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Old 11/07/2018, 01:26 PM   #326
Chasmodes
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Next up: building the foundation of a living ecosystem!
If I wasn't doing the low carb diet, I'd already have started cooking the popcorn! Looking forward to that post!


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Old 11/07/2018, 02:27 PM   #327
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Good question! Let me see…
Next up: building the foundation of a living ecosystem!
This is the part that I am really interested in. I came in after that part was all finished with your tank the 1st time around and then I lurked a long time because I was too insecure to speak up. Now I am open and ready to learn about this process!


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Old 11/08/2018, 08:15 AM   #328
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If I wasn't doing the low carb diet, I'd already have started cooking the popcorn! Looking forward to that post!
You can safely eat popcorn and not break the rules of your carb diet. :0)


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Old 11/08/2018, 01:19 PM   #329
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I agree! The next part gets very interesting. Laying the foundation for an ecosystem starts at the bottom. My ideas on substrate have evolved and I'm dying to pontificate! I'm very tempted to get right into it, but I don't want to get ahead of myself too much, just yet. I think it would be better to discuss it when I'm actually doing it. Once I get through these system fixes I'll be free to really delve into the juicy stuff.

For now I'll just tease you with some general stuff to wet your appetite.

The big picture of what I'm attempting to do is provide the necessary ingredients to form a natural, functioning ecosystem, in the confines of a plastic box. Though I do have priorities, like growing seagrass, I'm thinking of the whole system. I'll be trying to balance and orchestrate natural processes, with the practical issues of aquarium keeping. I believe Nature can play a much bigger part than it currently does. I hope to learn a lot from this experience and pass it on to others. Can't wait!


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Old 11/10/2018, 07:08 PM   #330
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Saturday I sanded and finished up the new fake wall. Here's a couple pics:


From the end. Not too bad. Obviously, the color doesn't match up. I sprayed it with a bleach solution to see if I can lighten it up.


Through the front panel. I think I can live with this. Assuming it works!

Sunday I'd like to get wiring and plumbing done. Maybe fill it up with water to test the wave pump. I should get the fake root placed too. It's happening.


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Old 11/10/2018, 07:25 PM   #331
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I like. Good work!


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Old 11/10/2018, 07:36 PM   #332
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Thanks Sam!

It's OK. I like that it takes minimal space, for what it is concealing. It looks kind of natural. It'll look more so when life starts to colonize it. Now I need to see if it all functions as planned.


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Old 11/11/2018, 07:12 AM   #333
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I like it too. The texture matches the old part well. Like you said, when life begins to colonize it, any color difference should be less obvious. That is so cool having a tank with no intrusive pieces of equipment showing! That is what some of us have strove for our whole aquaria life!


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Old 11/11/2018, 09:23 AM   #334
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Thanks Dawn! And thanks for reminding me that I did accomplish my goal of hidden equipment. I'm happy with it, for the most part. I just hope it works!


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Old 11/11/2018, 06:38 PM   #335
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Sunday I got the wave box wiring done, as well as the UV-to-canister filter combo plumbing. Unfortunately we left the hoses out and now they're under a foot of snow. I was going to use a hose to fill the tank quickly. Now my family has taken over the living room, so I'm done.

I was unable to set up the fake mangrove root. More cracks and two attachment points broken. It doesn't look good. For now I'm going to set up the tank without it. It may be salvageable, I'm not sure. Let's see how bad I miss it. I will miss the powerhead. It shot a stream of water down the back wall, including the coast to coast refugium. It was half of a gyre flow pump scheme. On the other hand, its effect on the overall current, and it's effect on the seagrass wasn't ideal. I won't miss that. I'm hoping that the wave pump will more than make up for the loss. And without the mangrove root, my tank would seem ideal for a wave box.

Wet test and buffing out the viewing panels is next. The buffing will be a workout, but I'm thrilled to be able to do it!


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Old 11/12/2018, 08:05 AM   #336
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You're strongly making me want to set up a planted tank again Mike


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Old 11/12/2018, 09:24 AM   #337
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Thanks NikonN8, and welcome!


