UV Sterilizers? Pros and Cons?

[Reef Moss]

UV Sterilizers? Pros and Cons?

[Alfrareef]

Originally Posted by Reef Moss

UV Sterilizers? Pros and Cons?

Love it!
Never had a sick fish since I’ve turned on the UV.

[Anotherplanet]

If you get one, one of the only real deal out their is Pentair and it can be purchased through Bulk Reef Supply. I would not rely on UV as a means to treat ich, but a method for keeping your water astonishingly clear.


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[Dsekula]

Originally Posted by Anotherplanet

If you get one, one of the only real deal out their is Pentair and it can be purchased through Bulk Reef Supply. I would not rely on UV as a means to treat ich, but a method for keeping your water astonishingly clear.


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What do you mean one of the only real deals is pentair? Not that I'm knocking pentair, their a fine name in water treatment imo but their far from the only ones? Their one of few that advertise their product for aquariums though... UV like all water sanitation is based on contact time. This is how powerful the disinfectant is (in this case the wavelength of uv) in conjunction with how long it is in contact with the water. As long as you size the pump correct with the correct lamp the job gets done. Some systems have more bells and whistles like auto wipers, alarms, controller modules, smart gear, intensity monitors. But if the lamp and pump are the same the rest is just extra.
Pentair makes some good water treatment systems don't get me wrong but if you scrap the word aquarium when you search online you will find many more brands that are just as good and some better or worse.

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[ComforablyNumb]

Waste of money unless you have a green water algae bloom.

[ReefkeeperZ]

Pros: kills stuff in the water column how much and what depends on contact time and power of bulb.

cons: kills stuff in the water column how much and what depends on contact time and power of bulb. added electrical cost, bulb replacement cost, cleaning and maintinence.

In my opinion UV sterilizers are great for hospital tanks when doing treatments for ich or other external parasites with a larval stage as long as it is powerful enough with enough dwell time to kill the theront stage. may be beneficial in fighting a green water bloom in a DT, but overall IMO best for hospital tanks or run only as needed.

[Antegon]

Originally Posted by ReefkeeperZ

Pros: kills stuff in the water column how much and what depends on contact time and power of bulb.

cons: kills stuff in the water column how much and what depends on contact time and power of bulb. added electrical cost, bulb replacement cost, cleaning and maintinence.

In my opinion UV sterilizers are great for hospital tanks when doing treatments for ich or other external parasites with a larval stage as long as it is powerful enough with enough dwell time to kill the theront stage. may be beneficial in fighting a green water bloom in a DT, but overall IMO best for hospital tanks or run only as needed.

+1. And their use is good to prevent blooms, but they seem to do very little to existing outbreaks, and shouldn’t be used with the assumption that they’ll fix that problem. No substitute for water levels where you want them. Totally fine to run once in a while or before/during adding new livestock to DT as a back up. Otherwise, hospital/quarantine tank for sure.


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[Antegon]

Originally Posted by Antegon

+1. And their use is good to prevent blooms, but they seem to do very little to existing outbreaks, and shouldn’t be used with the assumption that they’ll fix that problem. No substitute for water levels where you want them. Totally fine to run once in a while or before/during adding new livestock to DT as a back up. Otherwise, hospital/quarantine tank for sure.


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Also bulbs lose their power quick, and smaller units don’t provide enough bulb contact time without really throttling back the flow, which most stock pumps that come with them (and a lot don’t even have that) don’t have that feature without mods.


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[Dsekula]

Originally Posted by Antegon

Also bulbs lose their power quick, and smaller units don’t provide enough bulb contact time without really throttling back the flow, which most stock pumps that come with them (and a lot don’t even have that) don’t have that feature without mods.


