Help, new frag issue STN

ReefsandGeeks · 04/08/2019, 10:20 AM

Got a bunch of frags from a frag swap and a millipore looks to be STNing. My wife called and said it seems like the flesh is coming off, and looks bad from a pic I got, which I'll post in a minute. Is there anything that can be done to help the coral survive?

ReefsandGeeks · 04/08/2019, 10:22 AM

StnIMG_20190408_122148_01.jpg

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ReefsandGeeks · 04/08/2019, 10:24 AM

Maybe better pictureIMG_20190408_122148_01.jpg

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ReefsandGeeks · 04/08/2019, 10:32 AM

Correction, I meant RTN, as this coral was just introduced into the tank less than 24 hours ago and looked great.

billdogg · 04/08/2019, 01:00 PM

Did you dip them or acclimate them in any way? All the others looking good? Did it maybe get bounced around a little during your travels for the frag swap?

LIreefguy · 04/08/2019, 01:08 PM

Most of the time once they start receding there isn’t much you can do to save them

Some cut the frag or colony up hoping to save what’s left

Why it rtn in the first place. Could be several things. Most important imo is the health of your other corals

I would test your water to make sure it’s stable and within the norm for your tank

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ReefsandGeeks · 04/08/2019, 01:09 PM

All frags were floated in the aquarium for at least 20 minutes for temperature acclimation, then were dipped in a bayer insecticide solution for 15 minutes, blown off with turkey baster, then swished in two sucessive containers of tank water prior to being introduced to the aquarium. THe bayer dip, and saltwater rinses wer maintained at the same temp as the display.

I don't think the frag was banged around at all during handling. I was very careful with it. It looked good when I got it home. All of the frags polyps were somewhat retracted after dipping and being put in the aquarium. Looks like maybe the red monti cap I got also is maybe bleaching on the outside a bit? I'm relying off pictures from my wife, but will be home in about 40 minutes to look for myself.

ReefsandGeeks · 04/08/2019, 01:12 PM

I will be retesting my water once I go home, but did check everything 2 days ago after a 20% water change. my Alk was a bit higher than normal, at 11.2 (normally run at 10), Mag was 1400, Ca 460, Nitrate near 0. I did skip my 2 part dose the day before I brought the frags home, so the alk should have dropped back down to about 10, but will verify today.

ReefsandGeeks · 04/08/2019, 01:13 PM

would an iodine dip maybe help at all?

Should I try cutting the frag up in hopes a peice lives, or let it be? wife says it looks the same as it did 3 hours ago, but I haven't seen it myself to know for sure.

LIreefguy · 04/08/2019, 01:14 PM

Could be the person you bought your corals from keeps his alk much lower then 11.
I keep mine at 8.
If you bought corals from me the jump from 8 to 11 could be the cause

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LIreefguy · 04/08/2019, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devastator007

would an iodine dip maybe help at all?

Should I try cutting the frag up in hopes a peice lives, or let it be? wife says it looks the same as it did 3 hours ago, but I haven't seen it myself to know for sure.

Wouldn’t dip again

Imo leaving it might be best. Milli are pretty tough. It might survive but moving it and stressing it might hurt it more

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bshow24 · 04/08/2019, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LIreefguy

Could be the person you bought your corals from keeps his alk much lower then 11.
I keep mine at 8.
If you bought corals from me the jump from 8 to 11 could be the cause

This is exactly what I was thinking. If the corals were sitting at a low alk (very popular nowadays to run between 7 and 9) the jump to 11 is likely going to cause some problems.

On another note, be careful about letting your alk drop that much in a 24 hour period. 11.2 down to 10 in that amount of time can also cause issues for your current SPS. It's best to lower it down/up slowly (I usually do my +/- .1 in a 24 hour period). To avoid that high of a jump, you should always test the water you are going to use in a water change and calculate how much in could increase/decrease your parameters and make adjustments as necessary.

Remember, SPS corals are all about consistency. Even small changes can cause them to RTN or STN.

LIreefguy · 04/08/2019, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bshow24

This is exactly what I was thinking. If the corals were sitting at a low alk (very popular nowadays to run between 7 and 9) the jump to 11 is likely going to cause some problems.

On another note, be careful about letting your alk drop that much in a 24 hour period. 11.2 down to 10 in that amount of time can also cause issues for your current SPS. It's best to lower it down/up slowly (I usually do my +/- .1 in a 24 hour period). To avoid that high of a jump, you should always test the water you are going to use in a water change and calculate how much in could increase/decrease your parameters and make adjustments as necessary.

Remember, SPS corals are all about consistency. Even small changes can cause them to RTN or STN.