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Old 11/12/2018, 05:27 PM   #338
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I had a thought about doing a wet test. Since the light diffuser on the bottom is used to help hold down the fake walls, I shouldn't fill the tank until I've buried it with the substrate.

I should get started on the buffing first, then add substrate and then fill 'er up! I guess I'll also be able to talk about substrate now, so yay!


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Old 11/13/2018, 06:10 AM   #339
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I had a thought about doing a wet test. Since the light diffuser on the bottom is used to help hold down the fake walls, I shouldn't fill the tank until I've buried it with the substrate.

I should get started on the buffing first, then add substrate and then fill 'er up! I guess I'll also be able to talk about substrate now, so yay!
Yay, this is the part I am especially interested in so I am very excited. No detail is too small Michael, so don't feel like you are boring us because I want to know as much as you can teach us!


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Old 11/13/2018, 11:03 AM   #340
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OK, here we go!

As I said before, this will be an aquarium showcasing Nature, and run by Nature. The substrate will be the foundation of that. Most of all, I want it to be a good home, for both seagrasses and a wide variety of micro and macro life. Rather than a pretty, sterile decoration, I want a 'workhorse' that plays a huge role in the overall ecosystem.

I hope to grow seagrass as the major structuring element of the community. Since seagrasses are higher plants, they have roots dedicated to extracting nutrients from the substrate. In order to provide a good home for them, I need to provide a fertile substrate. So, I will incorporate dirt and mud in it, along with the sand. I've been soaking some garden soil in water for months, and I have a good source of live mud. Once the tank is up and running, fish food, fish wastes and other organic particulates will continuously settle on the substrate, where they can be processed by detrivores, etcetera, recycling them into nutrients the seagrass can use.

How will I provide a good home to detrivores? Most of the substrate will be fine and soft, so they can easily move through it and find their ideal location. Larger grain sizes will also be provided, for some refuge at the substrate surface. Most importantly, I will not be filtering out particulates or attempt to keep them in suspension. There will be no mechanical filtration. Instead, detritus will be allowed to settle on the bottom, where the detrivores can get to them, just as they would in a lagoon setting. I'm hoping to introduce a diverse 'cast of thousands' through the addition of live rock, live sand and live mud. I'll also be incorporating some specific characters that can be added separately. I was able to save a good number of spaghetti worms from the old tank. They are currently flourishing in my holding tank. I'll be adding mixed pods, serpent stars and a sea cucumber as well. All of these creatures will be a vital part of the food web.

With a heavily planted tank, bacteria's role is reduced. But I do want to provide habitat for a variety of them. Some need a lot of oxygen, some need a little, some need none. Substrate depth, as well as grain size, can provide diverse levels of oxygen to accommodate diverse species of bacteria. Larger grain sizes at the top will allow higher oxygen levels in the pore water. Medium grain sizes at the mid level will provide lower oxygen levels. Very small grain sizes and mud at the bottom will provide habitat for bacteria needing no oxygen.

So the theme of my substrate is diversity. The more diversity, the more stable the ecosystem. Fostering diversity in the confines of a box is challenging, but all the more important, given the limits of space available.

The space limitation also calls for some limits on diversity. Obviously, we wouldn't add a large predator that eats all our fish. Accordingly, I don't plan to add any creatures that would prey on the ones that help maintain the food web. For example, wrasses. These fish are smart, hunting machines. They can devastate populations of pods and other tiny creatures that are needed to keep the system functioning. So we have to prioritize our choices to optimize the overall function of the ecosystem. No one species is more important than the the whole.

I hope you find this interesting! I think substrate dynamics are woefully under appreciated in the hobby. Any questions?


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Old 11/13/2018, 01:22 PM   #341
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OK, here we go!

As I said before, this will be an aquarium showcasing Nature, and run by Nature. The substrate will be the foundation of that. Most of all, I want it to be a good home, for both seagrasses and a wide variety of micro and macro life. Rather than a pretty, sterile decoration, I want a 'workhorse' that plays a huge role in the overall ecosystem.

