Saltwater vs freshwater

[Dmorty217]

Well then please forgive me. There are plenty of trolls on here that start a account and then post random questions that get a debate going all just to try and get 50 posts to be able to sell and buy. I for one had a freshwater aquarium when I was 10 and from 15 until now (16yrs) have only owned saltwater. I was being polite about it by the way

[whiteshark]

There are some truly stunning freshwater tanks out there. And I'm sure there can be a lot to keep you occupied as far as maintenance goes.

That said, nothing beats saltwater for things to keep you occupied. And that's what I love about it. I'm always, always learning in this hobby. It's forced me to become knowledgeable in carpentry, plumbing, electrical, chemistry, biology and more. It's not the end result for me. I love the beauty of a reef tank, but I get more enjoyment out of building a stand, drilling a tank, plumbing it, building a sump, adding reactors, tweaking dosing regimes, water testing, and just learning all there is to learn in this hobby. The scope of a reef is enormous compared to any freshwater ecosystem. Everything about a reef is more complex, more diverse, more sensitive, and more interesting.

Just as a quick example of the depth to which you can go on just one topic can be illustrated in the following article:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/5/chemistry

And virtually everything to do with this hobby can go into that much depth. I just never got that same kind of stimulation from freshwater tanks. Once they were set up, they more or less took care of themselves; and that's no fun. Beautiful, but no fun and comparatively less interesting.

[Radiation91]

Originally Posted by Dmorty217

Well then please forgive me. There are plenty of trolls on here that start a account and then post random questions that get a debate going all just to try and get 50 posts to be able to sell and buy. I for one had a freshwater aquarium when I was 10 and from 15 until now (16yrs) have only owned saltwater. I was being polite about it by the way

Oh I see! I forgot about that 50 posts to buy/sell thing. I can see why you thought I was a troll No offense taken, water under the bridge!

I'm still in the "extremely excited to get started but have to wait" phase so I'm going to be pretty active on the forum. If you're worried about me being a troll then just ban me from the buy/sell section for peace of mind

[Mrramsey]

Originally Posted by Radiation91

Thanks for the vote of confidence there Gilligan. I thought I might have misread what Dmorty was saying until you commented. Feeling better now



I'm not sure how, but I've never realised FOWLR was "Fish Only With Live Rock" until now. I thought it was a brand of tank like Red Sea

Also, like you, I am looking at the FW tanks and wishing they had more impressive colours. Don't get me wrong, my FW tanks look great but I'd like some colours other than green

I tore down all of my freshwater tanks to do saltwater.

[Raul-7]

I like both; but with SW it's much harder to do right - so many more things to monitor and it's less forgiving. When I mean right, I man I want an aquarium that is aquascaped to provide me with eyecandy and relaxation. That is easily achievable with FW compared to SW.

I rarely see a reef tank that is aquascaped using rules, etc. that makes it visually pleasing to the eye. I understand it's much harder in SW, but I think it's half the fun.


Moreover, most of the really nice fish like Tangs require large tanks.

[Dmorty217]

Originally Posted by Radiation91

Oh I see! I forgot about that 50 posts to buy/sell thing. I can see why you thought I was a troll No offense taken, water under the bridge!

I'm still in the "extremely excited to get started but have to wait" phase so I'm going to be pretty active on the forum. If you're worried about me being a troll then just ban me from the buy/sell section for peace of mind

Knowledge is power and there is plenty of knowledge to be learned on this forum. Trust me I know the excitement stage. I have a 220g setup now and have but I have a 625g sitting in my back room waiting for my house to be built so I KNOW the excitement feeling!

[KafudaFish]

I would like to see photographs of natural feshwater systems that the fw crowd copies for their tanks.

There are plenty of reef pictures around but I am interested in seeing the other underwater world.

Can anyone help?

[Bilk]

Originally Posted by Radiation91

This could start a huge debate but I'm willing to try!

I've always been fascinated by corals and I decided to join the fishkeeping hobby with a Freshwater tank because it's cheaper and supposedly easier. Now that I've got experience... I'm looking towards a coral tank.

So, I'm calling on you fellow Reefers to share your experiences!

Which is best... Saltwater or Freshwater?
Pros and cons of each?

I look forward to seeing what you all think!

