Sand Bed Vacuum Test - Phosphate Liberation?

[GPB]

The water I get out of my SSB every week is noticeably dirty. I was concerned about losing pods etc. I let the water settle, pour off the water and carefully and inspect the detritus at the bottom of the bucket. So far I've seen very few amphipods. Just about 3-4 per water change. I find equal amounts of them in my filter sock when I change it. Now if there are smaller copepods present I'm just not seeing them.

I used to have a CC DSB and it was a filthy nutrient sink. Never again. If this doesn't work out I'm going Barebottom.

[LouH]

I had a three day weekend, so I was able to resume the cleaning of sand in my system. This week I attacked my refugium which is a 20 gallon or so DIY tank with a 3" DSB with live rock over it. The live rock over the sand is elevated with plexiglass stands that I constructed. I decided to remove the live rock in the refugium and relocate them to a light diffuser plenum over the Brute garbage can DSB. The plexiglass stands got tossed in the trash. I then vacuumed the top inch of the refugium DSB, and to my surprise, it was not as dirty as I expected it to be. It was moderately cloudy for sure, but not the dark brown/green color that I get from the main display. A bigger problem was regional clumping which probably hurts gas infiltration into the top layer of the DSB. I believe that this was the result of poor water flow between the rock stands and the top of the sand bed.

One notable observation was that I didn't find a single pod at the bottom of the three 5 pails that I siphoned sand into. So, from a pod production perspective, the refugium/DSB combo isn't doing much to help produce pods. However, through the side viewing pane of the refugium DSB, there are plenty of worm tunnels into the sand, and down to pretty significant depths. I have to believe that the benthic invertibrate community has to add some value for my system.

Lou

[Dog boy Dave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0mN3...feature=relmfu
Some good stuff.

[mess7777]

interesting discussion, aside from the deterioration near the middle. I am having some issues with corals that are on the sandbed, maybe it is time to start cleaning it more often.

[fishoutawater]

I put a piece of tubing on the end of a maxi jet and use it to blow out the sand bed weekly on all the tanks I work on. Unless it is extremely clogged with detritus, the corals love it, the fish usually follow me around with the power head, and I can reach areas that will never accommodate a gravel vac tube. The tanks cloud up from 10 minutes to a couple hours depending on how dirty it was, and how efficient the filtration is.
I have not ever lost an animal to this practice, even when the water is so dirty you can not see into the tank more than a few inches through the glass.
None of these tanks have a sand bed over 3" thick.

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by fishoutawater

I put a piece of tubing on the end of a maxi jet and use it to blow out the sand bed weekly on all the tanks I work on. Unless it is extremely clogged with detritus, the corals love it, the fish usually follow me around with the power head, and I can reach areas that will never accommodate a gravel vac tube. The tanks cloud up from 10 minutes to a couple hours depending on how dirty it was, and how efficient the filtration is.
I have not ever lost an animal to this practice, even when the water is so dirty you can not see into the tank more than a few inches through the glass.
None of these tanks have a sand bed over 3" thick.

What you're suggesting obviously can be done successfully. It doesn't come without risks, however. Some very substantial risks.

One of the times Eric Borneman crashed his tank, he did it by disturbing a filthy sand bed like you describe. There have been many others with similar results.

In this article, Borneman describes how he did it. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...UwCQ-XfzwRH3kg

From the link.
"Some aquarists had been suggesting that it might be a good idea to stir sand beds and release the accumulated detritus for removal by skimmers and to provide particulate foods for the corals. Already long considering the lack of particulates in the water column and ways to provide them, but not having given much thought to sedimentary microbiology or changes to water chemistry by stirring these sediments, it sounded like a good idea. So I stirred my sand beds a few times over a period of a week. Initially, I was impressed as the coral polyps opened and fed on the material that clouded the water column. A week later, most of my Acroporids began sloughing tissue, and I had my first really serious bout with what was then called "rapid tissue necrosis." It wiped out most of my corals, and it spawned my interest in what would eventually become one of the major subjects of the dissertation that I am now in the process of completing.

Lesson Learned: Sand beds are great, but are best left alone. They harbor huge populations of microbes, many of which are opportunistically, indirectly, or directly pathogenic to aquarium inhabitants (and humans). The changes in redox that occur in sand beds, along with disruption of anoxic pockets that may contain hydrogen sulfide, wreak havoc on all manner of water column parameters and can result in the death of virtually every fish and invertebrate in the tank. They are not nutrient bombs, but do need to be understood for proper function in an aquarium."

IMHO, Borneman learned the wrong lesson here. To me, this would be like stepping out of bed, onto a rattle snake, and getting bit. Later that day, while laying in a hospital bed, you tell your loved ones that you've learned your lesson. From now on, you'll watch where you put your feet, so you don't step on that rattle snake again. No one in their right mind would come to such a conclusion. Most rational minded people would be thinking of ways to remove the rattle snake from their home so they don't have to worry about stepping on it again.