I hope to grow seagrass as the major structuring element of the community. Since seagrasses are higher plants, they have roots dedicated to extracting nutrients from the substrate. In order to provide a good home for them, I need to provide a fertile substrate. So, I will incorporate dirt and mud in it, along with the sand. I've been soaking some garden soil in water for months, and I have a good source of live mud. Once the tank is up and running, fish food, fish wastes and other organic particulates will continuously settle on the substrate, where they can be processed by detrivores, etcetera, recycling them into nutrients the seagrass can use.

How will I provide a good home to detrivores? Most of the substrate will be fine and soft, so they can easily move through it and find their ideal location. Larger grain sizes will also be provided, for some refuge at the substrate surface. Most importantly, I will not be filtering out particulates or attempt to keep them in suspension. There will be no mechanical filtration. Instead, detritus will be allowed to settle on the bottom, where the detrivores can get to them, just as they would in a lagoon setting. I'm hoping to introduce a diverse 'cast of thousands' through the addition of live rock, live sand and live mud. I'll also be incorporating some specific characters that can be added separately. I was able to save a good number of spaghetti worms from the old tank. They are currently flourishing in my holding tank. I'll be adding mixed pods, serpent stars and a sea cucumber as well. All of these creatures will be a vital part of the food web.

With a heavily planted tank, bacteria's role is reduced. But I do want to provide habitat for a variety of them. Some need a lot of oxygen, some need a little, some need none. Substrate depth, as well as grain size, can provide diverse levels of oxygen to accommodate diverse species of bacteria. Larger grain sizes at the top will allow higher oxygen levels in the pore water. Medium grain sizes at the mid level will provide lower oxygen levels. Very small grain sizes and mud at the bottom will provide habitat for bacteria needing no oxygen.

So the theme of my substrate is diversity. The more diversity, the more stable the ecosystem. Fostering diversity in the confines of a box is challenging, but all the more important, given the limits of space available.

The space limitation also calls for some limits on diversity. Obviously, we wouldn't add a large predator that eats all our fish. Accordingly, I don't plan to add any creatures that would prey on the ones that help maintain the food web. For example, wrasses. These fish are smart, hunting machines. They can devastate populations of pods and other tiny creatures that are needed to keep the system functioning. So we have to prioritize our choices to optimize the overall function of the ecosystem. No one species is more important than the the whole.

I hope you find this interesting! I think substrate dynamics are woefully under appreciated in the hobby. Any questions?
Thank you Michael. I actually think I understood most of that in terms as to how you are going to do it and also why.

I am guessing any sandsifting fish as well as wrasses are out. What sort of cucumber and what part of the puzzle does it play? The cucumber I had was a sandsifting detritivour and I would think that would be out. Is it one of those little yellow types that stay above the surface?

So do you lay all the layers at once, or do you allow life to colonize each layer first? I guess anything anaerobic must have an enviroment that is without oxygen if its going to colonize so some areas will have to be deep right from the get go.

I can see that some of your limitations are...well, too limiting for my tastes but I still want to learn as much as possible to possibly craft a hybrid between what your tank embodies and other macro tanks.


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Old 11/13/2018, 02:22 PM   #342
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That's a great post Michael! I love this plan and can't wait to see the next version of your implementation. In my tanks, I enjoy the micro life, worms, pods, and invertebrates as much as the fish...almost. Yours will have a plethora of life, so very interesting.


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Old 11/13/2018, 10:16 PM   #343
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Thanks Dawn!

Not all sand sifters are bad. Sea cucumbers, like spaghetti worms, are good because they process detritus down the chain to eventually feed the plants. Wrasses, sand-sifting fish and sand-sifting sea stars are predators of detrivores, so for me, they are bad. Make sense?

The sand bed will be built up all at once, more or less. Since I'm still ordering some of it, some might get added before I get it all, but there won't be any layer by layer colonization. Generally, it will be layered with the finest stuff on the bottom and the coarsest at the top.

I'm curious where you see limitations. What do you mean?


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Old 11/13/2018, 10:22 PM   #344
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Thanks Kevin!

Yeah, the micro life is fun stuff! I'm no expert but I'm learning. Maybe that's what makes it so fun. With a little luck, this tank will have lots more to teach me!


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Old 11/14/2018, 06:23 AM   #345
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Thanks Dawn!

