try and raise awareness.


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Unread 02/14/2016, 01:04 AM   #7
minus9
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I agree with snakemanvet, these fish breed like rabbits. There is no need to sell wild caught banggaii.


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Unread 02/15/2016, 11:51 AM   #8
iReef1234
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I feel the same way but see that PIJAC is not interested in promoting captive raised banggais which, to me, means they are not supporting aquarists who breed them. Why don't they support our interests in captive raising this species?

Check out Ret Talbot's post about PIJAC's stance here: https://rettalbot.wordpress.com/2016...-cardinalfish/

"PIJAC Advocates Continued Trade in Wild-Harvest Banggai Cardinalfish"


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Unread 02/15/2016, 11:53 AM   #9
iReef1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeConsumer View Post
I agree that breeding is important. But just as important is for people to demand captive-bred species. Wild caught are usually cheaper so most LFS will buy those to keep prices down. If there were more hobbyists that wouldn't settle for wild species it would go a long way.

This is a very important issue for me. I am in the process of setting up a 20g nano reef that is going to be entirely captive bred livestock. From the fish to the corals to the snails. My version is a little excessive, but I'm also doing it to try and raise awareness.
Thanks for the detailed reply!


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Unread 02/15/2016, 05:23 PM   #10
TimeConsumer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iReef1234 View Post
I feel the same way but see that PIJAC is not interested in promoting captive raised banggais which, to me, means they are not supporting aquarists who breed them. Why don't they support our interests in captive raising this species?

Check out Ret Talbot's post about PIJAC's stance here: https://rettalbot.wordpress.com/2016...-cardinalfish/

"PIJAC Advocates Continued Trade in Wild-Harvest Banggai Cardinalfish"
Well, they are a lobbying group. Their main goal is to protect the interest of their members. So if Banggai Cardinal breeders aren't a part of their lobby then they have no reason to support them over the importers, wholesalers, and retailers that are part of their lobby.


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Unread 02/15/2016, 09:36 PM   #11
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My question is why are we not using tank bread ones to release into the wild


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Unread 02/16/2016, 08:14 PM   #12
iReef1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeConsumer View Post
Well, they are a lobbying group. Their main goal is to protect the interest of their members. So if Banggai Cardinal breeders aren't a part of their lobby then they have no reason to support them over the importers, wholesalers, and retailers that are part of their lobby.
Makes sense. I was confused bc I heard people saying it was a conservation group.


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Unread 02/16/2016, 11:51 PM   #13
ReefPharmer
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PIJAC - pet industry joint advisory council. Probably as far as you can get from conservationism. They are the OPEC of pets. Anything from "commercial dog / cat breeders", to wild capture of all types of species, if it sells in a petstore, its part of their lobby.


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Unread 02/17/2016, 08:49 AM   #14
iReef1234
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Why do reefers give money towards it? My local club gave a lot. But here on RC many people say they would rather make the hobby conservation oriented. Giving money to industry to fight conservation/ESA/captive rearing potential doesn't make sense. I guess this is because everyone is different?

Thanks for explaining! Yall are awesome (and patient)


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Unread 02/17/2016, 09:21 AM   #15
TimeConsumer
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Maybe they don't know any better. Or maybe they don't care much about supporting small captive breeders. Maybe they would rather see lobbying change the regulations in CITES to make importing wild specimens easier (not everyone is conservation oriented).

I would probably just ask your reef club leaders why.


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Unread 02/17/2016, 04:46 PM   #16
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PIJAC's stance on wild Bengaliis is wrong, but they do support the hobbyist and we should support them. The recent debacle with the attempted coral ban is a perfect example. They are one of the few who are in our corner to try and stop those who hold a position that marine aquariums should flat out be illegal. So be careful by taking a complete stance against them. No one and no organization is perfect. Write them a letter voicing your opinion on the Bengaii situation, but remember at the end of the day, they have your back.


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Unread 02/22/2016, 04:48 PM   #17
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I think there should not be a ban on collection, but there should be a much lower limit.

It is important to be able to freshen bloodlines in a captive breeding program.


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Unread 02/22/2016, 09:46 PM   #18
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Honestly, I was really disappointed in PIJAC's approach to the coral restrictions. I thought it was a poor choice to try to rile up the hobby with threats about taking away our coral, and send people off to write comments on the bill with very little info. But I can see how framing the issue as "us vs. them" is beneficial to a lobbying group. I'd be curious to know what they actually did with all the money they raised.

There were legit issues with the additions the EPA was trying to pass, but it got drowned out by PIJACs fearmongering. IDK if it's in the hobbys interest to come off like a bunch of "don't tread on me" wackos. It'd be good if we could cultivate a relationship with the agencies that have a say in what we can collect.

I don't see a good reason to buy wild fish whenever there are captive bred ones available.


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Unread 02/23/2016, 12:41 AM   #19
Protoavis
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Originally Posted by Harth23 View Post
My question is why are we not using tank bread ones to release into the wild
Biological contamination, aquariums may have foreign bacteria, viruses, etc that would end up being introduced to wild populations with unknown effects. Those bred in captivity may never have survived in the wild so genetic viability of the wild population could be heavily skewed based on numbers released, etc.


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Unread 02/23/2016, 07:35 PM   #20
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Biological contamination, aquariums may have foreign bacteria, viruses, etc that would end up being introduced to wild populations with unknown effects. Those bred in captivity may never have survived in the wild so genetic viability of the wild population could be heavily skewed based on numbers released, etc.
What do you think happens at a fish hatchery?


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Unread 03/06/2016, 10:19 AM   #21
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I have 2 and had no idea they were going endangered. What a shame.


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Unread 03/12/2016, 03:30 AM   #22
ThRoewer
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I think catching them at Banggai, their natural habitat, should be limited to broodstock for breeders.

But by now they have become an invasive species at Lembeh Strait - I see no issues catching wild ones for the aquarium trade there.
There they are actually not much better than the lionfish in the Caribbean, and nobody feels those need protection.


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Unread 03/12/2016, 04:43 AM   #23
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If they breed like rabbits in the aquarium then they should be breeding in the wild like rabbits also.


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Unread 03/12/2016, 06:17 AM   #24
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unfortunately if water parameters are not good and there are just too many predators then they will not survive. It is the loss of habitat through the destruction of reefs and pollution that screws up the water quality. The juvenile bangaiis are not making it to adulthood to further grow the population. Thus reducing their wild populations. They are able to proliferate a tank because there are no predators and water quality is pretty good.
It is one of the reasons many people hate the hog farms here in NC because they are polluting the river systems where many of our tasty fish come to breed. poor breeding grounds leads to fewer offspring and even fewer fish to hunt. This applies to all fish whether they are ornamental for our tanks of food to survive.


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Unread 03/15/2016, 05:38 PM   #25
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As said above, there is a big difference in animals that are bred in captivity and ones that are wild. I have no experience with fish, but I work with red wolves. Genetics can play a big part too


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