Cuprisorb for dinoflagellets??

[Balletomane]

Wow, I've got The Esteemed Randy chiming in on my thread! I'm truly honored. Honestly.

What a scourge dinos can be. I'd bad-mouth them forever if I didn't know that they are responsible for our atmosphere.

If I were younger I'd love to conduct research into how these suckas end up in our glass boxes: introduced by some vector, or the result of chemical mayhem. I'm betting on the latter.

Thanks to all participating here. I'm gracious for the input from some reefing giants!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I hope you get past them!

[tmz]

[QUOTE=shred5;22731348]If you can get a hold of Julians new product give it a try see if it is better...

What product,specifically?

[tmz]

I don't think silicate increases dinofalgellates. Dinos don't have a silicate exoskeleton ;just cell walls made of celulose; Iron or some other minor or trace element or monomer might. Ammonium might be another candidate. Competition from organisms like bacteria, diatoms and macro algae might be helpful.

[shred5]

[QUOTE=tmz;22733764]

Originally Posted by shred5

If you can get a hold of Julians new product give it a try see if it is better...

What product,specifically?

MetaSorb
It changes color based on what it is removing too like polyfilters do..

Kind of interesting if those with dinos used this and it showed high levels of something like iron...

[tmz]

Thanks ;interesting product. It would be helpful if it showed a color to help figure the particualr metal which might be high but it might not show much color until levels are quite high. I'll have to look into it .

[Squidmotron]

Originally Posted by tmz

I don't think silicate increases dinofalgellates. Dinos don't have a silicate exoskeleton ;just cell walls made of celulose; Iron or some other minor or trace element or monomer might. Ammonium might be another candidate. Competition from organisms like bacteria, diatoms and macro algae might be helpful.

We're discussing in the previous page that the correlation may be an indirect one.

[Squidmotron]

Originally Posted by shred5

MetaSorb
It changes color based on what it is removing too like polyfilters do..

Very interesting. I would try it. Unfortunately, it appears to be not out yet.

[tmz]

Originally Posted by Squidmotron

We're discussing in the previous page that the correlation may be an indirect one.

I know food chain and that may be possible at some point, perhaps as diatoms die off.,they might provide a source of organic carbon or N and P and perhaps iron if that matters . Some dinoflagellalte species are mixotrophic; some are heavily heterotrophic; many are primarily photosynthetc. However, the studies I've read suggest more diatoms is accompanied by less dinoflagellaltes and vice versa .

This is one of my posts from the other thread running on dinos:


The cell wall for dinofalgellates is organic and mostly cellulose as best as I can ascertain not silicate. Some species are referred to as armored with thick cellulose areas called theca but not an exoskeleton. A few studies suggest they dominate and diatoms wane when silicate is reduced by the later.

Here are some links that may be of interest:

http://oceandatacenter.ucsc.edu/Phyt...20diatoms.html

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journ...CLIMATE-201204

Searches on dinoflagellates in the sea and dinofalgellate and diatom dominance silica will give more to consider.

Seems to me since diatoms and dinoflagellates are simialr eukaryotic species, they would compete for the same nutrients and elements with diatoms dominating when silca was abundant, while dinofalgelates need more cellulose. I don't think dinofalgellates need diatoms to sequester nutreints and trace elements for them or to produce organic C for them;dinos shuld beable to get them on their own if they are in the water.

[Squidmotron]

Originally Posted by tmz

Seems to me since diatoms and dinoflagellates are simialr eukaryotic species, they would compete for the same nutrients and elements with diatoms dominating when silca was abundant, while dinofalgelates need more cellulose. I don't think dinofalgellates need diatoms to sequester nutreints and trace elements for them or to produce organic C for them;dinos shuld beable to get them on their own if they are in the water.

That competition from diatoms keeps dinos in check is reasonable and quite likely, and I think most of us are aware of it. It's why many people in these dino threads are now experimenting with dosing water glass in their tanks.