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Antegon,
I was reading your posts and think you cold be causing some of your own issues when using uv so I just wanted to give you a heads up.
Did you know each time you turn a uv bulb on an off you cut the life of your lamp?
I work with many water systems that use UV as primary water treatment. Without going into tons of detail I've seen frequent power outages alone cut lamp life from 12-18mos (which is average in my experience) to 4-6mos. I've even seen this with two similar systems running the same units. While I agree most tanks don't need these all the time if it's not hurting anything you may want to leave it on to save your lamps obviously make your own decision here as you may want to consider electric cost vs lamp and ballest replacement, but ime it's worth some consideration because those lamps do get expensive.


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[Antegon]

Originally Posted by Dsekula

Antegon,
I was reading your posts and think you cold be causing some of your own issues when using uv so I just wanted to give you a heads up.
Did you know each time you turn a uv bulb on an off you cut the life of your lamp?
I work with many water systems that use UV as primary water treatment. Without going into tons of detail I've seen frequent power outages alone cut lamp life from 12-18mos (which is average in my experience) to 4-6mos. I've even seen this with two similar systems running the same units. While I agree most tanks don't need these all the time if it's not hurting anything you may want to leave it on to save your lamps obviously make your own decision here as you may want to consider electric cost vs lamp and ballest replacement, but ime it's worth some consideration because those lamps do get expensive.


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Great to know, ty! I have certainly been treating my bulb poorly then, haha. I had assumed the opposite, so great tip!
So if bulb life is not an issue, is there Any downside to running them outside of cost?


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[Dsekula]

Originally Posted by Antegon

Great to know, ty! I have certainly been treating my bulb poorly then, haha. I had assumed the opposite, so great tip!
So if bulb life is not an issue, is there Any downside to running them outside of cost?


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It depends on what system you run but on very basic models with just a ballast, lamp, huosing, quartz, and pump I haven't found any. Most pumps and ballasts also do better with continued use than on/off or ramping up and down unless your running vfd units which arnt common for home aquariums. Just my experience you'd have to get someone with more electrical knowledge to ask why .
If you have something with auto wipers that clean the quatrz you age the quartz faster but it's roughly 7 vs 10 years. If you have other electrical components like array sensors or intensity alarms you'd have to check them specically as I really don't know. You do need to make sure they have continued flow or they will overheat and burn out pretty quick so you can't just leave it on with no pump etc.
This is just in regards to your equipment I don't know if there is any negative side to running them on the aquarium 24/7 in regards to the livestock as I'm only a two year in salt noobie so you may have to ask around on that side. I tried to research this before running mine 24/7 and couldn't find any really good scientific or even widely replicated anecdotal evidence. I assume (which I hate doing)this has to do with uv beeing relatively "new" in regards to wide spread aquarium use. If any more experienced reefers can share their insight on this I'd love to hear.

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[RobZilla04]

I use one simply for water clarity. It sure does help with that! As for it being a preventative for disease, don't bank 100% on the UV doing that alone.

[D-Nak]

As others have mentioned, don't use it thinking it'll solve all of your problems, especially disease control. In order to fully eradicate ich, for example, you'd need to have 100% of the water in your system flow through an appropriately sized sterilizer. In order to do that, you need slow flow moving through a large UV to get the appropriate contact time.

For example, in order to eradicate protozoa, you would need to buy a high output 50 watt unit (for $724.99 @BRS) and run only 300GPH through it to get the proper contact time. In contrast, for algae and bacteria, the max GPH is 1980. So, if you're running system where you want to run 600GPH through it, you'd need to spend $766.99.

IMO that's a LOT of money for something that does so little. It makes sense on breeding systems where you're protecting a high investment in broodstock, but not so much on a DT and normal systems where most people have more flow going through filter system than what would be considered effective to kill pathogens.

[Dsekula]

D- nak,
That's true if you need on that flow rate but I don't see why you would? I have a roughly $400 house hold unit rated for 15gpm with an appropriate sized pump looped on my system out side the normal flow rate. This is nsf rated for inactivation of virus and bacteria. Is there some reason this wouldn't work that I'm missing?

