165w led auto dimming with apex NO VDM

[ThisGuy12]

I don't know if replacement drivers are available for those units as the driver that comes built in runs approx 24 LEDs @ 3w each per channel (if I'm not mistaken those fixtures have 55-60 LEDs built in), it's been awhile since I've opened up my fixture.

Most recommended meanwell drivers can only handle 9-15 LEDs @ 3w each.

http://www.rapidled.com/mean-well-el...mmable-driver/

Is the driver I would use if I were to rebuild my fixture, the cost to re-build it would exceed the cost of a new unit with the dimming features already built in. It's why most people either build their own LED fixture or live with on/off functionality of the el-cheapo chinese knockoffs.

I guess if the LEDs draw less than 1w each then it should work.... but I don't feel like wasting my money to find out lol. It all comes down to amperage, draw (wattage), and capacity of the driver/LEDs.

[karimwassef]

They run at a very high voltage ~ 3.6V x 24 ~ 90V!!!

I wouldn't touch it again.

I'd rewire the LEDs into a more sane configuration ~ 10x = 36V? then use a high voltage meanwell driver like and LDD-H at about ~1A each.

I blew up a few of those things, so I salvaged the LEDs and fixtures and made one larger one myself: I used a 48V Voltage Supply (goes down to ~36V for the string of 10 leds) with 10 meanwells on 10 strings at 0.7A (2.5W) each for a 250W fixture (100 LEDs).

[Vdubin00]

Karimwassef ,, that was my problem trying to find a power supply that would handle the voltage of these lights I think each driver goes up to like 240v or maybe that's total so each driver is 120v ,, that's still a lot !!

[karimwassef]

it's also DC, not AC. Be careful.

[karimwassef]

Better yet. Throw them away and start fresh. LED DIYs are pretty easy these days.

Just get a few multichip LEDs, hook them up to CPU heatsinks/fan and run them each with a constant current digitally variable driver..

$25 gets 100W ... just need the driver

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-100-Wat...r/301713724909

Here's someone who did just that:
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f7...re-199365.html

[Vdubin00]

So here's my lights with my Ethernet cables connected to my dimmer pot wires,, yes I know wire nuts are cheap and I could've used rj45 jacks ,, I know I know,, after spending $550 money was a lil tight,, I'll wire those later ::



Here is the Ethernet plugs in my apex module :


And here is a screen shot of my lighting codes,, this one Is of my EB8;;



This one is the code for my variable speed ports :::

[Vdubin00]

So there it is everyone

[karimwassef]

good work.. I hope your dimmers are more resilient/robust than usual

[Vdubin00]

Let's hope so ! Althought it honestly doesn't make sense why they wouldn't work they came with dimmer knobs they can handle dimming ,, they can handle a half hour of dimming in the morning and a half hour of dimming at night,,

[Vdubin00]

It just like I'm sitting there twisting the dinner knob slowly for a half hour In the morning ! And twisting the dinner knob for half hour at night ??? I don't understand your reasoning ? It doesn't make sense ,,

[karimwassef]

It would have likely broken that way too.

It's not what you did to it that degrades it... lower cost components just fail earlier.

[Vdubin00]

Well I can guarantee that If you open up any expensive led fixtures you'll find components from china so what's that say ?

[karimwassef]

not all components from China are the same. There is high quality and low quality ... high performance and low performance.. where they come from isn't the point.

[ThisGuy12]

Can you post a picture of where you tied the other end of the wires into? If I understand your process correctly you tied them directly into the POTs.

These lights do not run at 240v FYI, they run at 120v DC. The drivers also run a stupid amount of amperage through the LEDs which is why everyone is suggesting this will eventually fail.

These drivers are not designed to restrict the voltage like a normal dimming driver, they use very cheap resistors and capacitors. I give you credit for innovation unfortunately many (including myself) have done the same prior to you and each time it didn't last.

I agree with karim, you're better off salvaging the housing and LED strings and building your own lightfixture using new meanwell drivers. The last thing you want is for the chinese knockoff drivers to send stray voltage back through your Apex Neptune.

For the record the difference between you sitting there and manually dimming the driver and the Apex running it is the digital signal the Apex sends, the signal carries a small amount of voltage which will end up pushing the drivers beyond their limit.

