Possible New Cure for Ick?

[CMSACD]

John F.

I really understand what you are saying as to the proof needed before everyone jumps the gun here. But the truth be told almost all great things start from small ideas. We have an individual that is taking the time to try something new. Unfortunately I or just about anyone else on this board does not have the time/money/means to conduct FDA approved cliical trials on the treament of Ich with ginger. After all what are we talking about here? 100K in grant money just to get the first trials done?

DO I think that this Ich treatment will work? Nope.
DO I hope I am proven wrong? You bet.

So I cheer on anyone that is willing to try something new, take a chance. This is what I think being human is about. Curiosity.

Thanks!!!

[Reef Madness]

The problem with this type of information is it is unproven, and largely based on unskilled observation instead of actual known methods, IE: take a slide of the water, fish gill material, etc. and examine whether the observations are anecdotal or fact.

To my knowledge this isn't happening. Just saying "I don't see any ick" is not a diagnosis.

My suggestion for those with flagyllated protozoans is to use a proven medication for same....metronidazole, AKA flagyl, if you can't catch or trap your fish.

If your fish are eating commercial or prepared foods they will likely eat medicated food (Try finding Tetra's medicated food, discontinued but still available here and there). Will easily cure ick, velvet, etc, in two weeks and treat spot flair-ups due to stress. Really prevents fish from being hosts with flagyl in their tissue. Seachem also has an additive for food.

Why take a chance with ginger when it could also harm your fish?
Ever put ginger on an eye? I wouldn't suggest it for you or your fish.....or garlic for that matter. That would smart!

Please do use *proven* methods and leave the torture of testing to the professionals. This is the equivilent of all of us running our own little research labs with test animals. It's not only impractical, it doesn't provide verifiable results, and it's inhumane and causes unneeded lose of live. There is proven and available means of ick control already, even in your reef tank if you're careful.

Craig Watson

[Joe Bongiorno]

Craig, I can certainly appreciate what you and John are saying. And carried too far, experimentation can result in harm to the fish which is ultimately the last thing anybody wants. So provided no one with a Frankenstein complex is lurking about... Also, we're not talking about dangerous chemical agents here, but rather a natural herb (ginger) that was as admitted at the outset, merely one individual's personal results. No one is being unduly influenced to use this method and the progenitor of this discussion openly stated the unscientific nature of the tests. But this IS how some of the greatest discoveries got their start, and usually it was at the derision of the scientific establishment.

[Fischer]

Out of curiosity:
I recently purchased some Kent Marine Garlic Extreme for about $20.

Did Kent Marine come up with the Idea for Garlic first? or did the Saltwater community online come up with it first?

Maybe in a year, you will see Kent Marine Ginger Extreme?

Not to say that everything you purchase is good for your tank, but I've heard many good things about Kent Marine's products (on this board) and don't hesitate too much before purchasing them (Strontium, Iodine, Garlic Extreme is all at present, but Kalkwasser is next!)

Seriously though - who came up with it first and where is the data to backup it's use and production by Kent Marine?

-Tim

[john f]

The use of Garlic in cryptocaryon is widely accredited to Kelly Jedlicki.
Here is a little bio from a speakers intro:

"Her hobby is "funded" by her extensive hours as a Certified Pediatric Nurse Practitioner. Kelly has used her 17 years in pediatric critical care/transport/surgery and help from Greg Bishop, DVM, and Dan & Lise Christopher from the Shedd Aquarium, to take the hobby a "step further". She routinely performs puffer dentistry, places tubes in her fish to feed or medicate, injects her fish with vitamins, anthelmintics and antibiotics and even performs CPR on her fish. She has been successfully using garlic oil in her fish for almost 3 years"

I have never seen a post of hers on this or any other reef board.

Even she does not use Garlic for full blown Ick, instead uses HYPOSALINITY or COPPER in a QT.


Just some FYI





John

[BiG_KiD]

"Lise Christopher from the Shedd Aquarium".. I will be at Shed this weekend I can't wait to track him down and get his take on the thread..

[BiG_KiD]

is that suppose to be DAN and LISA?