100 precent correct.

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murphreef · 04/08/2019, 01:51 PM

How are the other frags / corals in the tank? The monti I see next to the milli looks in rough shape as well.

I would never keep my tanks alk at 11, heck not even 10 dkh....

7.5 to 8.5 is the sweet spot.... I would assume most of your corals look a little off with alk that high.....

Is your tank new? Do you have other sps corals already in the tank? If so how long and how are they doing?

ReefsandGeeks · 04/08/2019, 02:18 PM

Tank up since October, with other SPS that are doing fine and growing. Most of the frags showing some tissue regression when looking close

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bshow24 · 04/08/2019, 04:50 PM

I would assume it may have something to do with the alk changing so much. How big is the tank?

ReefsandGeeks · 04/08/2019, 05:01 PM

It is seeming that way. I took a few close up pictures of everything after I got home and checked a few hours later and all coral look the same, no further tissue regression.

Tank is 150 gallons + sump. Somewhere near 150 gallons total water volume.

I checked main perameters again this afternoon.

Salinity. 37ppt. Slowly working on lowering this
Alk 9.8
Ca 450
Mag 1400
Nitrate near 0

Being that tissue regression seems to have stopped, I am slowly letting the alk lower, slowly lowering the salinity, have decreased the light power and will slowly raise it back up, and redirected a power head so the frags don't have any direct flow from power heads. I haven't cut any of the frags since it seems to be an alk issue and I don't think that cutting the frags will help with that.

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outssider · 04/08/2019, 06:01 PM

It's not just the possible alkalinity change but also could be all the other parameters that might have been different (lighting, nutrient level etc.)

Reef noob_ · 04/09/2019, 06:49 AM

Still too new of a tank IMO for that amount of SPS (only 6 months...) But as stated above, your parameter s were likely too far off the sellers. Just keep things stable and hope for the best.

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ReefsandGeeks · 04/09/2019, 07:07 AM

I did transfer all of the coral and fish from a past tank in October that had been established for 3 years or so. So my current tank has been up and running since October, but the coral, fish, and live rock were all from the same system and just transferred.

I'm hopping I can save most of the new frags by slowly and carefully dropping the salinity and alk, especially the alk. I don't want to risk any issues with my existing coral to try to save the new frags, so only very small changes are being made and just hoping for the best. A couple of the frags appear to be doing better than the others at least, so may not be a total loss. Tougher to tell in the morning with no lights, but everything seemed about the same this morning.

Wish I could say I've never had issues before, but I've had small colonies I've all but given up on before, only to see them jump back and become the biggest coral I currently have all from a mostly algae covered stick from STN. So I'm not giving up until the fight is over. Just wish there was more I could actively do to help other than sit back and watch. Of coarse, if doing nothing is the best action at this point than I'll just have to restrain myself and hope the coral can quickly adapt to a different, but stable environment and recover in time.

Uncle99 · 04/09/2019, 11:46 AM

SPS only do well when all your parameters, especially ALK, are consistent, day in and day out.

They do not tolerate much swing at all

bshow24 · 04/09/2019, 02:00 PM

I'd disagree with this being an "age of tank" issue. I've seen brand new tanks support SPS corals, frags and colonies alike. Reason being, the people running the tanks were far more experienced than even myself and knew how to keep their params consistent.

Just focus on exactly what you said, look into a possible salt mix change to match closer to your desired parameters, and learn from this whole thing.

dkeller_nc · 04/10/2019, 08:48 PM

You don't say whether you have a dosing unit. While in theory it's possible to keep alkalinity stable by manually dosing once a day, in practice it's difficult, particularly when you consider that most tests have an accuracy of about +/- 0.5 dKH. Dosing pumps make this far easier, especially if it's a computer controlled dosing pump like the Neptune Apex D.O.S. that allows continuous small additions throughout the 24 hour cycle.

ReefsandGeeks · 04/11/2019, 07:20 AM

I do currently dose manually once a day and am saving up to buy a doser. Was going to buy a jeabo, but have been steered away from that option based on what seems like inconsistencies and occasional issues. Not something I want to have happening with the type of coral I have.

I think I may split the manual dose into 2 doses, one in the morning and one in the evening to maintain more consistency while I save for a good quality doser.

As far as light acclimation, how quickly should I ramp up my lighting for the new frags? particularly since they have had some tissue damage. Should I ramp up slower than normal?