Where sand beds are concerned, it is the detritus/rotting organic matter/filth, that leads to death within our systems. The tiny particles of calcium carbonate themselves pose no danger. Wouldn't it then be logical to remove this detritus/rotting organic matter/filth so we don't have to worry about it getting disturbed, and killing our pets?

[gasman059]

Originally Posted by Dog boy Dave

I am amazed to hear every one here chiming in as if all sand beds were the same. I keep a remote deep sand bed. Its about ten inches deep, very fine and much older than most experts say they can be kept. I do not vacuum it nor do i disturb it much. It is effective and i can manage the nutrient level in my system to control the growth on the surface of the sand at will. Usually deep sand beds like this are unsucessful long term when attempted in a main display. In the past it was common to attempt them though. When kept in the main display, they usually crashed withn five to ten years. However I have seen them last longer. I have also seen corals die the day after these older deep sand beds were disturbed. I have seen it more than once in several systems. In these same systems normal water changes did not affect the corals imediate health. Usually when i see sand in a main display it is not set up as functioning deep sand bed system. Of course you should have a method to export nutrients from your substrate. Vacuuming it is probably a good idea. But please do not confuse a layer of sand in your main display or even worse in someone elses with a mature deep sand bed system. Anyone who does so will risk the life of their corals.

I agree with the above- the post refers to stirring DEEP sand Beds and not to what the common hobbyist think its a DEEp sand bed.
A small layer of sand can and whould be stirred evry so often, but stirring a deep sand bed is no different IMHO and IME than adding vinegar or poison directly to your tank.

All environments are different but an acro tank will not tolerate this.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by gasman059

A small layer of sand can and whould be stirred evry so often, but stirring a deep sand bed is no different IMHO and IME than adding vinegar or poison directly to your tank.

Uh, have you missed the trend toward dosing vinegar? I add it every day, and think it a good plan for many tanks.

[gasman059]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Uh, have you missed the trend toward dosing vinegar? I add it every day, and think it a good plan for many tanks.

LMAO Sorry Randy I did not mean that literally LOL.

I guess I should have posted something like gasoline LOL
U got me there.

[jsjonesrdh]

In my prior tank, I siphoned my bed from day one. To me, it seems like common sence to keep the organic matter that settles deep within the bed out from the beginning. I the current tank I will be doing the same.

I could understand how beginning to clean a neglected bed may cause spikes in nitrates and phosphates due to the suspended detritus but a clean bed does not cloud a tank in the same manner. In the past I have taken nitrate and phosphate readings after siphoning and I never had any measurable spike in either.

As for loosing some worms and smaller micro fauna, sure I lost a few but I never saw a noticible decline or eradication of species. The amount of these organisms still living within the rock that can not be cleaned was more than enough to keep populations reproducing.

[jsjonesrdh]

Also, lets leave "you mad bro" to the gamers forums please

[LouH]

Well, I had to move again because my landlord decided to put his house on the market. This time I decided to try a bare bottomed tank. The results are significantly better than any set-up I've had before. I still run a remote DSB, but having no sand makes it easy to see how much fish poop has accumulated in the display, and I know when it is truly clean after maintenance. I think that what happens with a sand bed is that you end up getting lazy and not siphoning out the sand to clean it. Inevitable it leads to poor water quality, and the corals suffer.

Being so lucky, I've had the privilege of moving my tank a total of 4 times since 2007 . With each move of my system, I have observed immediate coral growth from corals that refused to grow prior to the move. That is why I decided to go with no sand in the display after the last move (October 2012). All corals, (yes, plenty of SPS), are growing and have decent color. I'm sticking with this configuration for a while.

Lou

[snowcarver75]

Originally Posted by LouH

Well, I had to move again because my landlord decided to put his house on the market. This time I decided to try a bare bottomed tank. The results are significantly better than any set-up I've had before. I still run a remote DSB, but having no sand makes it easy to see how much fish poop has accumulated in the display, and I know when it is truly clean after maintenance. I think that what happens with a sand bed is that you end up getting lazy and not siphoning out the sand to clean it. Inevitable it leads to poor water quality, and the corals suffer.

Being so lucky, I've had the privilege of moving my tank a total of 4 times since 2007 . With each move of my system, I have observed immediate coral growth from corals that refused to grow prior to the move. That is why I decided to go with no sand in the display after the last move (October 2012). All corals, (yes, plenty of SPS), are growing and have decent color. I'm sticking with this configuration for a while.

Lou

This sort of effect is seen when we do major water changes. I'm not saying BB is better or worse, it's that that it's just inconclusive in your case.

If you don't clean your liverocks, next thing we will have is a discussion on liverock-less tanks.

[Reefin' Dude]

the point is to match your system setup to the organisms one wants to keep. the time of everyone thinking they can setup the tank the same and maintain it the same for all organisms needs to end.

it is easier to maintain an oligotrophic system if you can keep an eye on all of the detritus. it makes more sense for these systems to be BB. it is easier to maintain low levels of inorganic nutrients for more eutrophic systems with a substrate so it make sense for these reef systems to have a substrate.