Rad91

I don't think there's a "best" in this. I guess it depends upon your interests. I never had a freshwater tank so I can't advise on the maintenance. However I think if you can keep and maintain one, you can keep and maintain the other.

[pitmindi]

I had freshwater tanks and then tried a saltwater reef tank and eventually all the tanks became saltwater. My largest tank was the 125 gallon community freshwater tank thats 6' and it was great but then I decided to do a planted tank and then I added discus and it was cool but very hard to keep plants but not algae and eventually I had black brush algae that I couldn't get rid of and it took over so I just gave up and turned that tank into a saltwater tank.

[pitmindi]

The best thing about freshwater compared to saltwater is the ease of water changes. I did a significant water change in my freshwater tanks at least every month. Also the fish are so much cheaper and there is more of a variety that can be kept together in a freshwater tank. Also you can keep more fish in freshwater. A planted tank is much harder than a saltwater tank. Ask if you have any questions. btw my saltwater tank doesn't have a refugium since it was impossible to add one so I have a hang on skimmer. I tried to do a saltwater planted tank with macro algae and it was beautiful until algae attached to the plants and overtook them. Now I have red flame algae which is slippery so algae doesn't overtake it and xenia which is also too slippery for algae to attach and the tank it looks pretty

[Radiation91]

Originally Posted by pitmindi

A planted tank is much harder than a saltwater tank. Ask if you have any questions.

Ok that's got my attention! Why do you think Planted Tanks are much harder than SW tanks?

I've got a heavily planted FW and it's borderline self regulating. I do a WC every 2 weeks but the nitrates go up so slowly I could leave it for probably 8 weeks before I needed to do anything. I just feed them once per day. Never cleaned the tank... EVER. I only clean the fluval prefilter sponge and impeller just for maintanace but that's it. I don't have CO2... is that where Planted tanks become harder than SW?

[mandarin_goby]

Originally Posted by KafudaFish

I would like to see photographs of natural feshwater systems that the fw crowd copies for their tanks.

There are plenty of reef pictures around but I am interested in seeing the other underwater world.

Can anyone help?

The main themes I see for FW planted tanks are iwagumis with more focus on the hard scape - lots of rocks, less tall plants, ie mosses and tiny-leaved plants that form a low carpet everywhere, and Dutch- style which is kind of the opposite. They focus on plants and more plants, clustered in groups with little hard scape (rocks and wood). The 1st pic is an iwagumi, the second is dutch, those are the 2 main themes I see, but of course many FW plant enthusiasts aim somewhere in between the 2 styles.

I favor the dutch-style - just so peaceful and serene, a true water garden with bonus fish. I can appreciate the simplicity of the iwagumi too, but by no means are they easier! That even carpet requires lots of maintenance to grow so evenly - requiring a more hi tech set up with CO2 injected to spur plant growth and lots of pruning.

[jrp1588]

Originally Posted by Radiation91

Ok that's got my attention! Why do you think Planted Tanks are much harder than SW tanks?

I've got a heavily planted FW and it's borderline self regulating. I do a WC every 2 weeks but the nitrates go up so slowly I could leave it for probably 8 weeks before I needed to do anything. I just feed them once per day. Never cleaned the tank... EVER. I only clean the fluval prefilter sponge and impeller just for maintanace but that's it. I don't have CO2... is that where Planted tanks become harder than SW?

If you don't have to add nitrate or CO2, then you've got a low to medium light tank, those are super easy. A high light high tech planted tank requires constant dosing and testing, even more so than your average reef tank.

[mandarin_goby]

Originally Posted by jrp1588

If you don't have to add nitrate or CO2, then you've got a low to medium light tank, those are super easy. A high light high tech planted tank requires constant dosing and testing, even more so than your average reef tank.

I just started a 75 gallon FW tank with CO2 ...it's a whole new world, for sure, been doing lots of reading regarding bubbles of CO2 per second, etc. I'm glad I can grow basically anything, but yeah, the idea of ferts is a little scary. I know the ferts/CO2 is for the plants, but the fish are almost an afterthought because of pH swings when the lights/CO2 turn on and off, so that scares me a bit. My current 55 low tech runs itself, it's very easy, but by no means boring...I rearrange the scape here and there to keep things fresh.

