I Fragged My Carpet Last Night

[phender]

Originally posted by keefsama2003
Anthony / Phil / anyone else

is there a way to check the water or is there some kind of test we can do to check for anything in the water that may come from the anemone that can cause significant fish losses? i mean if we can say its the nemocysts that come off with the slime when we do this can we formulate some kind of trap to catch them? not saying we should all go out and try this but for those in the same situation.

I am a little bit sensitive to the stings of my Merten's carpet. Even when cleaning the tank I can sence a little tingle. I'm my case, my hands and arms did not sence any nematocyst activity in the water when my fish were stressed/dying. It was obvious however that the anemone was producing lots of slime.
That is not very scientific, but that's all I got.

[phender]

If I ever do this again I would certainly do things differently. The size of this anemone made the logistics a little more difficult than fragging a BTA.
In the future I would get a couple grey food service trays and plumb them together in parallel to their own sump with a mechanical and chemical filter. These would be used as de-sliming tanks. I knew it was important to de-slime the cut anemones, but I was under impression that this was for the anemones health and not for the safety of the fish. I did try to rinse the slime from the anemone, but it produced slime for over an hour. There is no way I could have rinsed the anemone for that long with established water from their tank. Next time I will do a large water change after I pull the anemone and use the waste water in the de-sliming trays.
Since there was no way I was going to be able to control the slime problem, I figured the best solution would be to get the anemone back into the tank that had been supporting it for three years. It was a good decision for the anemone, a bad one for the fish. Yes, I have read that disturbed H. magnifica have produced something that caused fish wipe-outs in tanks, but I had never heard of anything like that happening with any type of carpet, and I've been around a while. Now I know and it has been documented, or maybe it already was and I missed it.
Quite frankly, much of what I found on the internet is contradictory. In one case an expert says to "just cut it in half and put it back in the aquarium as close to where it was as possible". In another statement, the same person says the anemone should be put into isolation to avoid chemical warfare that may exist in its normal tank. It is very difficult to find information on what to do in the time frame after the cut is made. I believe MDP has found this to be true in his preparation for dividing his gigantea.
A lot of people are asking questions and a lot of people are talking about it, but the answers to most people's questions are overly simplified.
I know Matt (MDP) posted a question on another board a few days ago. From the answer I couldn't tell if he was supposed to cut his anemone while it was underwater in his display tank or if he was supposed to separate the two halves in the display after they had been cut. Either way, to me a "display" is a tank with other inverts and fish. (this is the same expert that gave the advice above) I'm glad I didn't read this before I made my cut, or I would be very upset with the expert. As is, I am just a little disappointed in myself.

["Umm, fish?"]

No, no. I hope you didn't take my statement above as criticism. You are being the guinea pig for the rest of us and, from what I can tell, the rest of us are trying to figure out some sort of protocol from your experience. Thank you for documenting for us.

Is it possible for you to get any new pics for us anytime soon? Thanks!

[Dan]

Seems that you would have felt nematocysts if the water was full of them. I wonder if there may have been a drastic pH change. The inside of an anemone is just a big digestive cavity. That usually means low pH. Big anemone, 50 gallon tank, maybe dumped a bunch of acidic water that overwhelmed the buffering capacity. Next brave soul should check the pH of all that water that spills out after the slice. Other than that, all that slime just may have been too much tox all at once. A good cleansing system will go a long way in the future.

Dan

[MDP]

dantodd.

Thanks for that. As you note I was referring to the "chop shop" we see with zoos and SPS wherby they are imported because of their rarity/high value or demand and immediately fragged and sold on.

The point I was making was that this simply won't be possible with anemones. Too much TLC is needed before the propagation can start. Thus hopefully anemone prop will/can only be carried out by those who know what they are doing and not those just looking to make a fast buck.

[phender]

Originally posted by "Umm, fish?"
No, no. I hope you didn't take my statement above as criticism. You are being the guinea pig for the rest of us and, from what I can tell, the rest of us are trying to figure out some sort of protocol from your experience. Thank you for documenting for us.

Is it possible for you to get any new pics for us anytime soon? Thanks!

Aww, I was just being a little over sensitive. I wasn't barking back at you anyway.
After I re-read the posts I was responding to, I almost deleted my last post, but I looked at my post again and figured there was some info there that people might see as valuable or might share my frustration, so I let it stay.

I didn't take any pictures today because they look the same as yesterday. I am considering releasing the anemone in the basket back into the aquarium. I'm not sure that it is getting enough flow and its getting more light than it is used to. I will wait until tomorrow to decide in case anyone wants to give some input.