Quick update: All of the coral frags I bought have the same tissue regression as they did at the end of the day after I got them. I did not cut any of them or do anything other than slowly bring my parameters to more typical levels. Still in process of adjusting my levels, but getting there. The digi seems to have some better PE than it originally did, so that's a nice sign. Hoping everything recovers in time and can come back to their original glory. Would be a shame to lose these frags. Nothing super high end or pricey, but alot of frags I've wanted for a long time in my tank, but just not been available locally.

dkeller_nc · 04/12/2019, 08:07 PM

It's tough to tell about lighting without a PAR meter. Typically, I'll start colonies that I've just purchased at about 150 PAR, then slowly move them up the tank's water column to an eventual PAR of about 300 over the course of several weeks.

04/08/2019, 10:20 AM	#1
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	Help, new frag issue STN Got a bunch of frags from a frag swap and a millipore looks to be STNing. My wife called and said it seems like the flesh is coming off, and looks bad from a pic I got, which I'll post in a minute. Is there anything that can be done to help the coral survive?

04/08/2019, 01:00 PM	#5
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	Did you dip them or acclimate them in any way? All the others looking good? Did it maybe get bounced around a little during your travels for the frag swap? __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer

04/08/2019, 01:08 PM	#6
LIreefguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 98	Help, new frag issue STN Most of the time once they start receding there isn’t much you can do to save them Some cut the frag or colony up hoping to save what’s left Why it rtn in the first place. Could be several things. Most important imo is the health of your other corals I would test your water to make sure it’s stable and within the norm for your tank Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

04/08/2019, 01:51 PM	#14
murphreef Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: simi valley Posts: 3,208	How are the other frags / corals in the tank? The monti I see next to the milli looks in rough shape as well. I would never keep my tanks alk at 11, heck not even 10 dkh.... 7.5 to 8.5 is the sweet spot.... I would assume most of your corals look a little off with alk that high..... Is your tank new? Do you have other sps corals already in the tank? If so how long and how are they doing? __________________ Justin Current Tank Info: 25G cube (finally back in the hobby in a small way)

04/08/2019, 04:50 PM	#16
bshow24 Registered Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA Posts: 584	I would assume it may have something to do with the alk changing so much. How big is the tank? __________________ Tank: Reefer XL 525 Reef Tank Equipment: 2x Radion XR15 Pro, Radion XR30 Pro, Vectra M1 Return, 2x MP40 Powerhead

04/08/2019, 10:22 AM	#2
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	StnIMG_20190408_122148_01.jpg Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

04/08/2019, 10:24 AM	#3
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	Maybe better pictureIMG_20190408_122148_01.jpg Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

04/08/2019, 10:32 AM	#4
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	Correction, I meant RTN, as this coral was just introduced into the tank less than 24 hours ago and looked great.

04/08/2019, 01:09 PM	#7
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	All frags were floated in the aquarium for at least 20 minutes for temperature acclimation, then were dipped in a bayer insecticide solution for 15 minutes, blown off with turkey baster, then swished in two sucessive containers of tank water prior to being introduced to the aquarium. THe bayer dip, and saltwater rinses wer maintained at the same temp as the display. I don't think the frag was banged around at all during handling. I was very careful with it. It looked good when I got it home. All of the frags polyps were somewhat retracted after dipping and being put in the aquarium. Looks like maybe the red monti cap I got also is maybe bleaching on the outside a bit? I'm relying off pictures from my wife, but will be home in about 40 minutes to look for myself.

04/08/2019, 01:12 PM	#8
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	I will be retesting my water once I go home, but did check everything 2 days ago after a 20% water change. my Alk was a bit higher than normal, at 11.2 (normally run at 10), Mag was 1400, Ca 460, Nitrate near 0. I did skip my 2 part dose the day before I brought the frags home, so the alk should have dropped back down to about 10, but will verify today.

04/08/2019, 01:13 PM	#9
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	would an iodine dip maybe help at all? Should I try cutting the frag up in hopes a peice lives, or let it be? wife says it looks the same as it did 3 hours ago, but I haven't seen it myself to know for sure.

04/08/2019, 01:14 PM	#10
LIreefguy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 98	Could be the person you bought your corals from keeps his alk much lower then 11. I keep mine at 8. If you bought corals from me the jump from 8 to 11 could be the cause Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

04/08/2019, 02:18 PM	#15
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	Tank up since October, with other SPS that are doing fine and growing. Most of the frags showing some tissue regression when looking close Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

04/08/2019, 05:01 PM	#17
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	It is seeming that way. I took a few close up pictures of everything after I got home and checked a few hours later and all coral look the same, no further tissue regression. Tank is 150 gallons + sump. Somewhere near 150 gallons total water volume. I checked main perameters again this afternoon. Salinity. 37ppt. Slowly working on lowering this Alk 9.8 Ca 450 Mag 1400 Nitrate near 0 Being that tissue regression seems to have stopped, I am slowly letting the alk lower, slowly lowering the salinity, have decreased the light power and will slowly raise it back up, and redirected a power head so the frags don't have any direct flow from power heads. I haven't cut any of the frags since it seems to be an alk issue and I don't think that cutting the frags will help with that. Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