But I have not heard of any positive results back from silicate dosing yet. It could be too early. We shall see.

Still, it behooves us to consider alternative theories. If you look at the graph of North Atlantic phytoplankton populations, you'll see that mixotrophic dinos peak shortly after diatoms are at maximum abundance and well before diatoms are gone. They are just behind the curve. And, while the exhausting of silicates corresponds to a competitive advantage for dinos, dinos really only drop off the map shortly after diatoms have done so. In other words, these dinos do not really die off when diatoms are present. They really only die off when ALL primary and secondary food sources are gone and their decline follows somewhat behind the disappearance of both diatoms AND measured nutrients.

To be honest, I do not even know what kind of dinos are common in reefs tanks or precisely what these common species eat. I've been asking that question for years. So I couldn't tell you how worthwhile this is to even consider.

The reason I am willing to consider alternative theories at this point is just the number of reefers who report experiences related to silicates. Posters are extremely dismissive of them so far -- "Ah, they must be confusing diatoms with dinos". But are they? According to Pants, reefers have been surprisingly competent so far at diagnosing their own dinos. And isn't that just a bit unfair to immediately jump to that conclusion? The number of reports is quite high. Do diatoms also stretch toward the light and bubble up? If so, maybe it really is misdiagnosis on a large scale.

I would love nothing more, though, than to be able to beat dinos by dosing silica and generating a competitor diatom population. That would be, in all honestly, COMPLETELY AWESOME.

But I suspect the truth could also be more complicated. I am starting to wonder if dinos don't have multiple food sources, some of which gradually go away in a reef tank and some of which we also can add on our own. So, the reason they may be tricky is that a single strategy (i.e., heavy nitrate/phosphate reduction) works much more slowly. Multiple energy sources may have to be contained, perhaps.

...

But I have obtained a giant bottle of water glass and some silica-related testing kits. I'm going to try some experiments shortly. It will be interesting to see what happens.

[Mark SF]

Originally Posted by dkeller_nc

But you noted that you have an RO system fed from a well (presumably whole-house). If that's the case, all you need is a DI unit to hook to the faucet, and you'll get water that you can have confidence in.

API, for example, makes a convenient standalone DI resin unit that comes with a faucet adapter and is only $40. If you wanted to assemble it yourself, you could probably buy the housing, plumbing parts and resin from BRS for about the same money, but be able to refill the cartridge yourself when exhausted.

Was thinking the same thing. Spectra Pure makes a Max-Cap DI system that includes a silica removal filter as well as the DI. Sounds like you are mixing your own salt anyway.

-Mark

[natas]

Originally Posted by Squidmotron

But I have obtained a giant bottle of water glass and some silica-related testing kits. I'm going to try some experiments shortly. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Let me know if you would like to stop by my place and take some samples of the dino I have to experiment with. They are almost gone, but I expect them to still be in the tank for another week or two at the rate they are dying.

[shred5]

Originally Posted by Mark SF

Was thinking the same thing. Spectra Pure makes a Max-Cap DI system that includes a silica removal filter as well as the DI. Sounds like you are mixing your own salt anyway.

-Mark

When I first got dinos I added a rental r/o system but after I bit I moved up too a Kent hi-s system, which uses basically the same d/i resins as the spectra pure silca cart... I may have even used the spectra pure silica buster d/i carts as a replacement since I like spectrapure over other brands. I dont ever remember that making a difference. If I remember correctly it may have got worse. The more I did to improve water quality the worse they got.


Again this was a long time ago.. I had kept that aquarium for years and all I did was improve water quality and as I did improve they kept getting worse.. This tank had been set up for years before they hit too.. At one point they had got so bad that I could skim them off the top of the water with a net. It was insane and they stunk so bad. Fought them for like 5 years always living in the same place. After that never had a issue with them.. I would occasionally see them during cycle or times of neglect but been dino free for probably 15 -20 years now..

