Bean Animal Fruatration

Conor_K · 10/20/2018, 09:25 PM

So after 3 slow years of getting my tank going, I finally have it full and ready to circulate.

But no mater what I do the pump chamber in sump is going dry before the syphon starts...

3 chamber sump with highest level at drain side(right) and lowest on return side (left)..

It seems like the pump chamber goes dry before the tank level exceeds overflow height?

Sump is full to 1” of top, 40 gallon. Display is right below return/drain lines which are all level with each other.

Thoughts?

Much Appreciated,
Conor

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SantaMonica · 10/20/2018, 09:51 PM

A larger return compartment would help.

slief · 10/20/2018, 09:55 PM

How deep below the waters surface do the drain lines extend into the sump? It’s generally recommended that they extend no more than 1” below the waters surface.

Conor_K · 10/20/2018, 10:34 PM

I might be closer to 2” below the operating water line. I can easily shorten that up. Will try that.

Pump chamber is just a little less than a third of the sump. Hoping it’s plenty big enough..

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fishcatdog66 · 10/20/2018, 10:50 PM

That is a tough question. Can you provide a few pictures with descriptions of what is happening?

mcgyvr · 10/21/2018, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor_K

I might be closer to 2” below the operating water line. I can easily shorten that up. Will try that.

Pump chamber is just a little less than a third of the sump. Hoping it’s plenty big enough..

Having the lines too deep in the water can certainly make it harder to purge air from the lines and start the siphon..
1" max as stated above..

Are you sure there is enough water in the display tank too?
The water should be right at the point where its about to crest over the overflow weir just as if the power went out and the tank drained on its own..

Pictures and details about pipe/pump/tank,etc... sizes would help too..

Gorgok · 10/21/2018, 07:24 AM

Overflow box size could also be an issue depending on design and pipe placement. A big box draining from the bottom would need more water than one draining just from the top, or a very small one.

Also don't say how deep the returns are, but that would have the same effect.

And don't say what sized tank, which i doubt is an issue, but trying to fill even an inch on a massive tank from only a 40b would be... if you were silly like that.

Conor_K · 10/21/2018, 07:40 AM

So maybe the return height is an issue.

It’s 125g display 4x2x2.

As it sits the return is below the height of the overflow box so I can’t fill the tank to the edge of the overflow.

That’s going to be a real bummer if that’s issue.

Varios 8 pump.

1 1/2 drains. 1” return.

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mcgyvr · 10/21/2018, 08:16 AM

Yep..looks like you need to rotate that elbow 180 deg so its pointing up then add another street 45 to it to have it come straight out.. That should fix it

Conor_K · 10/21/2018, 09:16 AM

Haha. Already in there.

Thanks for jogging my memory. It was a lifetime ago when I drilled this thing. As soon as you mentioned that, I remembered I already had that concoction ready to roll.

Fingers crossed...

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Conor_K · 10/21/2018, 04:11 PM

Got’er!!

Thanks for the help all.

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mcgyvr · 10/21/2018, 04:15 PM

Gorgok · 10/21/2018, 06:31 PM

Yeah, that is a bit of water right there, 4' x 2' by 3"? That would be 15 gallons before you even can think of starting to drain.

mcgyvr · 10/21/2018, 07:45 PM

Is that a diy acrylic overflow box held together by silicone?..
If so I highly recommend changing that to something more stout and reliable..

Conor_K · 10/21/2018, 09:33 PM

Mine?

Nope, it’s a diy made of glass held together by silicone.

Tank’s been running all day quite nicely finally. Tested an outage a few times with nice results.

Little bit of noise from the water in sump spilling from drain chamber to middle, but I can deal with that for now. I don’t have the cabinet all closed up yet.

Pro 4 is bringing the temp up nicely at the moment. Salt goes in soon. The start of a cycle is in my sights...

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mcgyvr · 10/22/2018, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor_K

Mine?