[Fischer]

john f,
I certainly do not want to start anything (at least I don't believe I have to date), but I think you are being a bit overly pessimistic about this.
From what I've read thus far, it is ok to use Garlic because a woman who blows into a fishes mouth and takes care of children does it?

What makes her different than cratlys (dang, forgot how to spell that too!). What does her primary occupation have to do with Garlic and Ich? Nothing. More than likely, she had a thought about the affects of Garlic on the human condition and gave it a whirl. *Maybe the vitamins she injects into her fish are actually Ginger extract???

Isn't the same thing that is being done here? Isn't Ginger also good for the human condition? I believe I read earlier that that is how this whole Ginger idea came about. But some people dismiss the idea entirely because he doesn't give his fish mouth-to-mouth?

I think that's entirely wrong...

I also do think that if there is enough interest in something like this and it appears to work even in a "non-scientific" manner to a large degree - someone with credentials you seem to require will ok it for use.

-Tim (no hard feelings! I'm simply argumentative tonight )

(Of course, I'm apparently one of the few who has never even seen Ich before, so I certainly am no expert on the subject myself)

[TerryB]

I share the concern that people will try ginger and not a proven method such as hyposalinity which can result in a tank full of dead fish. I really don't see a problem with someone trying it as an experiment because you never know if we may learn something. The problem is that so many people will jump on the idea of any reef safe treatment with no proof that it works at all. They pass on the information about something like ginger and the next thing you know people that don't really know squat about it are advising other people to use ginger as a cure.
I have spoken at length with Kelli Jedlicki and what John said about her is true.
One huge difference between garlic and ginger is that garlic is known to have antiparasitic, antiviral, anti-fungal and antibacterial activity. This has been established as scientific fact. This does not mean that garlic has been demonstrated to cure ich. As far as I know ginger has none of these. For one, it can be easily demonstrated that garlic will kill some internal parasites in the digestive tract of fish. This all means that there was some basis to hypothesize that garlic may be a useful agent against pathogens. Where is the evidence that ginger does the same?
BTW, IMO garlic is a better preventative than a cure for ich.
Terry B

[john f]

I can tell that reading comprehension is NOT a stength for some on this forum.

Please be careful and read the entire post before you go spoutin' off about something


John

[Fischer]

john f,
Don't be so hard on yourself. Next time though, try reading the entire thread before jumping to such negative conclusions.

Read Joe Bongiorno's post above if you really want to know my feelings on this whole "experimentation should only be done by certified professionals" load some people are pushing. (even though most are probably not certified in what they are experimenting on...)

Just a guess here, but you don't even look at the DIY forum, do you? Sheesh - all those people experimenting with stuff and no certifications to prove they can or should! Yikes!


I'll just lurke for awhile as this disagreement appears to have hi-jacked the thread a bit, but anyone trying the Ginger treatment - good luck and keep us posted!

-Tim

[FishyCommish]

john f and a few others,

You REALLY need to lighten up and take a step back. Some of your comments are condescending at best, if not simply rude.

This was never presented as a cure or pretended to be a proper "scientific study". It's merely a matter of, "here's something I'm trying guys, I'll keep you posted and let you know what I observe".

Although I wasn't familiar with the origin of garlic use for ich (I'm glad you filled me in on that), many many inventive cures or treatments were discovered in exactly what we are seeing here. Someone has an idea and tries it. At some later point, the scientific community gets involved and does "proper" studies on it and it becomes more accepted and widespread.

I'm sure quite a few of these past discoveries were scoffed at just as you are now belittling this idea. I'm not saying that this certain treatment will or will not work, just that an attitude such as yours does not have any worthwhile place here if you can't enter into a discussion more open minded and provide anything positive.

There I go, spoutin' off again, when will I ever learn.

[mojodeli]

John F makes a good arguement for not using ginger until it has been fully tested and proven to work. He's a medical professional and it is his job to be convicted with such a perspective.

This arguement can easily get out of hand. Since there is only minute anecdotal evidence to rely upon keep in mind that others have the right to be skeptical of ginger dosing techniques.

Debates of this nature have continued for eons. A good example of a current debate that I find stikingly similar to garlic treatment for ich is the late Robert Atkins method for weightloss. After thirty some years of observation and minor research it is only until recently that major findings have come about and yet people are still skeptical. New research indicates in the short term the atkins method will work but since long term empirical data is non existent the method can not be fully recommended.