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[D-Nak]

Originally Posted by Dsekula

D- nak,
That's true if you need on that flow rate but I don't see why you would? I have a roughly $400 house hold unit rated for 15gpm with an appropriate sized pump looped on my system out side the normal flow rate. This is nsf rated for inactivation of virus and bacteria. Is there some reason this wouldn't work that I'm missing?

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I think you're missing the part about protozoa (such as Cryptocaryon irritans aka "ich") and virus/bacteria requiring different contact times to kill it.

I just going off what the BRS website says:

Water Flow Rate
Protozoa
180,000 µWs/cm²
Suggested:260 GPH
Maximum:330 GPH

It's different for algae and bacteria:

Water Flow Rate
Algae and Bacteria
30,000 µWs/cm²
Suggested: 1560 GPH
Maximum: 1980 GPH

You can see that the flow rate needs to slow down significantly to eradicate protozoa.

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by Dsekula

D- nak,
That's true if you need on that flow rate but I don't see why you would? I have a roughly $400 house hold unit rated for 15gpm with an appropriate sized pump looped on my system out side the normal flow rate. This is nsf rated for inactivation of virus and bacteria. Is there some reason this wouldn't work that I'm missing?

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He is talking about protozoan pathogens. They require significantly longer contact time than bacteria, viruses or algae. Bacteria and viruses are not a major concern for the saltwater fish, there are "reef-safe" methods to threat these diseases and they are rarely deadly even when not treated.

Almost every major saltwater fish disease is protozoan based (ich, brooks, velvet, uronema). And to have a UV system that is effective against those, you would need an impractically large unit. Aside from the direct cost of the unit and the expensive replacement bulbs, it will draw considerable amounts of electricity and heat the tank up (which will require more electricity to cool down).

And even if you do this, it will still not eradicate 100% the protozoan pathogens and take a large toll on the beneficial micro-fauna such as copepods and countless other beneficial protozoa, bacteria, fungi, algae, larvae, or in general, phytoplankton and zooplankton.

For all these "costs", for the same price you can keep several cycled large qt tanks.

I dont think UV units provide any significant benefit unless your water is unclear and you want to clarify it.

[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by D-Nak

I think you're missing the part about protozoa (such as Cryptocaryon irritans aka "ich") and virus/bacteria requiring different contact times to kill it.

I just going off what the BRS website says:

Water Flow Rate
Protozoa
180,000 µWs/cm²
Suggested:260 GPH
Maximum:330 GPH

It's different for algae and bacteria:

Water Flow Rate
Algae and Bacteria
30,000 µWs/cm²
Suggested: 1560 GPH
Maximum: 1980 GPH

You can see that the flow rate needs to slow down significantly to eradicate protozoa.

And even then it will not threat protozoan diseases. Every protozoan pathogen that causes problems in this hobby have a relatively short free swimming stage. They are either attached to a substrate or a host fish for the most of their lives. So a system that can eradicate them needs to catch 100% of the pathogens in free swimming stage before they can "attach somewhere", in order to break the life cycle.

This is something nearly impossible due to practical reasons. I dont know the exact numbers, but I imagine a 20 gallon qt would probably need to have a UV turnover rate higher than 2000 gallons per hour to catch 99% of frees swimming protozoans. This would also need to be a very long and powerful UV to have enough contact time with 2000GPH (more then the one you listed). Aside from this, you cant keep a fish in 20 gallons with 2000GPH flow rate.

For a larger tank, numbers would just get ridiculous.

[mako61]

I have the SMART UV 40 WATT from BRS about $400. I run 200ish GPH to it on my 110g tank. It is very long almost 4 feet. It uses about 50 watts actual power. ( apex graph )

It keeps my water very clear. I have had no fish disease issues, not sure thats related. I also run a little activated carbon. My fish look like they are floating in air.

I run it 24/7. The only time I turn it off is when I turn off the return pump for water changes 1-2 times a month. I have an apex so its automatic. Its laying on the floor behind my tank. I got some clamps that I attached as "feet". Mine is kinda of a pain to drain and get out. ( but its once a year ) Im happy with the unit itself its well made but really very simple.