Nope, it’s a diy made of glass held together by silicone.

yeah yours... I couldn't tell if it was glass or not from the pictures..
Just checking..

Also looks to be typical single strength thickness glass too (2.5mm)..
I'm not sure I'd use single strength glass for anything in the hobby but as it will typically have water on both sides it "should" be ok.. I'd be worried I'd bump it at some point and crack it..

Again... just commenting in case it helps..

Conor_K · 10/22/2018, 07:54 AM

Maybe I should take a better picture.. haha.

It’s 1/4 in. Over 6 mm.

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mcgyvr · 10/22/2018, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor_K

Maybe I should take a better picture.. haha.

It’s 1/4 in. Over 6 mm.

Just hard to tell from this side of the internet...
If 1/4" then all good.. Enjoy..

Conor_K · 10/22/2018, 12:30 PM

No worries.

I appreciate the input. I’ll be back for plenty more...

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ravi197699 · 10/27/2018, 07:09 AM

you need to make your returns little higher, based on the picture water level in display tank is dropping too much and it takes a lot of water from sump to bring to level where it can start draining into sump, if you install lock line or turn the return upwards so that when water pump turns off there should be minimum water level drop from display. I hope it makes sense,,

mcgyvr · 10/27/2018, 06:43 PM

Welcome to last week ravi

Conor_K · 11/05/2018, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Welcome to last week ravi

Hahaha. Tank’s been running nicely now. Ammonia is slowly on the rise.

I’m struggling to find the sweet spot on the return, keeping it high, but not so high that is agitating the surface too much while also not pushing my sand around too much has been a challenge.

I have thought a out loc-line but have read an awful lot of bad reviews on it.

I’m pretty happy with my flow rate with the varios8 running at level 4. I don’t really want any more restriction.

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homer1475 · 11/06/2018, 03:51 AM

I have yet to figure out why everyone around here hates loc-line? I use it, always have, and have tried without it.

I personally find that being able to point my returns far outweighs the slight bit of head pressure they add. I've actually measured my returns only because I was curious. Without the loc-line I have an increase of about 3 gallons/h. Not enough of a difference in my case.

Besides I can have them pointed upwards for that nice ripple effect across the top of my water, and I have them high enough that I only get a couple gallons drain back on a power failure(IE. No need for a siphon break as they act as one themselves). Also with the addition of the random flow generators, they work even better now!

10/20/2018, 09:25 PM	#1
Conor_K Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Canandaigua, NY Posts: 152	Bean Animal Fruatration So after 3 slow years of getting my tank going, I finally have it full and ready to circulate. But no mater what I do the pump chamber in sump is going dry before the syphon starts... 3 chamber sump with highest level at drain side(right) and lowest on return side (left).. It seems like the pump chamber goes dry before the tank level exceeds overflow height? Sump is full to 1” of top, 40 gallon. Display is right below return/drain lines which are all level with each other. Thoughts? Much Appreciated, Conor Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

10/20/2018, 09:51 PM	#2
SantaMonica Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Santa Monica, California, USA Posts: 2,511	A larger return compartment would help. __________________ Inventor of the easy-to-DIY upflow scrubber, and also the waterfall scrubber that everyone loves to build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1424843

10/20/2018, 09:55 PM	#3
slief RC Sponsor Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 14,173	How deep below the waters surface do the drain lines extend into the sump? It’s generally recommended that they extend no more than 1” below the waters surface. __________________ Director Customer Support Royal Exclusiv USA For All Royal Exclusiv & Bubble King questions please refer to our Sponsor forum: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=745 Current Tank Info: 480G display mixed reef, 90G sump, 90G refugium, 60G display refugium. Check out my build thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1783476

10/21/2018, 08:16 AM	#9
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Yep..looks like you need to rotate that elbow 180 deg so its pointing up then add another street 45 to it to have it come straight out.. That should fix it __________________ Who me?

10/21/2018, 04:15 PM	#12
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	__________________ Who me?