They are the worst.

[Squidmotron]

Originally Posted by natas

Let me know if you would like to stop by my place and take some samples of the dino I have to experiment with. They are almost gone, but I expect them to still be in the tank for another week or two at the rate they are dying.

They are almost gone? And is this what you attributed to Cuprisorb?

[Squidmotron]

My 4 day "lights out" experiment is complete. Dinos back to nearly full strength within 24 hours. All GFO changed in the interim.

Silicates measured. I am not measuring much in the way of silicates. If the "pink somoa" sand I added introduced silicates, it wasn't much or they were consumed immediately. Could something else in the sand have fueled dinos?

At what silicate level might I expect a diatom bloom to be noticeable in a reef tank?

I ask because I may try dosing silicates soon.

..

I have a question, though...after lights were back on I noticed that there were little white strands (strings?) everywhere that had bloomed in the dark. All over the glass and everything. In spots where algae might normally bloom in the light. They are small to the naked eye. It would be hard for me to take a picture of them. Any clue what those might be? Bacteria bloom, maybe? I dunno. I lack the knowledge. I wonder if THAT means something.

[natas]

Yup Cuprisorb is the only thing I have changed the past 3 weeks.

[shred5]

Originally Posted by Squidmotron

My 4 day "lights out" experiment is complete. Dinos back to nearly full strength within 24 hours. All GFO changed in the interim.

Silicates measured. I am not measuring much in the way of silicates. If the "pink somoa" sand I added introduced silicates, it wasn't much or they were consumed immediately. Could something else in the sand have fueled dinos?

At what silicate level might I expect a diatom bloom to be noticeable in a reef tank?

I ask because I may try dosing silicates soon.

..

I have a question, though...after lights were back on I noticed that there were little white strands (strings?) everywhere that had bloomed in the dark. All over the glass and everything. In spots where algae might normally bloom in the light. They are small to the naked eye. It would be hard for me to take a picture of them. Any clue what those might be? Bacteria bloom, maybe? I dunno. I lack the knowledge. I wonder if THAT means something.

Well it could be like phosphates and even though they measure low the algae is consuming them and giving you a false reading..

I just aint sure silicates have anything to do with it..

But anything is worth a try..

So did this start after adding the sand?

[Squidmotron]

Originally Posted by shred5

Well it could be like phosphates and even though they measure low the algae is consuming them and giving you a false reading..

I just aint sure silicates have anything to do with it..

But anything is worth a try..

So did this start after adding the sand?

Phosphates I have done to death. Never measured any with 3 different testing methods even after pushing dinos back to the brink with a 10 day lights out program.

You can always say "the algae is consuming them" but it's not useful information because it gives me no real instructions on what to do or not do. I have doubled, tripled, quadrupled inorganic phosphate extraction while curbing feeding blindly guessing that phosphates were getting eaten by dinos and only really succeeding in killing coral. The same with trying to remove organics by stepping up carbon/protein skimmer. It just doesn't appear to kill them before it kills coral.

The only time I've been dino free I was really overfeeding and had green film algae starting to come back. This is what I may try again if I become truly concerned.

As far as the dinos starting after the sand? Nope. I had dinos slowly starting to creep back in my tank, but it was always pretty manageable. In basically a couple of small spots. I was not even stressed out. They weren't growing past a certain point. But I became curious as to why they were not appearing in my refugium and added some sand in there. Within hours after doing that, snotty long bubbly dinos were everywhere in both the refugium and the main display tank. That's what got me thinking outside the box a bit. To tell you the truth, they are not even that bad now. They are just triple what they were before the sand.

[Steveb]

Originally Posted by natas

Yup Cuprisorb is the only thing I have changed the past 3 weeks.

Any updates?

Also is the resin changing color at all?

What amount are you using vs. # of gallons? If you already covered that just let me know and I will go read through the thread again.

[natas]

Yes the resin is changing color. I don't know offhand how much I am using, but I basically went with the recommendation.