[D-Nak]

Originally Posted by Tripod1404

And even then it will not threat protozoan diseases. Every protozoan pathogen that causes problems in this hobby have a relatively short free swimming stage. They are either attached to a substrate or a host fish for the most of their lives. So a system that can eradicate them needs to catch 100% of the pathogens in free swimming stage before they can "attach somewhere", in order to break the life cycle.

This is something nearly impossible due to practical reasons. I dont know the exact numbers, but I imagine a 20 gallon qt would probably need to have a UV turnover rate higher than 2000 gallons per hour to catch 99% of frees swimming protozoans. This would also need to be a very long and powerful UV to have enough contact time with 2000GPH (more then the one you listed). Aside from this, you cant keep a fish in 20 gallons with 2000GPH flow rate.

For a larger tank, numbers would just get ridiculous.

Thanks for starting that discussion, I didn't even want to get into that part!

I was just talking about the ability to kill IF it passes through the UV.

[Dsekula]

Originally Posted by Tripod1404

He is talking about protozoan pathogens. They require significantly longer contact time than bacteria, viruses or algae. Bacteria and viruses are not a major concern for the saltwater fish, there are "reef-safe" methods to threat these diseases and they are rarely deadly even when not treated.

Almost every major saltwater fish disease is protozoan based (ich, brooks, velvet, uronema). And to have a UV system that is effective against those, you would need an impractically large unit. Aside from the direct cost of the unit and the expensive replacement bulbs, it will draw considerable amounts of electricity and heat the tank up (which will require more electricity to cool down).

And even if you do this, it will still not eradicate 100% the protozoan pathogens and take a large toll on the beneficial micro-fauna such as copepods and countless other beneficial protozoa, bacteria, fungi, algae, larvae, or in general, phytoplankton and zooplankton.

For all these "costs", for the same price you can keep several cycled large qt tanks.

I dont think UV units provide any significant benefit unless your water is unclear and you want to clarify it.

I understand what he's talking about, we use UV in wastewater plants as final treatment and I assist in sizing these units. If the unit is rated with an nsf/ansi 61a it can be used as primary treatment and all water coming out of the unit would be clear/sanitized etc. This includes such things as e-coli, cryptosporidium, and giardia so unless the tank is contaminated with something more resistan than these (which it may be idk I never compaird CT) it should work in theory. The factor would be to get all of your water through the unit during one freeswimming time frame, again in theory.
Nsf/ansi 61b is a secondary unit rating
Nsf/ansi 55 a/b will work in the same way but will not monitor that it is working.
These rating are usually where price points come into play.

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[Dsekula]

As a side note I hope noone takes this as arguing, I love my career an scaling down what I do to apply to my aquarium and getting feedback

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[Tripod1404]

Originally Posted by Dsekula

I understand what he's talking about, we use UV in wastewater plants as final treatment and I assist in sizing these units. If the unit is rated with an nsf/ansi 61a it can be used as primary treatment and all water coming out of the unit would be clear/sanitized etc. This includes such things as e-coli, cryptosporidium, and giardia so unless the tank is contaminated with something more resistan than these (which it may be idk I never compaird CT) it should work in theory. The factor would be to get all of your water through the unit during one freeswimming time frame, again in theory.
Nsf/ansi 61b is a secondary unit rating
Nsf/ansi 55 a/b will work in the same way but will not monitor that it is working.
These rating are usually where price points come into play.

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The issue comes down to practicability. BRS states 260-330 GPH over a 30" x 6" long sterilizer with a 50W bulb is required to kill all the protozoans passing through the unit.

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/emper...v-50-watt.html

Now to catch all the free swimming protozoans in a tank before they attach, what would be the required turnover rate? I dont know that, but I assume it would be at least 100X per hour. So for a small 20 gallon tank, you would need 2000 GPH. Based on the specifications of the unit above to kill protozoa, you would need a bulb that is ~350W and a tube that is ~200" long to have equivalent contact time.