10/20/2018, 10:34 PM	#4
Conor_K Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Canandaigua, NY Posts: 152	I might be closer to 2” below the operating water line. I can easily shorten that up. Will try that. Pump chamber is just a little less than a third of the sump. Hoping it’s plenty big enough.. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

10/20/2018, 10:50 PM	#5
fishcatdog66 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Calgary,Canada Posts: 216	That is a tough question. Can you provide a few pictures with descriptions of what is happening?

10/21/2018, 07:24 AM	#7
Gorgok Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 1,904	Overflow box size could also be an issue depending on design and pipe placement. A big box draining from the bottom would need more water than one draining just from the top, or a very small one. Also don't say how deep the returns are, but that would have the same effect. And don't say what sized tank, which i doubt is an issue, but trying to fill even an inch on a massive tank from only a 40b would be... if you were silly like that.

10/21/2018, 07:40 AM	#8
Conor_K Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Canandaigua, NY Posts: 152	So maybe the return height is an issue. It’s 125g display 4x2x2. As it sits the return is below the height of the overflow box so I can’t fill the tank to the edge of the overflow. That’s going to be a real bummer if that’s issue. Varios 8 pump. 1 1/2 drains. 1” return. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

10/21/2018, 09:16 AM	#10
Conor_K Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Canandaigua, NY Posts: 152	Haha. Already in there. Thanks for jogging my memory. It was a lifetime ago when I drilled this thing. As soon as you mentioned that, I remembered I already had that concoction ready to roll. Fingers crossed... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

10/21/2018, 04:11 PM	#11
Conor_K Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Canandaigua, NY Posts: 152	Got’er!! Thanks for the help all. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

10/21/2018, 06:31 PM	#13
Gorgok Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 1,904	Yeah, that is a bit of water right there, 4' x 2' by 3"? That would be 15 gallons before you even can think of starting to drain.

10/21/2018, 07:45 PM	#14
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Is that a diy acrylic overflow box held together by silicone?.. If so I highly recommend changing that to something more stout and reliable.. __________________ Who me?

10/21/2018, 09:33 PM	#15
Conor_K Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Canandaigua, NY Posts: 152	Mine? Nope, it’s a diy made of glass held together by silicone. Tank’s been running all day quite nicely finally. Tested an outage a few times with nice results. Little bit of noise from the water in sump spilling from drain chamber to middle, but I can deal with that for now. I don’t have the cabinet all closed up yet. Pro 4 is bringing the temp up nicely at the moment. Salt goes in soon. The start of a cycle is in my sights... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

10/22/2018, 07:54 AM	#17
Conor_K Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Canandaigua, NY Posts: 152	Bean Animal Fruatration Maybe I should take a better picture.. haha. It’s 1/4 in. Over 6 mm. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

10/22/2018, 12:30 PM	#19
Conor_K Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Canandaigua, NY Posts: 152	No worries. I appreciate the input. I’ll be back for plenty more... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

10/27/2018, 07:09 AM	#20
ravi197699 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 567	you need to make your returns little higher, based on the picture water level in display tank is dropping too much and it takes a lot of water from sump to bring to level where it can start draining into sump, if you install lock line or turn the return upwards so that when water pump turns off there should be minimum water level drop from display. I hope it makes sense,,

10/27/2018, 06:43 PM	#21
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Welcome to last week ravi __________________ Who me?

11/06/2018, 03:51 AM	#23
homer1475 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 5,313	I have yet to figure out why everyone around here hates loc-line? I use it, always have, and have tried without it. I personally find that being able to point my returns far outweighs the slight bit of head pressure they add. I've actually measured my returns only because I was curious. Without the loc-line I have an increase of about 3 gallons/h. Not enough of a difference in my case. Besides I can have them pointed upwards for that nice ripple effect across the top of my water, and I have them high enough that I only get a couple gallons drain back on a power failure(IE. No need for a siphon break as they act as one themselves). Also with the addition of the random flow generators, they work even better now! __________________ 80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256 Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht: "He's just taking his lunch to work"