[Vdubin00]

What led light were using,, when this happened to you ?

[Vdubin00]

I'm sorry for the arguing but what you say doesn't make sense,, my dimmer work off 0-12v analog,, and the speed ports use a supply voltage of 0-10v,, and my drivers push 500-550 am per channel that doesn't seem any different then any other driver,, in fact those ldd-h drivers push 600-1000 ma ,, so how is that a danger,, your telling me to replace my drivers cuz they push too much mA and replace them with a driver that pushes MORE mA,, no offense it sounds like you may not no what your talking about and may be talking with sure ignorance ! Not cool man !! Can you provide numbers? Proof ?? Something to support this ??

[ThisGuy12]

Originally Posted by Vdubin00

What led light were using,, when this happened to you ?

The exact same fixture you have.

Originally Posted by Vdubin00

I'm sorry for the arguing but what you say doesn't make sense,, my dimmer work off 0-12v analog,, and the speed ports use a supply voltage of 0-10v,, and my drivers push 500-550 am per channel that doesn't seem any different then any other driver,, in fact those ldd-h drivers push 600-1000 ma ,, so how is that a danger,, your telling me to replace my drivers cuz they push too much mA and replace them with a driver that pushes MORE mA,, no offense it sounds like you may not no what your talking about and may be talking with sure ignorance ! Not cool man !! Can you provide numbers? Proof ?? Something to support this ??

You need to relax. Again, the problem is the cheap chinese knockoff drivers, they aren't designed for continual up/down voltage/amperage changes even though they are listed as dimmable.

I know exactly what I am talking about and so does karim. I have burnt out one driver already using the same method you are doing except my controller was an Arduino Corallux Storm II with a 0-10v converter. It sends the exact same signals as your Apex Neptune.

The setup worked fine for about 2 weeks then what I can only assume happened is the components started to degrade and acted up, the driver would cause my LEDs to flicker during ramping almost a strobe like effect. One day the driver just stopped working entirely, so I opened it up, one of the internal resistors was burnt.

I haven't bothered to put a multimeter on it because the other channel started showing the exact same signs so I simply reverted it back to on/off at set levels.

You don't see many "how to" threads on modifying these units permanently because the modifications are only temporary and don't last.

*EDIT* This is the spec on virtually all "full spectrum dimmable 165w" chinese knockoff LEDs.
-LED 165w(55*3w) Input voltage AC 85~264V
-Lumens 5050 Lm Working current 300ma

The alternating current (AC) is why this doesn't work long term combined with the cheap components used = failure waiting to happen.

[Vdubin00]

Ok,, so then how is it that people with marsaqua lights and reef breeder lights have had their lights for years with no problems then ?? They are the exact same light ?

[theatrus]

The Chinese LED black boxes are optimized for one thing only: cost. You'll find the shoddiest possible design with the most marginal parts throughout to get it working.

If I buy parts, even with a country of origin of China, from a well respected supplier, I know what I'm getting will meet its specifications. A lot of "made in china" parts will even use US components (for instance, Texas Instruments still does a large percentage of their semiconductor fabrication in the US, and then ships the wafers out to Malaysia for packaging, and my final assembly contractor might put them on a PCB in China). Then, in a design, I will add in margin for voltage, temperature, etc, so I know the lifetime of a design will be long and variances in parts and operating conditions are accounted for. All of this costs money. You could spend infinite money making it last forever anywhere, but true engineering is knowing where on the cost spectrum you have the best returns.

I'm not saying the "big reef brands" actually do a good job (maybe I should do a tear down thread of electronics if someone wants to donate some Radions and Kessils for the purpose ), but they'll at least have solid design tradeoffs because they don't want those parts coming back to them broken or someone's house on fire (PR hit, huge cost associated, etc). For a fly-by-night-brand-reseller of Chinese components, it matters a lot less (remember Odyssea?)

[Vdubin00]

Well ,, I'll let you know if I ever have a prob, agree to disagree,,

[ThisGuy12]

Originally Posted by Vdubin00

Ok,, so then how is it that people with marsaqua lights and reef breeder lights have had their lights for years with no problems then ?? They are the exact same light ?