With the reef, I'm not as anxious to rearrange anything - my thinking is that happy corals shouldn't be moved! Plants bounce back after a move much more easily than corals, I think.

[whiteshark]

Originally Posted by jrp1588

If you don't have to add nitrate or CO2, then you've got a low to medium light tank, those are super easy. A high light high tech planted tank requires constant dosing and testing, even more so than your average reef tank.

Wow that's unexpected and somewhat hard to believe. I'm dosing calcium, alkalinity and magnesium daily in small increments every hour. It just so happens that the doser takes care of the dosing for me, but I monitor levels through testing quite often as well.

I'm curious, can you present an example of a dosing and testing regime on one of these high tech tanks? Not because I'm trying to be confrontational, but because you've piqued my interest.

[jrp1588]

Originally Posted by mandarin_goby

I just started a 75 gallon FW tank with CO2 ...it's a whole new world, for sure, been doing lots of reading regarding bubbles of CO2 per second, etc. I'm glad I can grow basically anything, but yeah, the idea of ferts is a little scary. My current 55, low tech runs itself, it's very easy, but by no means boring...I rearrange the scape here and there to keep things fresh.

With the reef, I'm not as anxious to rearrange anything - my thinking is that happy corals shouldn't be moved! Plants bounce back after a move much more easily than corals, I think.

Yep, corals crave stability. I was successful in my old high tech planted tank for a while, but eventually I had cyano problems that I just couldn't fix. I suspect my crap source water was throwing things out of balnce. I'd probably have more success now that I have an RO unit, but SW is way more interesting anyway.

[jrp1588]

Originally Posted by whiteshark

Wow that's unexpected and somewhat hard to believe. I'm dosing calcium, alkalinity and magnesium daily in small increments every hour. It just so happens that the doser takes care of the dosing for me, but I monitor levels through testing quite often as well.

I'm curious, can you present an example of a dosing and testing regime on one of these high tech tanks? Not because I'm trying to be confrontational, but because you've piqued my interest.

It's been a few years since I had a FW planted tank, so I don't remember specifics. I remember dosing nitrte, phosphate, potasium, and micronutrient mix daily. I think there are a couple others I'm forgetting. You also have to inject CO2 once you reach that level, if you consider that a form of dosing.

[whiteshark]

Originally Posted by jrp1588

It's been a few years since I had a FW planted tank, so I don't remember specifics. I remember dosing nitrte, phosphate, potasium, and micronutrient mix daily. I think there are a couple others I'm forgetting. You also have to inject CO2 once you reach that level, if you consider that a form of dosing.

So in that respect it can come close to the maintenance on a reef tank. I imagine a doser could dose all those as well. You could probably add a controller like an Apex to monitor the CO2 addition.

Not to swing this discussion too far away from it's intended topic, but would you run an RO/DI when running a freshwater tank?

[mandarin_goby]

People do use RO/DI for discus...they require super clean water and tons of water changes - too high maintenance for me!

[jrp1588]

Originally Posted by whiteshark

So in that respect it can come close to the maintenance on a reef tank. I imagine a doser could dose all those as well. You could probably add a controller like an Apex to monitor the CO2 addition.

Not to swing this discussion too far away from it's intended topic, but would you run an RO/DI when running a freshwater tank?

I said it was more dosing than your AVERAGE reef tank. Not everyone doses their reef daily, I know I don't. I'm sure a controller could be used for FW planted, but they don't (or at least didn't back then) seem to be common for whatever reason. I'd never heard of them until I got into reefing.

As far as RO in FW goes, sure it can be used. You have to add back in some trace and buffer elements, but it ensures you are starting with good water, unlike the liquid rock phosphate filled crap my city is pumping.

[KafudaFish]

Originally Posted by mandarin_goby

The main themes I see for FW planted tanks are iwagumis with more focus on the hard scape - lots of rocks, less tall plants, ie mosses and tiny-leaved plants that form a low carpet everywhere, and Dutch- style which is kind of the opposite. They focus on plants and more plants, clustered in groups with little hard scape (rocks and wood). The 1st pic is an iwagumi, the second is dutch, those are the 2 main themes I see, but of course many FW plant enthusiasts aim somewhere in between the 2 styles.