I fed the clownfish some frozen Formula 1 last night. Some food stuck to the tentacles of both anemones(I consider that a good sign). Neither anemone brought the food to their mouth. I'm guessing because they don't actually have one yet!

I will post pics tomorrow whether I think they look the same or not. Maybe someone will see something that I need to watch that I haven't noticed

[Rare Angels]

Phil,

That was a very brave move and I compliment you for having the nerve to try it.

I like your idea of using some types of trays along with some mechanical and chemical fitration for a rinsing system. I will be very interested to see your results in the coming months.

You are always a very informative topic creator and very positive in all your replies. I hope everything works out for the best.

Dave

[55semireef]

So how come many people end up failing keeping carpets under pcs (excluding haddonis)?

[shutiny]

Nice job! I wished that I could have been there to observe the process.
Thanks for sharing the valuable info with us. May be some day soon, there would be more aquacultured large sea anemones available to us all.
Thanks

[traveller7]

Originally posted by 55semireef
So how come many people end up failing keeping carpets under pcs (excluding haddonis)?

Most folks are failing to keep carpets under any kind of lighting.

As far as PCs, IMHO: most folks are not running enough tubes for the popular selections(too little daylight, too much 10K/03), don't change the bulbs with proper frequency, and are not likely using enough tubes in general.

fwiw: I almost always treat my bleached anemones to recovery under 3x28wt pendants in shallow tanks until they color up....then to MH's. PCs have a place in the hobby, not over my 32" deep tanks, but they definitely have a place.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by Dan
Seems that you would have felt nematocysts if the water was full of them. I wonder if there may have been a drastic pH change. The inside of an anemone is just a big digestive cavity. That usually means low pH. Big anemone, 50 gallon tank, maybe dumped a bunch of acidic water that overwhelmed the buffering capacity. Next brave soul should check the pH of all that water that spills out after the slice. Other than that, all that slime just may have been too much tox all at once. A good cleansing system will go a long way in the future.
Dan

FWIW I don't know if one would necessarily feel anemone nematocysts shed into a water column. (I've never felt nematocysts unless I come in direct contact with an anemone.) It probably depends on the sensitivity of the aquarist, the species of anemone and aquarium volume/filtration turnover rate. A good filtration system could rapidly remove shed nematocyts while the aquarist that just placed a freshly sliced anemone in the display aquarium wonders why his/her fishes are suddenly breathing heavily and hiding in the rockwork (acting very similar to a fish that inadvertently got stung by an anemone). I would think that a big quick change in pH would affect inverts more so than fishes. Whatever the stuff a freshly cut anemone produces is lethal to certain fishes and not invertebrates (IME).

I would add another caution to what Anthony posted. No one should rush to frag any newly imported anemone. If you can't keep an anemone alive for an extended length of time it's unlikely you'll have success fragging a big host anemone. These creatures are most definitely more sensitive than corallimorphs and octocorals. It would be great to see CP anemones supply demand for the aquarium trade, but I'd hate to see a thread like this cause a rash of new anemone hackers move in and kill even more anemones.

Originally posted by 55semireef
So how come many people end up failing keeping carpets under pcs (excluding haddonis)?

what species of "carpet anemone"? (no macro yet, Scott )
It all depends on the type of carpet anemone species you're referring to because they all have different husbandry requirements.
I know of two people that have had success with Merten's carpet anemone under VHO only lighting in deep aquariums.
A Haddon's anemone in the same system might not last but a couple of months. A gigantea in such a situation might not even survive for a few days.
traveller7 is right: Most folks are failing to keep carpets under any kind of lighting.

[delphinus]

I feel your pain. I know it's hard to lose your fish, it's happened to me now a few times. And even when I thought I took adequate precautions (when I was moving an anemone), it turned out that I wasn't. Unfortunately this hobby can be risky business at times. All I can offer is that hindsight is 20/20, everytime we try something, we learn something new and hopefully know something better for the next time(s).

But I do commend you for trying this, and sharing your learnings. At least from the educational aspect something good will come out of this.

The more documented cases, the better off our collective body of knowledge will be.

[latinbeachboy10]

Phil,
I have been following this post for a while now and again, thank you for sharing your knowlege with us.

I have had my rose anemone (now 6") and my seabe anemone (12"+) for a year now and they are doing very well in my tank. A few months ago I heard someone at the LFS I worked at talking about propogating roses and he brought 3 in that used to be one that he propogated.