G~

[channingd]

I'm going to label my method as "tweeker". I've maintained tanks for business and personal for years and now only keep mine. I vacuum my gravel once a month. Different spots, kind of like your 11% thing. I then let that water and gunk settle in the bucket and, well here's the tweeker part, I look for life in my bucket, ie: brittle stars and pods and then put them back in my tank. I know "tweeker". My parameters have always stayed stable and I have had several different setups and methods of filtration. I think the wave hitting the tidepool sums it up.

[sczlars]

I'm thinking of starting partial vacuuming. I'm running a shallow sand bed of 1-2 inches, that hasn't had any maintenance in at least a year (last tank move 15g -> 20g), and if anything has shrunk. I know a lot of detritus has accumulated from feeding the fish. That said, things (LPS, acros, etc) are growing fine and looking good, so I don't feel pressed to do anything about it. Stable parameters, and undetectable nitrate and phosphate (salifert kits)

--Lars

[Nano sapiens]

Originally Posted by sczlars

I'm thinking of starting partial vacuuming. I'm running a shallow sand bed of 1-2 inches, that hasn't had any maintenance in at least a year (last tank move 15g -> 20g), and if anything has shrunk. I know a lot of detritus has accumulated from feeding the fish. That said, things (LPS, acros, etc) are growing fine and looking good, so I don't feel pressed to do anything about it. Stable parameters, and undetectable nitrate and phosphate (salifert kits)

--Lars

In Nano tanks we see the effects of detritus buildup in a sand bed more quickly (typically 8 months to 2 years, depending on a whole host of conditions). In a larger system, the negative effects take more time to manifest, but you will very likely notice increasing NO3 and PO4 levels as the SB becomes clogged/ineffective and the substrate saturated with phosphate.

[dastowers]

When you go BB do you put the plate corals and sand bed loving corals on the glass?

Lots of great information in this thread.

[Reefin' Dude]

you can, but sometimes the coralline growing on the glass can irritate those corals when expanded. what worked for me is to put the coral on a small piece of PVC pipe. use the pipe as a stand.

it does become a bit of a battle though. the sand loving corals love the sand for a reason. they come from a different environment than the outer reef corals. it becomes a question of which corals do you want to optimize the health for with respect to maintenance?

G~

[dastowers]

Went BB today. I used "used" live sand when I setup this mixed reef. My phosphates were really bad. 2.0 yeah.... Huge flow, sump, refugium, less feeding, chaeto, water changes..it sucked. Well, last night after reading until my eyes shut themselves- and DREAMING about removing the crushed coral/sand combo. I spent the morning and removed 3 five gallon buckets full of yuck!! Only way I can describe it. Tank has only been up for 2 months (moved 75 gallon reef to 150 gallon) but the "used" live sand I purchased when I bought a reef tank to supplement the 75 for the 150g was full of phosphates it was leaching. I know the rocks will be leaching too. Just installed a BRS double reactor with GFO and Carbon today. After the sand removal- which the corals and most fish were removed- I did a WC of 40 gallons. Now - 3 hours later- the water tests .25 for phosphates.

As for the bubble coral - it is in a short juice glass full of sand until I can get something a little more pleasant to look at.

[asylumdown]

The one thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that decaying organic matter isn't a limitless source of nutrients. There is a finite amount of nitrogen and phosphorous in any piece of organic matter, and once that piece of matter has been broken down as far as it can be, it won't release anything else.

Has anyone ever taken those piles of detritus that build up on the bottom of a bare-bottom tank/in the corner of a sump and analyzed them chemically? How many nutrients are actually left in that mulm?

[Reefin' Dude]

you are somewhat right. it does get a bit complicated though. even if some of it does not break down further it does indicate an increase in total mass of the system. in most cases this end detritus will accumulate in a substrate and starts to choke out resources needed by the other organisms for their biological functions. i also thought the point was that this does not happen. it all gets converted to algae.

what if it does not break down further? what is it doing for us in the system?

something that i have found referred to as end detritus. something that can not be broken down or wants to be used by anything. i would put marine snow into this category. the left overs from all of the biological activity in the upper levels of the ocean. looking up the composition of marine snow should be a good start.

G~

[dastowers]

I know this is only day two of going BB but wow! PE is great in the SPS and LPS corals (some could be better). Fish are happy. Left a spot of sand in the back of tank walled in by rock for the M. Wrasse. Love that guy. Have noticed I have huge bristleworms. Last night the longest one was over 12 inches. My goodness- the things you can see when your fuge light is uplighting the tank at night.

Phosphate tested at between 0.0 and .25 today. The color was split in the middle.
As an engineer (we control what we can) BB takes out a lot of variables.

There is a large sump with a refugium (chaeto/rubble) on the left- BRS reactor just hooked up and not in place.... and a 30 gallon stand alone POD FARM on the right.

[dastowers]

None of the rocks are against the back wall. Created a pyramid base so all are very solidly placed.

[dastowers]