I favor the dutch-style - just so peaceful and serene, a true water garden with bonus fish. I can appreciate the simplicity of the iwagumi too, but by no means are they easier! That even carpet requires lots of maintenance to grow so evenly - requiring a more hi tech set up with CO2 injected to spur plant growth and lots of pruning.

Thank you for the explanation.

What I meant was I can take a picture of a reef and copy it but where are the images for fw? I would like to see some.

[joshky]

Originally Posted by Radiation91

Reasons for FW

• SW tanks all look the same
• FW tanks are much cheaper
• Without an automated system, SW tanks are always on your mind
• There is much more flexibility with the aquascaping of FW. (similar to point 1 with slight differences apparently)
• You can buy cheap and still get great results
  
• Very low maintenance - getting a sitter for your tank is much easier.
• FW looks fresher than SW - interpret that however you wish!

I love freshwater aquascapes, but the good ones are NOT low maintenance, they are by far way more maintenance than reefs. You have to trim plants SO much to achieve what you want and then you have to do even more trimming to keep it that way. I would say on a high tech planted system you will be in your tank every day trimming, obviously it depends on the plants in the system and how big your tank actually is.

[mandarin_goby]

Originally Posted by KafudaFish

Thank you for the explanation.

What I meant was I can take a picture of a reef and copy it but where are the images for fw? I would like to see some.

Oh, as found in nature? Sorry about that! I think people are mostly inspired by Amazon river biotopes from what I've seen - lots of driftwood, tea-colored water (from tannins in the wood - fish love that tint but some aquarists don't) and leafy plants like Amazon swords...that all I can think of for now. Mainly you see people's interpretation of that kind of setting - it was hard for me to find what an actual natural setting looks like to be honest! I guess the best representation of a true biotope is what you see at national aquariums, like the Amazon displays at the Shedd and Baltimore aquariums. I found a pic of the Shedd's display...not many pics out there :/

The Nature style aquariums by Amano mix what he's seen in nature in the rain forests, for example, with Zen principles (I think iwagumi is a type that represents Zen ideals the most). I don't think they're true translations of nature but interpretations with aesthetics and composition in mind. He recreates forests/nature, something you would actually see outside, underwater.

[KafudaFish]

Originally Posted by mandarin_goby

Oh, as found in nature? Sorry about that! I think people are mostly inspired by Amazon river biotopes from what I've seen - lots of driftwood, tea-colored water (from tannins in the wood - fish love that tint but some aquarists don't) and leafy plants like Amazon swords...that all I can think of for now. Mainly you see people's interpretation of that kind of setting - it was hard for me to find what an actual natural setting looks like to be honest! I guess the best representation of a true biotope is what you see at national aquariums, like the Amazon displays at the Shedd and Baltimore aquariums. I found a pic of the Shedd's display...not many pics out there :/

The Nature style aquariums by Amano mix what he's seen in nature in the rain forests, for example, with Zen principles (I think iwagumi is a type that represents Zen ideals the most). I don't think they're true translations of nature but interpretations with aesthetics and composition in mind. He recreates forests/nature, something you would actually see outside, underwater.

Thanks again. You pretty much made my point of it appears that many FW tanks are landscapes with fish thrown in with the exception of some of the biotopes that are created.

They are beautiful works of art that are artificial: waterfalls, bonsai inspired moss trees, and perfectly sized substrate with "dry" river beds.

I know that it is often stated that the fw group is far ahead of the sw group for aesthetics but between the two, sw when done correctly does a better job of representing the underwater world.

Both are beautiful but for different reasons to me.

[jrp1588]

Originally Posted by KafudaFish

Thanks again. You pretty much made my point of it appears that many FW tanks are landscapes with fish thrown in with the exception of some of the biotopes that are created.

They are beautiful works of art that are artificial: waterfalls, bonsai inspired moss trees, and perfectly sized substrate with "dry" river beds.

I know that it is often stated that the fw group is far ahead of the sw group for aesthetics but between the two, sw when done correctly does a better job of representing the underwater world.

Both are beautiful but for different reasons to me.

Depends on your idea of aesthetics. Some of the artsy high end FW tanks seem to like emulating terrestrial landscapes. It looks neat, but seems kind of silly to me. I want a little slice of nature in my tank (enhanced a bit of course, it's not really natural to have 30 species of coral within a few square feet. )