But they aren't. The internals and components are not the exact same lights. You're comparing a chinese knockoff to tried/tested/true designs that are made to function the way you have modified your fixture to work (ramping, delays, etc).

Originally Posted by theatrus

The Chinese LED black boxes are optimized for one thing only: cost. You'll find the shoddiest possible design with the most marginal parts throughout to get it working.

If I buy parts, even with a country of origin of China, from a well respected supplier, I know what I'm getting will meet its specifications. A lot of "made in china" parts will even use US components (for instance, Texas Instruments still does a large percentage of their semiconductor fabrication in the US, and then ships the wafers out to Malaysia for packaging, and my final assembly contractor might put them on a PCB in China). Then, in a design, I will add in margin for voltage, temperature, etc, so I know the lifetime of a design will be long and variances in parts and operating conditions are accounted for. All of this costs money. You could spend infinite money making it last forever anywhere, but true engineering is knowing where on the cost spectrum you have the best returns.

I'm not saying the "big reef brands" actually do a good job (maybe I should do a tear down thread of electronics if someone wants to donate some Radions and Kessils for the purpose ), but they'll at least have solid design tradeoffs because they don't want those parts coming back to them broken or someone's house on fire (PR hit, huge cost associated, etc). For a fly-by-night-brand-reseller of Chinese components, it matters a lot less (remember Odyssea?)

Haha do it! I'm in for a teardown component vs component vs component thread. That could get expensive though :P Results would be neat for sure!

Originally Posted by Vdubin00

Well ,, I'll let you know if I ever have a prob, agree to disagree,,

I'm not trying to discourage you at all, only to shed light to the fact that others have done what you did and share some experience. I hope it works. But suggesting you have have found a permanent end all be all solution is completely wrong.

[Vdubin00]

Have you seen the reef breeder light dude ::
Here's the outside reef breeders


Here's the inside reef breeders


In fact look at that it even has Chinese written on the driver !!



Here's the outside of my wellpar


Here's the inside:


Just sayin' !!

[ThisGuy12]

You don't get it do you. Open up the black boxes, IE the drivers then you'll see.

Wait. If you didn't open the drivers to attach a connector to your Apex, which lines did you tap into exactly?

*EDIT* right from reefbreeders website:
Q: Can any of the Reef Breeders LED fixtures be controlled by an Apex or Reef Keeper controller?

A: No, they cannot​​ be controlled with 0-10v or PWM dimming.

https://www.reefbreeders.com/faq/

[Vdubin00]

In one of my first responses I said i connect my DIMMER KNOBS DIM + , and DIM -,, I opened my driver to verify which wire was which !! It says on the pcb board inside the driver,, I am not connected to my driver only my dimmer knob ! And if you look at the pictures I posted,, both the reef breeders and the wellpar, marsaqua , SB reef lights,, all have the same drivers !! Those 2 black boxes inside the fixture ! Are the drivers,, and they are not just drivers they are converters AC/DC converters also !! So all of these lights have the same driver : marsaqua, wellpar, reefbreeders value, SB reef lights value,, they all have the same driver ,,

[ThisGuy12]

Originally Posted by Vdubin00

In one of my first responses I said i connect my DIMMER KNOBS DIM + , and DIM -,, I opened my driver to verify which wire was which !! It says on the pcb board inside the driver,, I am not connected to my driver only my dimmer knob ! And if you look at the pictures I posted,, both the reef breeders and the wellpar, marsaqua , SB reef lights,, all have the same drivers !! Those 2 black boxes inside the fixture ! Are the drivers,, and they are not just drivers they are converters AC/DC converters also !! So all of these lights have the same driver : marsaqua, wellpar, reefbreeders value, SB reef lights value,, they all have the same driver ,,

How do you know they are the exact same drivers without opening each of them up? The components inside each of the HOUSING boxes are often cheaper to reduce costs of the fixtures. Which leads back to the point we have been trying to make to you.

You're connected to the dimmer knob circuit which also controls on/off functionality of the light. It is not a PWM. I bet if you drop below the threshold of the POT you will see your lights flicker it will be barely noticeable but it will happen.

I'm not going to argue with you man, clearly you can't grasp why these units are cheap and the differences between cheap components and good components. I'm glad it works for you but again, don't suggest this is a fix that anyone can or should do as it is only temporary.