Not all sand sifters are bad. Sea cucumbers, like spaghetti worms, are good because they process detritus down the chain to eventually feed the plants. Wrasses, sand-sifting fish and sand-sifting sea stars are predators of detrivores, so for me, they are bad. Make sense?

The sand bed will be built up all at once, more or less. Since I'm still ordering some of it, some might get added before I get it all, but there won't be any layer by layer colonization. Generally, it will be layered with the finest stuff on the bottom and the coarsest at the top.

I'm curious where you see limitations. What do you mean?
Yes, thank you for clarifying about the detrivores. It does make sense.

When I said it was too limiting, I did not mean that what you are building has limitations. What I meant was that my vision for my future tank is almost certainly going to include a wrasse. I love natural ecosystems but they are in place to showcase my fish. Your fish will be in place to showcase the ecosystem, so our focuses are somewhat different even though I greatly admire and appreciate what you are doing.


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Old 11/14/2018, 06:41 AM   #346
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“I think substrate dynamics are woefully under appreciated in the hobby.”

Michael,
Your point about detrivore predators is right on target. Due to Red Planaria infestation, I introduced a Melanurus Wrasse to my 25 year old 6” deep sand-bed, it caused a major upset that required me to remove > 80% of sandbed.

In adding substrate with differrent grain sizes, eventually, the finer substrate will migrate to the bottom no matter where it is placed.

With respect to getting dirt from back yard, I take great pleasure in shocking the bare bottom group that promotes sterile conditions in their tanks. PaulB has promoted this concept for 47 years.

Keep the good news coming.


Dawn,
Anaerobic conditions do not necessarily have to be a deep sandbed. Fine silt or mud can promote anaerobic activity with 0.5” substrate.


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Old 11/14/2018, 08:03 AM   #347
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Hi Michael, terrific plan and I think it will work quite well, though I do think you will have to interfere on occassion to keep the system in balance. Consider yourself the Ma'at of your system. :0)

What I mean is this (and you've probably thought of it too) - despite the well planned system and players within, you're still likely to end up with an overabundance of waste/nutrients/etc. at some point. Probably not often but if you consider in nature there is a constant churn and waste products do not all settle in to the substrate on a macro bed. In your tank, however, it will. I really don't know how you can combat this effectively other than vacuuming the very top of the substrate every so often. But it may be something to consider. Don't mean to pick nits, and this is a pretty small nit. :0) You have me thinking though... when I see plans laid out by other people I think of it from my own perspective. "How would I approach this?" This really seems like a "watch and enjoy" system... easily 99% hands-off. That is going to be very enjoyable for you! Looking forward to seeing this wet.


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Old 11/14/2018, 09:34 AM   #348
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Cool

This is awesome, I can't wait to see it progress further!

Ever since I started on this hobby when I was 12 the appeal to me was always to play fish god and create the most complete ecosystem possible within such a limited physical space.

There's just something humbling to try and replicate billions of years of natural process, using nature itself as your teacher. And once you find success the satisfaction of beholding what you've accomplished is unequal to anything I've ever experienced in the hobby.

Currently my saltwater tank is quite underwhelming, it's made to be as simple as possible. It's a 21 gallon with a single Orchid Dottyback, a massive colony of flower leather coral and a forest of caulerpa and ulva with dozens of different critters living in it.

The tank is so stable I have only done 3 water changes in five years, and they have all been when I moved house. The Dottyback spends all day hunting amongst the algae so I do not need to feed him at all.

0 nitrates, 0 phosphates, 0 maintenance.

Sorry for rambling, I just realised I haven't spoken about this hobby in years and seeing this thread lit a spark inside me that I forgot was there.


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Old 11/14/2018, 09:43 AM   #349
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OK Dawn, thanks for clarifying. I don't really see it as a limitation. Don't we all choose to avoid certain fish? Certainly we all have different philosophies and methods, and I realize mine are pretty out there!


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Old 11/14/2018, 09:56 AM   #350
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Thanks Patrick! You make some good points. Melanurus Wrasses, like a lot of the wrasses, are gorgeous, but maybe too good at what they do, for some setups. If I had to choose a wrasse for this tank, I think I'd choose the Flasher Wrasse. They are more of a water column plankton picker, and less of a benthic hunter.

Thanks for chiming in!


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