Whats interesting now is I don't think I have any dino, but I now have cyano in my sump area. I am ok with this. I am going to continue to run the cuprisorb for a few more weeks until I feel safe that the dino is all gone

[Squidmotron]

Originally Posted by natas

Yes the resin is changing color. I don't know offhand how much I am using, but I basically went with the recommendation.

Whats interesting now is I don't think I have any dino, but I now have cyano in my sump area. I am ok with this. I am going to continue to run the cuprisorb for a few more weeks until I feel safe that the dino is all gone

Very very interesting.

If you don't mind, I have a couple questions.

1) How much Cuprisorb are you using? The exact recommended amount for your tank size or more or less? Did you say it was in a cannister filter (can't remember)?
2) Are you also doing lights out periods or is the recession of dinos happening with full lights on?
3) Do you have a refugium with plants? If so, what is happening to them while you are running Curpisorb? Are they dying back at all?
4) Are you also running phosphate reducers?
5) What is your feeding schedule? Every day?
6) What do you guess the Cuprisorb is sucking up that dinos need? Iron?
7) Do you have the variety of dinos that start on the sand bed? How deep is your display sand bed? Do you stir it a lot?

Thank you very much for humoring me here.

[natas]

I am using the recommended amount. I put mine in a little mesh baggie in my sump in an area with Flow.

I stopped lights out so they went away with my full lighting schedule.

I do have a refugium with chaeto in it. Growth doesn't seems to be affected.

I just started dosing carbon again. So Chaeto and carbon dosing have me setting at 0.02 phosphate as of yesterday. I will let you know if the carbon dosing brings the Dino back. I intend to get rid of Chaeto eventually.

I give the tangs nori everyday and my auto feeder feeds the tank once a day with pellets. So I would say my feeding is low to medium. I also started dosing amino acids again since Dino is gone. Again trying to see if it comes back from any of my normal tank task.

If I had to guess it would be iron that cuprisorb got rid of and depleted which slowed down and killed off dino. I say this because I had a pump that was rusting. Once I discovered this I realized the Dino showed itself a few weeks after adding the pump.

Yes the Dino I have start on the sand bed and mostly live there. I do see them on the rocks sometimes but if I am being 100% honest about that I would have to say I am not sure if it has ever lightly coated my rocks. Unfortunately I am color blind so if this stuff was on my rock it would have to be thick and containing bubbles or stringy for me to see. I can say when it was at its strongest it was very thick on the sandbed, stringy and tons of bubbles by midday. In the morning it would look like a bad case of diatom.

The Dino to my eyes is brown, the wife described it as a rust color. What I have in my sump is purple to my eyes so I am very confident that what I now have is cyano....and I am so happy to have that issue instead of Dino.

[Squidmotron]

Your dinos sound exactly like mine.

For the past 10 days I have been maintaining higher than 0 silicate levels with the occasional addition of small amounts of water glass (verified finite levels by silicate test kit). I had read a couple of studies which suggested that diatoms might outcompete many species of planktonic dinoflagellates for the same nutrients if there are abundant silicates present. Unfortunately, I just wound up with both so far. Looking under a microscope is really interesting. Millions of dinos and the occasional interesting diatom structure.

It could be that this is not enough time for enough diatoms to bloom, but my dinos have no reached dangerous levels anyway, so I can't afford to carry on this particular experiment indefinitely. The zoas near the bottom of the tank are closing up. This is closest to the highest concentration of dinos.

..

So, what the hell. I will now try the curprisorb thing. I put some bags in various places as well as about half the requisite amount an amount in a filter.

We will see how the curprisorb works.

Mine will not be a pure experiment though. I have to shut the lights off for a few days. It's too dangerous otherwise, at this point.

[Wills612]

First day trying the Cuprisorb as well.

[Steveb]

Must be a party LOL.... wish I wasn't invited... I'm on day 2.