I have decided to try ginger on my achilles tang. The ginger seems to be working as there have been no ich outbreaks since I started the ginger regime. However, I can not say that it is in fact the ginger that is working. At this point I declare coincidence.

My achilles is so sensitive that I can expect a minor infestation nearly everytime I do a water change. I have witnesses zero infestation is I float a bag of garlic for a few day before the water change and after. I didn't do that last time because I wanted try the ginger. It worked but let's see what happens next month.

[CJ]

Here is a link to an article dated 12/31/00 by Horge Cortes-Jorge Jr. Title: Garlic in the Marine Aquarium. How it may work against Marine Ich.


http://www.geocities.com/horge1218/garlic.html

[adypeckitt]

i dont post here much but my opinion is that if you think that the ginger may be more beneficial than the garlic method, but you are still unsure and feel you are taking a risk of losing the fish, why not just use both?, theres got to be some sort of benefit of it, maybe they work in different ways and some how make some sort of supercure, anyway enuff of a 16 yr olds opinion, maybe someone can test the outcome of both at the same time

[saltycurofaseadog]

everybody started out as an amatuer at one time or another... no one I know was born a professional... . If someone has an idea, don't denigrate it. Read about it and post anything helpful or encouragement about his or hers experiment or study. After all many great ideas came from self taught thinkers who bucked the established educated scientific community and others. If it weren't for christopher columbus, the earth may still be flat,( and the native americans a lot better off ) People would still be having their blood let for ailments and whatnot. And the moon would still be of cheese... ummmm cheeeese . so stop with the I know better than thou clap trap and either support a fellow reefer or provide helpful information. Feel free to post your thinking, but remember, others may not share the same view point... bracing for impact... scotty more power to the shields man. If it works great if not oh well move on

[adypeckitt]

ive just noticed that was my first post(talk about not posting much), ive just thought is there actually any details on how garlic helps to destroy/prevent the symptoms or cause of ick?, if so could it be the same reason ginger could be working?.

[melev]

adypeckitt


To Reef Central

Garlic has been used for some time, and I believe you'll find information about it here on Page 5 of this thread. There were a couple of links included.

If you'll jump back to Page 1, you'll see a post explaining why the originator of this thread decided ginger was a potential cure, and explained why with more detail.

Personally, I found his conclusions interesting, and have been following this thread closely ever since. I've been aware of the common solution, but if this way works conclusively, I'd be ecstatic.

In the DIY forum, I believe someone from this thread (aquaman?) posted about the use of hyposalinity to help the fish heal slowly over 6 weeks, to the point where there wouldn't be any ich left in the tank to attack the fish when it was brought back into the display tank. It went into a lot of detail.

I've read how you can treat the fish in a quarantine tank with various medications as well.

And cleaner shrimp in the display tank will help keep tangs clean and healthy as well.

Feeding with garlic works for many.

Will ginger work as well? We need more experiences from others to know for sure, and it may take a year or more to find out the answer. But I don't feel it is wrong to try, because those results posted here so far show quick improvement in their fish over a couple of days. If the fish was coated with ich, and continued to appear to suffer during a ginger treatment, basically indicating that this is doing nothing at all, I could understand the skepticism far more. But the two or three people that have tried it and posted have seen quick improvement, and I find that promising.

[Aquaman]

Ah the voice of reason finally showed up! For all you folks reading and posting to this thread I submit that TerryB has more knowledge, skill, and research into the parasite known as ICK than almost every reefer that is registered on this board. His words you can bet have solid factual data backing them up.
If he says their is now scientific data backing up this ginger cureall then I for one am willing to believe it.


If people continue to do Seat of the pants experments on their fish then this hobby is doomed! In order to test this hypothesis about the properties of ginger a proper lab test is going to be needed, this is not someting a average hobbiest has! so any evidence the hobbiest shows is anecdotal at best.

Doubt it was me posting about hyposalinity, I've never had to use it to cure ick, I've been very carefull about this and only had one bout of ICK in the 5+ years of reefkeeping. It was in a 30 gallon FOWLR and that tank is long gone!.