04/08/2019, 06:01 PM	#18
outssider Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Reseda, Ca. Posts: 1,717	It's not just the possible alkalinity change but also could be all the other parameters that might have been different (lighting, nutrient level etc.) __________________ Please don't feed the bears because the bears will become dependent on free handouts and forget how to take care of themselves …... Current Tank Info: 75 Gal. Mixed reef mostly sps

04/09/2019, 06:49 AM	#19
Reef noob_ Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: holmdel, NJ Posts: 555	Still too new of a tank IMO for that amount of SPS (only 6 months...) But as stated above, your parameter s were likely too far off the sellers. Just keep things stable and hope for the best. Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk __________________ ________________________ New Build in progress http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2528685 90 gallon DT, 65 Gallon Fuge, Chinese LEDs, LPS and Soft coral reef

04/09/2019, 07:07 AM	#20
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	I did transfer all of the coral and fish from a past tank in October that had been established for 3 years or so. So my current tank has been up and running since October, but the coral, fish, and live rock were all from the same system and just transferred. I'm hopping I can save most of the new frags by slowly and carefully dropping the salinity and alk, especially the alk. I don't want to risk any issues with my existing coral to try to save the new frags, so only very small changes are being made and just hoping for the best. A couple of the frags appear to be doing better than the others at least, so may not be a total loss. Tougher to tell in the morning with no lights, but everything seemed about the same this morning. Wish I could say I've never had issues before, but I've had small colonies I've all but given up on before, only to see them jump back and become the biggest coral I currently have all from a mostly algae covered stick from STN. So I'm not giving up until the fight is over. Just wish there was more I could actively do to help other than sit back and watch. Of coarse, if doing nothing is the best action at this point than I'll just have to restrain myself and hope the coral can quickly adapt to a different, but stable environment and recover in time.

04/09/2019, 11:46 AM	#21
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	SPS only do well when all your parameters, especially ALK, are consistent, day in and day out. They do not tolerate much swing at all

04/09/2019, 02:00 PM	#22
bshow24 Registered Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA Posts: 584	I'd disagree with this being an "age of tank" issue. I've seen brand new tanks support SPS corals, frags and colonies alike. Reason being, the people running the tanks were far more experienced than even myself and knew how to keep their params consistent. Just focus on exactly what you said, look into a possible salt mix change to match closer to your desired parameters, and learn from this whole thing. __________________ Tank: Reefer XL 525 Reef Tank Equipment: 2x Radion XR15 Pro, Radion XR30 Pro, Vectra M1 Return, 2x MP40 Powerhead

04/10/2019, 08:48 PM	#23
dkeller_nc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Central NC Posts: 5,062	You don't say whether you have a dosing unit. While in theory it's possible to keep alkalinity stable by manually dosing once a day, in practice it's difficult, particularly when you consider that most tests have an accuracy of about +/- 0.5 dKH. Dosing pumps make this far easier, especially if it's a computer controlled dosing pump like the Neptune Apex D.O.S. that allows continuous small additions throughout the 24 hour cycle.

04/11/2019, 07:20 AM	#24
ReefsandGeeks Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,708	I do currently dose manually once a day and am saving up to buy a doser. Was going to buy a jeabo, but have been steered away from that option based on what seems like inconsistencies and occasional issues. Not something I want to have happening with the type of coral I have. I think I may split the manual dose into 2 doses, one in the morning and one in the evening to maintain more consistency while I save for a good quality doser. As far as light acclimation, how quickly should I ramp up my lighting for the new frags? particularly since they have had some tissue damage. Should I ramp up slower than normal? Quick update: All of the coral frags I bought have the same tissue regression as they did at the end of the day after I got them. I did not cut any of them or do anything other than slowly bring my parameters to more typical levels. Still in process of adjusting my levels, but getting there. The digi seems to have some better PE than it originally did, so that's a nice sign. Hoping everything recovers in time and can come back to their original glory. Would be a shame to lose these frags. Nothing super high end or pricey, but alot of frags I've wanted for a long time in my tank, but just not been available locally.

04/12/2019, 08:07 PM	#25
dkeller_nc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Central NC Posts: 5,062	It's tough to tell about lighting without a PAR meter. Typically, I'll start colonies that I've just purchased at about 150 PAR, then slowly move them up the tank's water column to an eventual PAR of about 300 over the course of several weeks.