That makes it impossible due to practical reasons. A bulb that strong will heat the water very rapidly. And a 200" x 6"tube that long has a volume of 24 gallons (more than the 20 gallon tank).


In water treatment, I assume you are only interested in output water being pathogen-free. In this case, you need the entire tank to be pathogen free. It would be like feeding the output water back to the reservoir and just circulating that water through the UV. Output water would be pathogen free, but if you cannot pass the water through the unit fast enough, there will always be pathogens within the tank. And the flow required to achieve that makes it impracticable.

[Reef Moss]

Thank you for the responses. I am only getting one because of slight cloudiness. I decided to go with one that has the pump and UV all in one does up to 125 Gallons ( I have a 75) for $60 the replacement bulbs are $25. So the way I see it a lot of the ones you are talking about are 500 or more plus the pumps and hookup so basically $700. So I buy my $60 UV and 3 replacement bulbs per year and that is $140 first year and $75 each year after. So in 4 years I have not spent what and expensive on is. And it is all contained. The uint has just as good reviews as the $700 on mentioned here. We will see how it works out.

[tlc]

i added a vectra uv sterilizer to my system. i couldnt be happier. its an 8 watt version on about 60 gallons of water. i barely have to use carbon anymore. its not a miracle worker but a tool in the reef

[slief]

Originally Posted by Dsekula

What do you mean one of the only real deals is pentair? Not that I'm knocking pentair, their a fine name in water treatment imo but their far from the only ones? Their one of few that advertise their product for aquariums though... UV like all water sanitation is based on contact time. This is how powerful the disinfectant is (in this case the wavelength of uv) in conjunction with how long it is in contact with the water. As long as you size the pump correct with the correct lamp the job gets done. Some systems have more bells and whistles like auto wipers, alarms, controller modules, smart gear, intensity monitors. But if the lamp and pump are the same the rest is just extra.
Pentair makes some good water treatment systems don't get me wrong but if you scrap the word aquarium when you search online you will find many more brands that are just as good and some better or worse.

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There are a lots of UV’s out there. Most are garbage. They use poor quality bulbs and have poor designs. Most are designed for use in fresh water too and their ratings aren’t applicable to marine usage. The best is AquaUV. They not only have the best design in terms of contact time with higher flow rates, they also make their own bulbs which happen to be the best bulbs on the market. And at the heart of a great UV is the bulb. Unlike the cheap UV’s out there that use poor quality bulbs that need to be replaced ever 6 months or less to maintain effectiveness, the AquaUV’s are good for a year or more. Pentair would be a close second to AquaUV. My contention with Pentair is that since they bought emperor aquatics who designed that UV, support went to hell in a handbag. Not only that but all their flow ratings are based on green water. Not reef. AquaUV has great support. You can reach a support person there Monday through Friday on the first call and they know their products well and how it relates to our use. They also do their homework for our application and have done plenty of studies for reef enviornment. I trust them infinitely more than Pentair. Not only that but the AquaUV products are much more widely distributed and as such, parts can be found at dealers all across the country.

That said, there is much more to a quality UV than just water clarification. A quality UV that is properly sized and properly setup can have a very significant impact on overall water quality as eveidenced by it’s impact on ORP. I run a 114 watt AquaUV on my 700 gallon system that has over 70 fish in it and is packed end to end with thriving corals. My UV has a +100 point impact on my ORP. In fact, it has more of an impact than ozone ever did on my system. I am a firm believer in UV sterilzers but if you are going to do it, don’t waste money on cheap ones like those from the Chinese manfacturers or the gimmick ones that claim higher ratings than their UV is good for.. IE Twist.

And as far as real deal, not sure exactly what that was meant to mean but price wise, better prices can be found on the AquaUV’s than the Pentairs.