[melev]

I'm not familiar with TerryB, but let's ask him here:

Would you be willing to test out this theory, proving one way or another if this could be another way of curing fish of ich?

And since I don't know you, would you please tell me a little about yourself? You must be somebody smart, since Aquaman supports you strongly. This is a sincere question, no sarcasm whatsover. Your profile is empty.

[adypeckitt]

i have also been following this thread from the beginning aswell, but when i say if theres any details on how it destroys ick, i dont mean how to use it practically in the tank, i mean what is in the garlic which actually prevents it, is it a chemical of some sort. and if so could the same chemical be in ginger, as they are both organic materials or do they somehow prevent it in very different ways, ifso, couldnt a mix of them both prove to be the most effective measure against ick, rather than one or the other?

[Aquaman]

Melev,

TerryB was very active many years ago, even before RC was around. He has done a great deal of research and studying in fish parasites and such. I believe he has even written a number of articles that have been published in various magazines. If you ask any member that has been here from the start, or was on Aqualink BBS before RC was around they will know his name and his knowledge base. When it comes to fish parasites, ICK especially I will take his word as fact and gold.

[john f]

Just to be clear:

Terry B did NOT say that garlic had been proven to cure cryptocaryon.
What he did say was there is proof that garlic can rid fish of some intestinal parasites.

I'm not sure if Terry has done any original research on the subject, but he has written articles in hobby magazines and understands the life cycle and treatment for cryptocaryon more than most.
His delivery can be slightly offputting, but judging by some of the responses here.......so can mine

John

[Thales]

The problem is not that people are trying to cure ich with ginger. The problem is that ginger is now spreading around the online reefing community as a cure for ich. Really. Already.

The ginger evidence is radically anecdotal, no one is debating that. However, stronger anecdotal evidence already exists for us to put forth the idea that waterchanges, new bulbs or any of the various Marc Weiss products also cure ich. People tend to dismiss dismiss these cures out of hand. Why these and not ginger?

This is the danger of anecdotal evidence, people believe what they want to believe, dismissing some ideas while accepting others, while the evidence for them is at least equal.

Anedotal evidence has its place, but it also very dangerous. Look at the sales of magnetic healing bands, ionic bracelets and electric fat burners.

[GSerg2]

One huge difference between garlic and ginger is that garlic is known to have antiparasitic, antiviral, anti-fungal and antibacterial activity. This has been established as scientific fact. This does not mean that garlic has been demonstrated to cure ich. As far as I know ginger has none of these.

I hestitated to jump because I don't want to become a target. But with a quick search on the Internet I did find this interesting bit of information about ginger on the website of the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences. I am still very skeptical about a ginger treatment for ich. But this is interesting at any rate. Here are two snippets and a link to the article.


The active ingredients in ginger are thought to reside in its volatile oils, which comprise
approximately 1-3% of its weight10. The major active ingredients in ginger oil are the
sesquiterpenes: bisapolene, zingiberene, and zingiberol11,12. The concentrations of active
ingredients vary with growing conditions. Ginger’s active ingredients have a variety of
physiologic effects. For example, the gingerols have analgesic, sedative, antipyretic and
antibacterial effects in vitro and in animals13,14.



Ginger: Potential Clinical Benefits
1. Cardiovascular: Cardiotonic, antilipemic
2. Pulmonary: none
3. Renal and electrolyte balance: none
4 Gastrointestinal/hepatic: Antinausea/antiemetic, carminative and antiulcer
5. Neuropsychiatric: See Immune modulation: anti-inflammatory for headache
6. Endocrine: Hypoglycemic
7. Hematologic: Antiplatelet
8. Rheumatologic: See Immune modulation: Anti-inflammatory for arthritis
9. Reproductive: none
10. Immune modulation: Anti-inflammatory for arthritis and headache
11. Antimicrobial: Antiviral, antibacterial, antifungal
12. Antineoplastic: Antineoplastic
13. Antioxidant: Antioxidant
14. Skin and mucus membranes: none
15. Other/miscellaneous: Warming/diaphoretic


Full article
http://www.mcp.edu/herbal/ginger/ginger.pdf