Since then I have be entertaining the idea of splitting my nems.
With your information and that of a few other people I can now make a more educated decision on the procedure.

I will post on here with my findings if I decide to do this in the following months.

Thanks again!
~Christian~

[dantodd]

6" seems pretty small for fragging IMO.

[phender]

Well, here are the 96 hour pictures as promised. The feet are still in a horseshoe shape. Although they both usually hold themselves in a circle, the separation is still there. The cut part of the column still has a lot of stuff I would rather not see exposed, but there isn't any decomposition or infection that I can tell.

Here is the in- tank half. The tentacles are still under inflated, but I can understand that. I've added a close-up of the mouth. The over exposed white (actually yellow) cresent is the edge of what use to be the mouth. The little brown bag-like structure are the tissues that billow out of the mouth at feeding time (I'm assuming part of the stomach). The thing that looks like a rock under the cresent is......a rock.



Here is the in-basket half. I think I will leave it in the basket for a while. Its tentacles are a little better inflated and the extra light doesn't seem to be hurting it. Sorry about the ripple distortion.


I have noticed on occasion that food held in the tentacles for a while seems to get mushy, like perhaps the toxins in the nematocysts are starting the digestion process before the food gets to the mouth. Anybody know whether or not the tentacles are able to absorb food molecules before the main job is done by the stomach?

[phender]

Originally posted by latinbeachboy10
...I have had my rose anemone (now 6") and my seabe anemone (12"+) for a year now and they are doing very well in my tank. A few months ago I heard someone at the LFS I worked at talking about propogating roses and he brought 3 in that used to be one that he propogated.

Since then I have be entertaining the idea of splitting my nems.
With your information and that of a few other people I can now make a more educated decision on the procedure....
~Christian~

If the measurements are from tentacle to tentacle, they might be a little small. If the measurements are just the oral disk, then I think that size would be about perfect for both.

[Name That Tune]

OMG that took some pretty big Ba*ls.

[ricordiaking]

Hey phender, wow man that's great I hope they pull all the way for you.

["Umm, fish?"]

Thanks for the photos! Heck, they're looking a lot better than I would have expected. Fingers are still crossed for you.

[Dan]

Looking good. An experiment worthy of the "Aquarist of the Year" award. Awesome, Phil.

Agree with husbandry first, fragging second. With that said, I disagree with not encouraging more people try this with a variety of anemones. Yes, we'll lose some. But the only way to move forward to the goal of CB anemones tomorrow is to experiment today. I am sure most of the CB fish, corals, and inverts that we are able to get today were dead experiments yesterday. Aquaculture didn't get where it is today without losing a lot of critters trying to discover what works. Hats off to all who have tried. Keep it up. Learn, learn, learn. And share what you learn so the next person can go to the next step.

Dan

[55semireef]

what species of "carpet anemone"?

Gigantea or Merten. Haddonis are more forgiving than those.

[phender]

Originally posted by 55semireef
So how come many people end up failing keeping carpets under pcs (excluding haddonis)?

I think what it come do to is what habitat is the species adapted to.
I have to admit that I have never see any type of carpet in the wild and gladly stand corrected if need be, but here are my thoughts.

S. gigantea is commonly found in very shallow water (we are talking tidepool shallow). Haddoni (with a few notable exceptions) and Merten's can be found in deeper water.

PC lights simply don't seem to supply the biological needs that gigantea is adapted to. You would think that feeding it a lot would make up for the lack of light, but it doesn't seem to (at least it didn't when I tried it). I don't think giganteas are ever found in very deep water. If that is true, then there must be something in that bright light that they need that we have not quite figured out.

On the otherhand, haddoni and mertensii are sometimes found in shallow water but more often in deeper water. They can live in lower light levels in nature, which allows them to live in lower light levels in our tanks. Lower light levels is a relative term. We are still talking LPS/Leather coral type intensity.

[55semireef]

Phender that is probably true for i havn't seen carpets in the wild either but I am talking about fish tanks. A lot of people ususally fail with Haddonis and Mertens under PCs. Its probably more than just light thats playing a factor.

[bluerug]

Originally posted by 55semireef
Phender that is probably true for i havn't seen carpets in the wild either but I am talking about fish tanks. A lot of people ususally fail with Haddonis and Mertens under PCs. Its probably more than just light thats playing a factor.

Really?

[BonsaiNut]

By the way Phil, it should probably be mentioned that S. gigantea can be grown from larval stage to full adulthood in natural sunlight with no supplemental feeding whatsoever...